FMJ's from .22LR cases?

[*MALICE*]

Hey, everyone. I'm new to swaging and new to the forum and have a few questions that I couldn't seem to find any answers for. It's probably stuff that everyone already knows the answers to so sorry in advance if it sounds dumb.

I'm a CNC machinist and I've already made a de-rimming die/punch set and it seems to work pretty good so far (banged out 1000 cases so far). I've also made a lead wire extruding die (haven't tested it yet) based on what some other people on here have done. Next on the list is the core sizing die. After looking at some of the work people have done on core-seating and point-forming dies....I may just buy the last two to avoid the aggravation and time involved in making them.

To the main point: I've seen some pictures of some boolits made from .22lr cases and while most of them seem to have lead points, I've seen a few that appear to be closed base FMJ's (head stamps on the base but the point looks fully closed).
Am I correct in assuming one would use the same point forming die one would use for lead tips except the jacket just forms in on itself to close the tip? Or is there something else I'm missing.

How heavy of a FMJ is possible to make with .22lr cases? It seems that 55gr flat base is no problem, but what about 62's? Also, what about boat tails? How heavy a FMJ could you make with a boat tail?

Any info would be greatly appreciated :) and thanks in advance

[ANeat]

Ive made some right at 60 grains with no exposed lead. Thats with a 6s ogive. Havent tried a boat-tailed.

For a lead point there is a seperate point forming die. There is an ejector pin in the main forming die that would prevent a pointy bullet from being formed

[Smokin7mm]

The bullets you are refering to are simply called an open tip design. Some also refer to them as a hollow point. I also get right at about a 60gr bullet without exposed lead. To some extent it depends on the 22rf case you are using. I have made some 60gr that have a slight lead tip and others that dont. It also depends on how much you try and close the tip. ANeat is correct that in a normal point up die the ejector pin prevents a complete closing of the tip. It is all determined on the size of the ejection pin.
Bret.

[DukeInFlorida]

Technically, any bullet shape can be developed. It;s a matter of the die set to form the bullet shape in sequential operations.


Hey, everyone. I'm new to swaging and new to the forum and have a few questions that I couldn't seem to find any answers for. It's probably stuff that everyone already knows the answers to so sorry in advance if it sounds dumb.

I'm a CNC machinist and I've already made a de-rimming die/punch set and it seems to work pretty good so far (banged out 1000 cases so far). I've also made a lead wire extruding die (haven't tested it yet) based on what some other people on here have done. Next on the list is the core sizing die. After looking at some of the work people have done on core-seating and point-forming dies....I may just buy the last two to avoid the aggravation and time involved in making them.

To the main point: I've seen some pictures of some boolits made from .22lr cases and while most of them seem to have lead points, I've seen a few that appear to be closed base FMJ's (head stamps on the base but the point looks fully closed).
Am I correct in assuming one would use the same point forming die one would use for lead tips except the jacket just forms in on itself to close the tip? Or is there something else I'm missing.

How heavy of a FMJ is possible to make with .22lr cases? It seems that 55gr flat base is no problem, but what about 62's? Also, what about boat tails? How heavy a FMJ could you make with a boat tail?

Any info would be greatly appreciated :) and thanks in advance

[*MALICE*]

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/Bullets/Gunstock015.jpg

This is a perfect example of what I'm wanting/hoping to achieve. Even though they are 'open tips', they appear to be completely closed (seemless?) and don't look like your typical 'open tip' bullet. They also seem somewhat 'blunt' and I'm assuming this is due to a larger diameter ejector pin....is that correct?

Does making boat tails require a longer or shorter jacket than making flat bases?

[ANeat]

You just leave a little lead exposed and tumble them, they turn out like that.

You can make them as blunt as you want

Leave the nose a little flat and a 62 grainer is pretty easy.

[*MALICE*]

You just leave a little lead exposed and tumble them, they turn out like that

So these are actually lead tips then? I guess it must be a trick of the light (and tumbling) that makes them look like they're completely closed.


