I'm a lead miner!

[Gunlaker]

I just got back from the range today. I've got some serious lead mining to do. :-)

I'm not sure whether there was a previous bit of lead in the barrel that caused a torn patch, or whether the patch tore for other reasons. But after 4 shots it became evident that there was a problem. I can actually see the lead with the naked eye :-).

I'm going to spend time to ensure that this thing is 100% completely clean of all traces of lead. Then I'm going to go over my patching technique again.

I can see that even with the Norma brass there might be too much room, allowing the bullet to bump up in the chamber. The fired brass has an inside diameter of nearly 0.457" so that might be the problem.

I do have hopes, as my first shot last week hit the bull dead centre right where it should have. It was just the rest of 'em that were trouble.

On the positive side, I played with some bullets from my new BACO mould (for my 1885 in .45-70) and it looked promising....

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Trying to figure out what's going wrong is going to cause me some sleep loss I can tell you :-P

I just drove another of the bullets patched to .452" through the bore. (as suggested by Montana Charlie in the other thread).

I can see one thing that I'm probably doing wrong. The marks from the lands start something like an eighth of an inch after the start of the patch. I imagine the patches will have to be shortened by that amount to ensure that they are cut by the rifling.

But there certainly are no wrinkles or tears in the test bullet I drove down the bore.

Chris.

[Hickory]

There is a good chance that the "lead suckers" have been in your area.
Lead suckers are creatures the have an addiction to lead, and rely on
it for their own pleasure and well being.
These poor creatures suck up the lead left by shooters, they have no other source
to supply their addiction. They do not know about tire stores, junk yards or recycling places.
Have mercy on them if you catch them at your back stop sucking out the lead, and don't shoot them. It might be someone you know.[smilie=s:
You might be one of them!


I think you may one of the above, and not really a lead miner, but don't worry I never heard of anyone shooting a lead sucker.:kidding:

[montana_charlie]

I can see that even with the Norma brass there might be too much room, allowing the bullet to bump up in the chamber.
In your 'results' thread, you mentioned an intent to try some 'dry' patches.
Were you shooting those when the leading occurred?

Does the rifling in your barrel twist right, or left?
CM

[powderburnerr]

gunlaker .
I reread the posts and did not see where you stated your alloy .
whenever leading isues show upI like to go softer in the alloy. your load is almost exactly like mine and the ctg works with about any bulletI seat in it, if you are not cuting the patch , that is another indicator of too hard alloy shortening the patch will get you more lead . dean

[Gunlaker]

In your 'results' thread, you mentioned an intent to try some 'dry' patches.
Were you shooting those when the leading occurred?

Does the rifling in your barrel twist right, or left?
CM

Sorry, I should have included that detail.

The first three shots were wet patched and the last was dry patched. I did 2 wet and one dry patch for each shot. (I was getting a lot of fouling so I used 2 wets).

I noticed a "bump" as I pushed the patch through the barrel after wiping the last (the dry patched ) shot. This bump turned out to be a section of rifling that very visible leading, maybe 4 inches from the breach.

I've been thinking that there are two big possibilities:

1) perhaps my entire results need to be thrown out, and there was some minor leading left in the barrel from shooting grease groove bullets. The barrel has only about 80 shots through it now from new. Other than these paper patched experiments, the loads were with hard alloy. My thinking there was it might be better for breaking in the barrel. No leading was ever evident with those previous loads though. Even after pushing very tight dry patches through the bore.

2) Perhaps I am getting paper rings. If these remained at the end of the chamber after wiping (not sure if that's likely or possible), then perhaps thew remaining loads pushed them down the barrel and "ran them over" causing torn patches?

Regardless, I'm going to spend a few hours on the bore to ensure it's completely clean, and then start fresh.

With respect to twist direction, I'm not certain, but it's a Badger barrel. I"ve been patching with the bullet nose to the left as I roll my bullets away from me. I've been using a "patching board" as described in Paul Matthews book "The Paper Jacket".

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

gunlaker .
I reread the posts and did not see where you stated your alloy .
whenever leading isues show upI like to go softer in the alloy. your load is almost exactly like mine and the ctg works with about any bulletI seat in it, if you are not cuting the patch , that is another indicator of too hard alloy shortening the patch will get you more lead . dean

Hi,

It's a 20:1 lead tin alloy, or as close as I can get. The lead is something like 99.99% pure, and the tin is from pure ingots. Quantities weighed on a postage scale before smelting.

Do you think that might be a bit on the hard side?

I hope to get up to the cabin again before long. We have a range there where I can shoot with no one else around. At least that way I can find the patch if it's actually leaving the bullet...

