30/40 Krag & 5744/150gr.?

[Tedly]

Looking for a start charge using AA5744 & 150 gr.boolits in my 1898 Krag sporter. The boolit will No. 2 alloy and approx. 150gr. Should I go with unsized and hand CG/lubed ? Groove dia. checks .310 or would it be better to size to .312 or .311 or just shoot as cast at .310? In any event , with jacketed gun will easily do a 10 shot group you can cover witha match book at 100 yds...including "fliers""...what do you say?

[RayinNH]

Ted, can't help with the powder charge. You may have trouble sizing to .311 or .312 if the as cast diameter is .310. If your groove size is .310, then sizing to .311 or .312 would probably be better. You can either lap or beagle the mold to get a larger as cast diameter...Ray

[jonk]

I found this somewhere awhile back......very useful. Bullet weight isn't what you are using but I've used these charges for any bullet from 150 to 225 gr with no issue:

Rifle Bullet

(model, barrel length, caliber) (weight, type, size)



MODEL 1896 30" .30-40 KRAG 214 Lyman No. 311284 .310"

MODEL 1903 24" .30-06 190 Lyman No. 311299 .310"

PATTERN 1914 26" .303 BRIT. 195 Lyman No. 314299 .313"

MAUSER K98K 24" 8MM 190 SAECO No. 081 .323"



Charge

Rifle Powder (grains Velocity

(mode, barrel length, caliber) (type) weight) (fps)



MODEL 1896 30" .30-40 KRAG 5744 22.0 1,764

MODEL 1903 24" .30-06 5744 24.0 1,820

PATTERN 1914 26" .303 BRIT. 5744 20.0 1,629

MAUSER K98K 24" 8MM 5744 27.0 1,869



Surprisingly the 30-40, .303, 7.65 Argie and 7.7 jap all have close to the same practical case volume, for reduced cast loads that is. You will find a good load if you start at 21 gr 5744 and work up in 1/2 gr increments to 24 gr in your 30-40 and .303. Actual best load for your rifles will depend on alloy and sizing. I general find happiness pretty close to 23 gr in my Ross MK10 .303 and that's a favorite load a friend with a #3 Ruger 30-40 uses.....he won't sell it to me-some friend, eh!

25 gr 5744 in two of my M1903 '06s run right at 1825 fps with the Lee C312-185 and shoot 2 moa all day long if I do my part.



Try 29 gr and you will be just fine for both accuracy and stregth of the rifle

.45-70 Government Springfield Trap Door <18000 psi

Barrel: 24", Twist: 1-20" Primer: WIN WLR Bullet Dia.: .458"

5744 405 LC FP(L) 24.3 1,226 27.0 1,394 16,100 2.550

5744 420 CP LFNGC(L) 25.6 1,210 28.5 1,375 16,100 2.600

5744 460 CP LFNGC(L) 24.3 1,102 27.0 1,253 18,800 2.680

5744 500 MCB RN(L) 23.4 1,070 26.0 1,217 16,100 2.635

5744 525 MCB SS(L) 21.6 1,060 24.0 1,205 16,300 2.655

5744 530 LYM Postell(L) 20.1 1,036 22.4 1,178 18,600 2.950

[excavman]

The Lyman 48th ed. shows 18 gr 5744 @ 1513 fps for a starting load with a 160 gr cast boolit. It also shows 27 gr as maximum for that bullet in the Krag. I have several loads ready to test with that powder in my Krag. I'm waiting for some good shooting weather to try them out.

Larry

[Tedly]

FWIW I called Accurate Arms and they actually answered the phone and connected me to the ballistics lab. I asked the ballistitian where to start/stop a AA5744 charge with a 150 gr. CG boolit sized +.oo1 over bore size in an1898 Krag turn bolt, NOT a Ruger No. 3... he told me to start not less than 22grs. and up as high as 31grs. , though 27 grs. would be where leading may occur. I loaded up some @ 22,23,24 grs. and they shot very poorly. The boolit was a Lyman #323397 153 gr. and its probably a really poor choice...small driving band, etc. Going to get back after it with a boolit that has more bearing surface. Just shot these cause they were free and laying around... May try them in my Ruger No. 3 ...don't really want to pull down a dozen rnds... Interesting variation in data between the sources....Tedly

[Larry Gibson]

Tedly

You may find 5744 to be a poor performer with 150 gr cast bullets. The reason is one of consistent ignition. By the time you get enough pressure up with that light of a bullet for the 5744 to ignite and burn efficiently velocity will be too high for any accuracy. Poor ignition is probably why your starting loads are shooting poorly. I suggest if you must use 5744 that you start at 22 gr again and use a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler.

If you don't want to use a filler then a switch to another powder such as 2400, 4227, 4198 or 4759 is adviseable. Also .001 over for the sizing is ok but if you can size or leave as cast at .312 it would probably be better.

Larry Gibson

[excess650]

I loaded up and shot some 160gr gc with 5744 in a 30-30 last week. The capacity is a little smaller, but I started at 15gr and worked up to 19gr or so. They all shot pretty well from a 24" barrel with iron sights. I intend to follow up with heavier charges.

My 8x57 seems to like 18gr 5744 under 190gr and 225gr, which are the only bullets tried so far. The 8x57 may have slightly more capacity, but I'm shoting heavier bullets.

In the 7.5x55, my best load is 22gr 5744 with a 175gr bullet. This case has capacity similar to the 30-06.

The point I'm trying to make is that despite the variations in case capacity and bullet weight, 5744 works for me.

Despite what the AA guy said, I wouldn't be afraid to start even lower, like 18gr or so. You may well find that the Krag will prefer a heavier bullet.