You can make them as blunt as you want

So making them blunt is not dependent on the punch size but rather how high you raise the ram (so as to not squirt lead out the end)?

[ANeat]

Its a balance between the ammount of lead seated into the jacket and the ammount the tip is closed.

Fill the jacket completely with lead and as soon as you start closing the tip you will have lead coming out.

Here is a 62.9 grainer on the left, closed down till the lead was at the tip. Keep closing it down and the lead begins to come out of the jacket.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/aneat/Swage/DSC01239.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h165/aneat/Swage/DSC01240.jpg

[Hickory]

Dave Corbin says that you can make FMJ bullets with his dies.
I made some until I split the point forming die.
In my opinion it is cheaper to buy FMJ bullets from a commurial source.
It takes a lot more force and perssure to make FMJ bullets.

I keep these around ot remind me not to try it again.

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/hickory_01/Bullets/photobucket033.jpg

[*MALICE*]

I see. :)

So, realistically, if I want a 62 grain it's either going to have to be somewhat blunt or have a lead tip.

So is there any reason you can't make boat tails with .22 brass? And does making a boat tail require a longer jacket as opposed to a flat base?

[*MALICE*]

Hickory - So with making FMJ's from .22 cases, you would: form the point first, then seat the core, then close the base or do you seat the core, then form the point backwards and then close the base?.

Other than the higher pressures involved and the possibility of splitting your die with FMJ's, do you run into problems forming the points with .22 cases in regards to firing pin marks tearing/opening up, or no more than you do making open tips?

[ANeat]

Im sure you could make a boat-tail. It takes extra dies, I havent done it myself.

Im not sure what the weight would turn out as but I would guess it would end up a touch lighter since youre compressing the jacket down to some degree.

For the cost of jackets If I was going to the trouble and needed a boat-tailed bullet I would probably just buy the jackets.
More money yes but a lot less work and you get a much better quality bullet

[Hickory]

I see. :)

So is there any reason you can't make boat tails with .22 brass? And does making a boat tail require a longer jacket as opposed to a flat base?

In my opinion making boattail bullets from 22 RF cases is impractial.
The reason is that in order to get the optium benifet of the boattail you need to drive them at a velocity faster that the thin (.010) rimfire jacket can withstand, without coming apart.

Boattail bullets are at their best at long distance and high velocities. And high velocities are needed to get the long distances you are trying to achieve.

I tried them in my 22-250 and 220 swift and when the velocity goes over 3400 fps the bullets never reach the target, even at 100 yrds.

Even shooting them through some ruff factory barrels at 3200 fps the never get to the target.

[Eutectic]

Hickory has a good point. (no pun intended!)

I have made what I wanted as 'game' FMJ bullets and found a tightly pointed bullet out of the question. I've attached pictures of a 43gr FMJ "Hornet' bullet I've made. As you see it is still pretty fragile in wet paper tests even at 150yds impact!

You don't say why you want FMJ. If it's for functioning, then the lead flush with the jacket tip as recommended is the best option. If you want FMJ for little or no expansion.... well that won't happen with .22 casings...

Eutectic
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid3.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid4.jpg

[Hickory]

Hickory - So with making FMJ's from .22 cases, you would: form the point first, then seat the core, then close the base or do you seat the core, then form the point backwards and then close the base?.

Other than the higher pressures involved and the possibility of splitting your die with FMJ's, do you run into problems forming the points with .22 cases in regards to firing pin marks tearing/opening up, or no more than you do making open tips?

You will run into many problems tryig to make FMJ's using rimfire jackets, far more problems then you can solve and get it right. The jackets have too many flaws for what you are trying to get.

If you can get your hands on some J4 jackets you can start there.

[*MALICE*]

You don't say why you want FMJ.

More just curious with if it was possible and what the process was.

Thanks everyone for the answers. I really appreciate it.