Chris.

[montana_charlie]

In your 'results' thread, you mentioned an intent to try some 'dry' patches.
Were you shooting those when the leading occurred?

Does the rifling in your barrel twist right, or left?

Sorry, I should have included that detail.

The first three shots were wet patched and the last was dry patched. I did 2 wet and one dry patch for each shot. (I was getting a lot of fouling so I used 2 wets).
Uhh...wrong detail...I think...I'm not sure...but...

I'm referring to the paper patch wrapped on the bullet. Were yours wrapped on dry...or wet?
CM


Other than these paper patched experiments, the loads were with hard alloy. My thinking there was it might be better for breaking in the barrel. No leading was ever evident with those previous loads though. Even after pushing very tight dry patches through the bore.
Were they so tight you had to drive them through with a mallet?

Perhaps I am getting paper rings. If these remained at the end of the chamber after wiping (not sure if that's likely or possible), then perhaps thew remaining loads pushed them down the barrel and "ran them over" causing torn patches?
Wiping betwen shots would remove 'rings'.

With respect to twist direction, I'm not certain, but it's a Badger barrel. I"ve been patching with the bullet nose to the left as I roll my bullets away from me. I've been using a "patching board" as described in Paul Matthews book "The Paper Jacket".
I asked about twist direction in case you were using dry-wrapped paper patches. I think they may be more 'sensitive' to being wrapped the right direction for the twist.

When you push your cleaning patch through the bore from the breech, the entire rod should rotate to the right, or to the left.
If it turns to the right, you are currently wrapping your bullets in the same direction I would.

If you have a left twist, I would reverse the wrap on the bullets.
..............................................

About your wiping between shots routine.

You seemed to say that you wipe with wet patches after some shots, and wipe with dry patches after others.

The 'normal' routine it to fire the shot, push two wet patches through (one at a time), then push a dry patch through.
If conditions are excessively hot/dry, three wet patches might be used before the dry one.

Personally, I get better results when not shooting through a totally dry bore. So, I run my wet patches like everybody does, but I only dry the chamber...not the entire bore.
And, I run one wet patch before the first shot.

By the way, these patches are not dripping wet.
They have been squeezed (as a stack) between two boards so that you have to work pretty hard to wring a few lonely drops out with your fingers.
...............................................

For cleaning the lead out, many are using patch/jag combinations which fit 'snug' in the chamber...so they fit very tightly in the bore.
I said "very tight".

You can push the patch into the tapered leade by hand, but the rod has to be pounded through the bore.
Some place a 2 x 6 on the ground and ram the rod down against it.
Some use a mallet to drive the rod through with the rifle resting in a cradle.

The liquid used on the patch has usually been Kroil, or pure gum turpentine. I used Kroil with success, but I have switched to the turpentine due to a recent theory that Kroil actually encourages leading.

But, the latest craze in lead-removing-patch-wetter is GM Top Engine Cleaner. You probably need to ask at the parts desk at the GM dealership.
The discussion which introduced the concept... http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15435

CM

[405]

Gunlaker,
A few things- none certain.
It sounds like the length of your patch is fine. It should extend onto the nose ogive a little. Any problem with the 20:1 alloy- dunno? I shoot near pure lead with PP and either 20:1 or 30:1 grease grooves in the Sharps. You could try maybe 30 or 40:1. But try to keep the experimentation to the basics where only one variable is changed for each trial.

Now, the clean barrel part. If there is a lead build up that you can see and feel when swabbing--- then that surely is a problem. Make sure to get ALL the lead out. Use a tight bronze wool or Chore Boy type jagged patch. Successful lead removal may require mostly "mechanical" elbow grease along with some Kroil. After each range session completely clean and check the bore with a jagged tight cotton or flannel patch so you can feel for any build up. A clean bore is a happy, accurate bore :)

[powderburnerr]

are you using a lube cookie ? or just wads alone , It is hard to say on the alloy if the bullet slumped its is too soft if it gas cut it is too hard ,knowing which is the mystery. I know there is a more generous leade area in the c sharps which may be causing a base problem .
one thing to try would be to add a grease wad between two card wads ,if you havent already,this would contain the fire for a little longer maybe allowing the bullet into the bore further......finding a bullet would be best , you could then examine the base for clues . as to finding patch remnants, the first one is hardest to find , the rest are easy...take an old sheet with you when you shoot . if it is not windy you may find some on it.

and when wiping the bore do not rush the patch down it. go slow.

