aluminum bullets

[vette78]

has anyone ever heard of a company in scranton pennsylvania call personal protection lt. They manufactured aluminum bullets for 38 special. I have about 500 of these, they are coated with a red hard lube of some kind and are supposed to be for personal protection. Thw literatur says to load them usinf 8 grains of HP38 or 231 the bullet weight is 38 grains. I am curious to know if anyone has ever run across thses before and if they have loded and fired them.

[JeffinNZ]

Are you sure they are not Zinc?

[RayinNH]

I would guess zinc a swell. National Bullet Co. made zinc bullets, I'm not sure they're still in business. Seems like aluminum would be awful light...Ray

[thenaaks]

has anyone ever heard of a company in scranton pennsylvania call personal protection lt. They manufactured aluminum bullets for 38 special. I have about 500 of these, they are coated with a red hard lube of some kind and are supposed to be for personal protection. Thw literatur says to load them usinf 8 grains of HP38 or 231 the bullet weight is 38 grains. I am curious to know if anyone has ever run across thses before and if they have loded and fired them.

38 grains would have to be aluminum...unless they are tiny!
wouldnt have to worry about over-penetration with such a light bullet

[lavenatti]

Doesn't sound like much protection, lightweight and slow moving. Might be better off using the gun as a club.

[vette78]

The bullets are definitely aluminum I bought five hundred of them in packages of twenty and have the spec sheet for them. They list it as a 38 grain aluminum alloy projectile, and say it is loaded below SAMMI maximum pressures but still dlivers a nominal velocity of 2000 fps froma 2 inch barrel and 2100 from a 4 inch barrel. I tis coated with a special red coating by Z-coat corporation to prevent barrel fouling. I am loading some this week and am going to do some tests on them at a friends range, I will report back and let you know how it turns out.

[thenaaks]

the coating also would keep the bullet from oxidizing...no one wants to shoot that thru their barrel.

i'd like to see some pics if it's not too much trouble...sound interesting to me. also would like to hear about penetration...might be time to round up some old phone books.

[bohica2xo]

Yup, they are aluminum. The idea is that they are high velocity, but do not travel far if you miss...

Aguila has loaded a similar round for several years. The aguila ammo is call the "IQ" line, and is loaded in 9mm, 40S&W, and 45acp. The bullets are zinc, and the 9mm weighs about 65 grains.

There was some internet BS about them going through soft armor, but the BATFE tech branch tested it and called BS

http://www.afte.org/TrainingSeminar/AFTE2006/Summaries/afte2006_tues.htm

You will have to scroll down to look for it, it is about halfway down.

The zinc at high velocities fouls badly, but for defense ammo it could be effective.

I have never seen the 38 grain aluminum stuff tested. This should be interesting.

B.

[shotman]

I bet they are hard to cast in a Lee 6 banger

[Multigunner]

During the army testing of .45 caliber handguns that resulted in adoption of the Colt 1911 one rather odd entry was a blowback operated .45 auto which used wooden core bullets with a thick metal jacket.
These also gave impressive velocities but very little striking power.

Solid copper alloy bullets are or have been available. The Blitz Action trauma is a good example.

[Molly]

Many years back, I went on a mission to discover the lightest load and bullet that would operate a little MAB .32 auto. No longer sure why, but it was interesting. I went down through the lightest lead alloy, and ended up turning bullets from aluminum barstock. Turned out that I couldn't go much lighter, as they wouldn't feed if they were too short. But I ended up with some truncated cones with a body / bore length of about 1/8 inch.

Recognizing the legal implications, I'm not going to tell you the final load except that it was a case FULL of Bullseye. The chronographed velocity from the pipsqueak round and the short barrel was well in excess of 2000 FPS, and I'm not kidding. It calculated to energies well over .38 +P loads, and there were NO pressure problems: No flattened primers, no bulged cases. Ejection was brisk and positive (BG). Accuracy was poor, as you might expect, but at self defense ranges, it was more than adequate.

Would probably be death incarnate to someone in a T-shirt: It might blow a grapefruit sized hole through him. But it MIGHT not penetrate a heavy leather coat. But the coat wearer would have a bruise that covered his entire chest. The impact alone would probably kill him without breaking his skin. And someone on the other side of a plaster wall would probably be pretty safe.

That looked like about as far as I could go with light bullets, so I dropped that approach, but the results were sure impressive at the time.

[jaguarxk120]

The aluminum is a soft alloy and the bullet driven at high velocity, when hitting resistance will not mushroom like lead. But will open and tear, when aluminum tears it has a very jagged edge that is very sharp, it will leave a large wound channel.

[82nd airborne]

The IQ line listed above didnt hit even close to zero at ten yards in my glock, so dont buy them asuming that they will hit where your aiming.

[Freightman]

Google National Bullet Co. here is what I got
http://www.luckygunner.com/

[bannor]

Aluminum works like a charm for really light, really high velocity bullets. And yes, it takes a LOT of Bullseye powder to even work the slide with such bullets. I tried several other pistol powders, and they didn't have enough "octane" to work the slide, with the case full of powder.

[jmorris]

When I first built my casting machine I casted different bullets in the same mold using different alloys. From a 230g mold pure lead would drop a 240g bullet and silver solder would drop a 214g bullet that was quite hard.

I think someone made aluminum bullets for the 458 socom but my interest in that round was always heavy and slow for suppressor use.