[hcpookie]

Yeah some people have better luck, there are obvious caveats to doing them as you can't get them over about 3000 FPS or else they'll come apart midflight. Its kind of hard searching for "22" or something similar, but there are many people that do make them and have a reasonable amount of luck. Just try browsing through the pages in this Swaging forum and I'm sure you'll find the discussions - they are the ones with the most views :) Here's the one I have bookmarked:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=24952

Me, I like to tinker as it isn't about cost so much as "can it be done" and so the bottom line cost savings isn't as important as the quality and consistency. I'm about halfway done with my 22LR jacket conversion but Real Life keeps getting in the way of bullet making :)

[ETG]

Hickory has a good point. (no pun intended!)

I have made what I wanted as 'game' FMJ bullets and found a tightly pointed bullet out of the question. I've attached pictures of a 43gr FMJ "Hornet' bullet I've made. As you see it is still pretty fragile in wet paper tests even at 150yds impact!

You don't say why you want FMJ. If it's for functioning, then the lead flush with the jacket tip as recommended is the best option. If you want FMJ for little or no expansion.... well that won't happen with .22 casings...

Eutectic
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid3.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid4.jpg

LOL - That's exactly what mine look like when I accidentally put one in backwards in the point forming die. Never shot one but they do look kind of cool.

[MIBULLETS]

I have made the FMJ on 22 cases and made them more pointy, but there is a very fine line where it is too much for the thin brass to handle. When you hit that point, the lead will break through the jacket tip and ruin it. The hardest part for me was forming the base consistantly. you have to have just the right volume of lead or filler in the jacket.

The process I used was seat the core (with proper punch) in the point forming die, eject it, turn it around and push it in far enough to get the open base to begin to curve in, eject it again, put it back in the point forming die with the point forming punch to flatten the base. Corbin recommends using a full diameter dish shaped punch before the final flattening to help round the edges in a little more.

[strahd_zarovich]

Hickory has a good point. (no pun intended!)

I have made what I wanted as 'game' FMJ bullets and found a tightly pointed bullet out of the question. I've attached pictures of a 43gr FMJ "Hornet' bullet I've made. As you see it is still pretty fragile in wet paper tests even at 150yds impact!

You don't say why you want FMJ. If it's for functioning, then the lead flush with the jacket tip as recommended is the best option. If you want FMJ for little or no expansion.... well that won't happen with .22 casings...

Eutectic
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid3.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/43grbronzesolid4.jpg

OK What dies are you using? I currently shoot open base commercial 62's and would love to start makeing my own just like these.

SORRY TO JACK YOUR THREAD

[wingnut]

22336

22337

22338

Home made .223 swag 56 gr open point at starting load for AA2230 at 100 yd.
Smaller crater 1/2 cold rolled other hot rolled with lead and jacket on side of crater. This is the first non-paper targets we've used. I very happy swagging our own.

[Ammosmith]

Yup I split my point forming die too. What a pisser.

[michiganvet]

You need a 1 cal ojive point forming die. Seat cores first then turn around and put headstamp into point form die. Do gently and you will probably need to turn around several times forming GENTLY until you get the result you want. By forming gently, you won't completely expand the bullet to fit the point forming die until you have the shape right and the jacket folded over the base. I'm sure Hickory is right and you can get better results with J4 jackets which aren't as brittle. I believe I got the ones I have from Larry Blackmon in LA.

[algunjunkie]

I generally deat the core in the point form die, flip and reinsert to just round the base, flip again and flater the base. Using the fressure to detrmine the point,

like thesehttp://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa150/dcso11/swaged%20Bullets/homemadebullets.jpg

[Mountain Prepper]

maybe not exactly what you are wanting, but I have used brass BBs in the end of the bullet and then adjusted the lead inside and the weight and length until the point formed over the top of the BB and then used the point forming at the tip with a dish shaped punch to press the last bit of jacket over.

I did not like the edges of the jacket and later seated the BB deeper and formed a regular point, it works as a mechanical expander and has some penetration (used with .223 rem. and .22 LR jackets).