[montana_charlie]

16-1 is the recommended alloy for the Money nose, but I shoot that bullet in 20-1. The nose bumps up a little, so I patch slightly forward on the ogive.

Because I have examined fired bullets, I am able to know how much of the ogive needs to be covered.
For you (who can't look at bullets) I recommend you patch a bit further forward than you think you need to. When you look at patch particles, they may be held together at the leading edge by a short distance which did not get cut.
Then you know how much 'too far' on the ogive you are patching.

You don't need to change the size of your patches for this adjustment. Just leave a bit less paper folded over the base to move the leading edge forward.

CM

[Gunlaker]

MC, I'll try to improve my clarification :grin: Too many ways to use the word patch I think :grin:

I was wiping the bore between shots, with a mix of Ballistol + tap water. Two wets and one dry.

The first three shots were with bullets with patches that were applied wet, and the last shot was with a bullet who's patch was applied dry. After that dry patched bullet is when I noticed the heavy lead in the bore.

I'll check the direction of twist tonight.

I just saw an interesting thing on the Shiloh site. After driving one of my .452" bullets through the bore, it looks pretty much exactly like the one Mr Mulhern posted here:

http://img532.imageshack.us/i/engravedpp.jpg/

With the exception being that I have engraving marks on the paper all the way back to the base. The engraving on the leading edge of the patch looks exactly like Mr. Mulhern's bullet.

With respect to "getting the lead out". I've been using Butches Bore shine on tight patches on a brass jag that were "persuaded" down the bore with a mallet to the rod handle. I've been using one of those delrin rods. I got a fair bit out last night, but will pick up some turpentine and give it one more go tonight just to be sure it's clean.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

are you using a lube cookie ? or just wads alone , It is hard to say on the alloy if the bullet slumped its is too soft if it gas cut it is too hard ,knowing which is the mystery. I know there is a more generous leade area in the c sharps which may be causing a base problem .
one thing to try would be to add a grease wad between two card wads ,if you havent already,this would contain the fire for a little longer maybe allowing the bullet into the bore further......finding a bullet would be best , you could then examine the base for clues . as to finding patch remnants, the first one is hardest to find , the rest are easy...take an old sheet with you when you shoot . if it is not windy you may find some on it.

and when wiping the bore do not rush the patch down it. go slow.

There is no lube cookie yet :p. That's certainly on my list of things to try. I know what you mean regarding the generous leade. Just looking down the bore of my a C. Sharps in .45-70 you can see the difference when comparing to my Shiloh in the same caliber. That's assuming I'm using the word leade correctly :p.

I don't have my notes with me but IIRC there is either 0.2" or 0.25" of the bullet seated into the case.

Chris.

[powderburnerr]

you are as far as I am conserned, ,the difference in chambers is what I was trying to convey

if the base of the bullet bumps up in the leade before it is all the way in the barrel it will tear the patch.you can see this with a recovered bullet even if it is damaged pretty badly on the nose,
if you can slow down the bump up it will have time to get into the barrel .

in the shiloh chamber you only have to overcome the 45 degree cut from chamber to barrel,
the c.Sharps will pass the bullet unsupported for a longer period of time than the shiloh , so control of expantion needs to be addressed a little more in the c,sharps .you might try compressing enough more to get the lube cookie in or use a felt wad or a stack of whatever to gain a little more time ..... dean

[Don McDowell]

A lubed felt wad may just very likely ease alot of your problems.

[StarMetal]

A LOT OF LEAD

I want to cast
I want to shoot
I’ve been a miner
For a lot of lead
It’s these expressions
I never give
To keep me searching
For a lot of lead
And I’m tired in bed
Keeps me searching
For a lot of lead
I’m tired in bed

I’ve been to tire dealers
I’ve been to garage sells
I’ve crossed the salvage yard
For a lot of lead
I’ve been in my mind
It’s such a fine line
That keeps me searching
For a lot of lead
And I’m tired in bed
Keeps me searching
For a lot of lead
And I’m tired in bed.






Keep me searching
For a lot of lead
You keep me searching
For a lot of lead
And I’m tired in bed
I’ve been a miner
For a lot of lead



[smilie=w::cbpour:[smilie=s::drinks::Fire:

[Gunlaker]

A lubed felt wad may just very likely ease alot of your problems.

Don, I'll give that a try next. And as powderburner mentioned, the chamber might be giving me too much grief. Although it seems that RMulhern does more than all right with a factory CSA chamber (but I believe he has custom brass).

I might some thick walled brass with these PP bullets in my .45-70 Shiloh just to see if the chamber difference in that rifle makes them work better.