[Tedly]

I agree about the heavier bullet. Also found in my 8x57 that 185gr. Lyman #323481 as cast shot great w/ 20.0 gr.AA5744 and 243 gr. #323378 shot good with 18.0gr. If i shoot anymore 153 gr. #311397 in the Krag , it'll be unsized and with a lighter charge, probably at 18,0 gr. I'm not comfortable w/fillers yet,probably change other stuff around. Thanks for the input.

[shotman]

I have to go with larry here. 5477 is a poor choice for a light boolet
If you are paper shooting jump up to a 18o+or 200gr with the 5477

[Bullshop]

This is not what your asking for but thought I will add to your info pile anyway.
I picked up a kraig sporter a couple weeks ago and it is shooting really good with an NEI 165rngc at .314" at BHN 15. The mold was designed as a heavy for the 7.62x39.
I am seating them in unsized fire formed cases over 18gn Alliant Steel.
It has a Lyman receiver sight mounted and a small bead front and with this set up is holding 3 moa at 100 yards with most shots clustering under.
The 18gn load is mild and has plenty of room to go up in pressure.
I have been getting very good results with the Alliant Steel in this type application. It is in the burn rate of 2400 but being a flake powder is much bulkier so fills the case better.
BIC/BS

[excavman]

I sure hate to be a disagreeable sort but my test loads that I shot today don't leave me much choice.

Rifle - 1898 Krag Carbine iron sights
All boolits sized .309
ww plus 10% bar solder
Lyman 50-50 alox lube

Load 1
311466gc @ 153gr 5744 @ 16 gr no crimp
vel -- 1412 -- 1433 -- 1452 no primer backout, no burned neck
group 1" at 50yrds best group of the day

Load 2
Lee 90336gc @ 178gr 5744 @ 16 gr no crimp
vel -- 1394 -- 1376 -- 1367 no primer backout, no burned neck
group 1" at 50yrds

Load 3
311407gc @ 185gr 5744@ 16gr no crimp
vel -- 1404 -- 1417 -- 1404 no primer backout, no burned neck
group 1.5" @ 50yds

From these results I think I can safely go down another grain or more without any low pressure or erratic burn indicators. I plan to use this same load with the 311284 tomorrow and see what happens.

Also in todays tests were Trail Boss, Unique and 2400. 5744 out grouped them.

Larry

[Maven]

"I suggest if you must use 5744 that you start at 22 gr again and use a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler." ---Larry Gibson

All, I hate to disagree with Larry, but 5744 was designed for reduced loads and is insensitive to powder position. 20 grs. - 22 grs. with NO filler is where I'd start. In fact, 22 grs. with Ly. 311466 up to various 195 gr. CB's is what I use in my K-31's, 7.62 x 54R's, and my Arg. Mau.: Very accurate and clean burning; no primer protrusion either.

[Larry Gibson]

Maven

That's what the adds say but many of us have found that with some loads it's not the case, especially with lighter weight bullets in cases with a larger capacity than the 30-30. In many such cases the dacron filler is a definate help to consistent ignition and accuracy. Not a hard and fast rule but worth a try if Tedly wants to use 5744 with that light of a bullet in his 30-40. However he is uncomfortable with fillers and is looking at a heavier bullet which should work much better with 5744.

Larry Gibson

[Maven]

Larry, Actually, I don't have many nominally .30cal. molds which drop boolits lighter than 160 grs. However, I do have the 114 gr. Lee "soupcan" mold, but I wouldn't think of using 5744 under it, for the reasons you mentioned earlier. I will confess though to using a thin, 7/16" paper disk over 27 grs. 5744 in my .45-70 just to insure perfect ignition and efficient combustion. That small charge looks mighty lonely in such a large case! With the paper disk (cut from subscription cards in magazines) there's never been a problem and accuracy has been excellent.

[RU shooter]

My experience using 5744 has be pretty good using lower charges with light bullets in the 30-06 ,One of my previous 200 yd match loads was 18.0 with the Lee 155 bullet.I went back through my log book for those matches and did quite well at slow prone averaging 188 with decent X count these matches went from Oct- May in 09 so it shot well in 15-65 degrees. Yes there was some unburned/half burned kernels in the barrel but the accuracy was there?


Tim

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, Actually, I don't have many nominally .30cal. molds which drop boolits lighter than 160 grs. However, I do have the 114 gr. Lee "soupcan" mold, but I wouldn't think of using 5744 under it, for the reasons you mentioned earlier. I will confess though to using a thin, 7/16" paper disk over 27 grs. 5744 in my .45-70 just to insure perfect ignition and efficient combustion. That small charge looks mighty lonely in such a large case! With the paper disk (cut from subscription cards in magazines) there's never been a problem and accuracy has been excellent.

Maven

Though I generally don't recommend fillers with 4198, 4227,4759 and 5744 I have found many times with the lighter weight bullets they are benificial. This particularly the case where a bullet is light weight and of perhaps marginal fit. Such is the case with Tedley's 30-40 and several older worn .30s that I've used. for example I've a M1903 with a very good barrel (was new when I installed it) and it does well with the RCBS 30-150-FN (drops at .309) using all the mentioned powders without a filler. In my 2 other M1903s and a well shot hunting rifle of '06 persuasion it only shoots well if a filler is used. That bullet also shoots very well in my M70 Target .308W rifle without filler with those powders but in my worn M788 or my well used M1A a filler is required. That's why I mentioned to tedley to use a filler if he must use 5744 with the lighter cast bullet in his 30-40. It may indeed be of benifit there. Just shows there's more than one way to skin some cats.

Larry Gibson