EDIT: MC, I checked the twist dircection last night. It appears that it's right handed, assuming twist direction follows the "right hand rule" of mathematics, engineering, etc. The cleaning rod rotates clockwise as seen from the back of the handle.

Chris.

[powderburnerr]

I did not mean the chamber is wrong ,you just have to approach it differently because it is bigger,,,
the thick walled brass was designed to fill the gap in a shiloh chamber it fills up the area of the 45 degree slope to the barrel ,it may not solve the bigger leade area of te C. sharps

[Don McDowell]

Well I don't know about your chamber, but the chamber on my CSA 75 in 45-70 is pretty tight. There's really no freebore at all.
Wrapping the bullets to .450 or under, sandwiching a felt wad between two fiber wads and seating the bullet so there's only about an 1/8 of an inch in the case seems to work alright.
I'm theorizing that the felt wad sandwiched between the 2 fiber wads cushion the base of the patched bullet, and the shallow seating depth means that the base doesn't have alot of room to bump up as the base is likely into the lead by the time it fully obturates.
Also,, if you're crimping those you can tear the patch before the powder ever goes off. A quick way to check that is take a loaded round, and if you can pull the bullet by hand and the patch looks good you may be alright. If tho you use a mallet puller and the patch comes apart you've got to much case mouth/neck tension tearing the patch and that'll sure let you mine lead. Chamfering the case mouths smooth as a babies bottom will help cure a lot of "bad" patch blues.

[montana_charlie]

EDIT: MC, I checked the twist dircection last night. It appears that it's right handed, assuming twist direction follows the "right hand rule" of mathematics, engineering, etc. The cleaning rod rotates clockwise as seen from the back of the handle.
Then your bullets are wrapped in the direction (relative to rifling twist) which works best for me...following the 'two-handed rule of finding one's butt with both hands while blindfolded'.

I'm surprised to hear that you use a mallet to pound a tight patch through the bore...with a delrin rod.

CM

[Gunlaker]

Then your bullets are wrapped in the direction (relative to rifling twist) which works best for me...following the 'two-handed rule of finding one's butt with both hands while blindfolded'.

I'm surprised to hear that you use a mallet to pound a tight patch through the bore...with a delrin rod.

CM

Well, the rod was probably complaining. I did use a guide, but it probably wasn't the best rod to use for such antics :-).

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

Well I don't know about your chamber, but the chamber on my CSA 75 in 45-70 is pretty tight. There's really no freebore at all.
Wrapping the bullets to .450 or under, sandwiching a felt wad between two fiber wads and seating the bullet so there's only about an 1/8 of an inch in the case seems to work alright.
I'm theorizing that the felt wad sandwiched between the 2 fiber wads cushion the base of the patched bullet, and the shallow seating depth means that the base doesn't have alot of room to bump up as the base is likely into the lead by the time it fully obturates.
Also,, if you're crimping those you can tear the patch before the powder ever goes off. A quick way to check that is take a loaded round, and if you can pull the bullet by hand and the patch looks good you may be alright. If tho you use a mallet puller and the patch comes apart you've got to much case mouth/neck tension tearing the patch and that'll sure let you mine lead. Chamfering the case mouths smooth as a babies bottom will help cure a lot of "bad" patch blues.

Interesting.... How old is your CSA? I wonder if they are making them different. By looking down the bore I can see the transition to the rifling in my .45-70 and it looks quite a bit longer than any of my Shiloh. For my new BACO .459" Creedmoor gg mould, I can seat to about 3.08" before the front driving band touches the lands. That gives me the top lube groove fully exposed, and the second one just showing.

On my PP loads, the bullets are a snug fit. I can remove them without any damage (I've been seating the bullets by hand). They are snug enough that holding the loaded cartridge upside-down will not cause the bullet to fall out.

I chamfered the cases with the RCBS chamfering tool. I've gone over a few of them to make sure that there is no ridge left from trimming.

I bought some felt on my way home from work last night. I'll give that a go, and maybe seat the bullet a bit further out. Maybe 1/8" or 1/10" ? Would you suggest lubing those up and covering with a 0.030" veg king wad?

thanks,

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

I did not mean the chamber is wrong ,you just have to approach it differently because it is bigger,,,
the thick walled brass was designed to fill the gap in a shiloh chamber it fills up the area of the 45 degree slope to the barrel ,it may not solve the bigger leade area of te C. sharps

Ah. I see.

thanks,

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

My CSA was brand spankin new in December of 07
On those felt wads, yes I'ld soak em with a lube of somekind, if nothing else, try some snowseal.
Yes put a fiber wad on either side of the felt.