[bannor]

there's an outfit selling aluminum bullets right now, for 45-70. If you cast a 155 gr (nominal weight of mold intent) out of "non-lead" solder (95% pure tin, 5% antimony) it will drop out of the mold at 107 grs.

[Bulldogger]

I had (might still have somewhere) some of those Aguila aluminum HPs. They are dynamite fast, but as mentioned accuracy is poor. They are only good for short range, maybe 10 yards, and they fly VERY high compared to copper or lead projos. For house clearing maybe, but it's also worth noting that they seemed much louder too, so maybe it's a wash. Not that firing indoors any caliber or load is handy for being able to hear something seconds later.

In the end I prefer the usual loads, and a pistol large enough to use for ranges greater than 10 yards with reasonable expectations of accuracy.

Bulldogger

[Artful]

Well Bulldogger there are ways around the hearing problem...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2GchQ3orB0

[Artful]

Oh, and night time version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A63oYgod8Y

[Artful]

I seem to recall aluminum coated with nylon ammo used by Sky Marshall's in 357 revolvers in the late 70's early 80's
and they had another all plastic ammo as well - this was for fear of shooting thru parts of the aircraft and loosing control / crashing it.

And a jacketed - aluminum core 308/7.62x51 round for the military to reduce recoil - I think they even made a multiple projectile version of it for higher hit probability.

[bannor]

10 yds. for justifiable civilian defense, is EXTREME LONG RANGE. Did you know that? the great majority of the time, you never even have to fire, so the range is irrelevant. Most attackers don't have a gun, so you'd better NOT hit them at more than about 10 ft of range. Prison and your pants sued off will be the result if you do that! Most gun fights are inside 10 ft, 90% are inside 20 ft, and that's with lots of COP data skewing the stats toward longer ranges! Cops can get away with doing all sorts of things that you'd get 20 years in prison for doing.

if the public finds OUT that you used a silencer for a defensive shooting, you'll be VERY hard pressed to not go to prison for murder. So consider removing it and having a buddy come get all of your "cans" before the cops get there. of course, that is "altering a death scene", which is a crime in many states. Maybe the dude aint dead? :-)

[bannor]

actually, the Aquila .45 bullets are not fast at all, compared to what they SHOULD be. A lousy 1450 fps, when you've cut the bullet weight in HALF (ie, 115 grs)? That's nothing. 9mm gets them to 1300 fps, ferchrissakes! From a 5" .45, such a bullet should be moving at 1700 fps. Higher velocity and lighter bullets almost always shoot MUCH LOWER than normal ammo (not higher) I"ll worry much more about the 1 in 3 failure to stop from lack of expansion and low energy from 230 gr .45's, and a lot less about accuracy beyond 10 yds. most shots at men MISS the entire man, with handguns, at a mere 5 yds, and no, not all those cops are completely incompetent. that's just what the blasts, bad light, target movement, dazzled eyes, and the "pucker factor" do to you. You can forget about being the "steely eyed" marksman once the bullets start making you duck.

Just go check your times and scores on one el presidente drill (indoors) with and without ear protection sometime. :-) Keep a set of Norton "earvalve" plugs on your person at all times, and in your home, keep a set of electronic muffs and body armor near your flashlight and phone.

[Artful]

10 yds. for justifiable civilian defense, is EXTREME LONG RANGE. Did you know that?

REALLY - How Big is your house - what's the furthest distance you can see and shoot an intruder inside your dwelling?

the great majority of the time, you never even have to fire, so the range is irrelevant. Most attackers don't have a gun, so you'd better NOT hit them at more than about 10 ft of range. Prison and your pants sued off will be the result if you do that!

Oh, please can you post a link confirming this part of your reply...Thanks in Advance

Most gun fights are inside 10 ft, 90% are inside 20 ft, and that's with lots of COP data skewing the stats toward longer ranges!
Cops can get away with doing all sorts of things that you'd get 20 years in prison for doing.

if the public finds OUT that you used a silencer for a defensive shooting, you'll be VERY hard pressed to not go to prison for murder.
So consider removing it and having a buddy come get all of your "cans" before the cops get there. of course, that is "altering a death scene", which is a crime in many states. Maybe the dude aint dead? :-)

Really, Tell me more about having a buddy come get a restricted Items that's not registered to him.
As far as murder charges - if you have a justified shooting it won't matter the weapon you used.
Murder is murder not by the weapon but by the circumstances and actions.
Now tell us about not using handloaded ammuntion as it automatically makes you a murderer - ok...

[Artful]

Just go check your times and scores on one el presidente drill (indoors) with and without ear protection sometime. :-) Keep a set of Norton "earvalve" plugs on your person at all times, and in your home, keep a set of electronic muffs and body armor near your flashlight and phone.

I have already damaged my hearing enough not to try your drill without ear protection - thanks for that advise.
But at least I do agree that you should have a flashlight to ID any targets and your cell phone handy as well as your defensive firearm of choice.

Oh, and I thought the use of body armor automatically made you a murder suspect if you shot a home intruder - or didn't I get that right for the ninja website.
Unless of course you a criminal wearing body armor - that's OK right.

[Artful]

Sorry to be dragging your thread but some responses just get under my skin...

And interesting thread about NFA used for defense against criminals...
http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

[bannor]

full auto endangers the entire neighborhood. please expain how a silencer does anything of the kind? Ayoob has for decades said to keep body armor by your gun at home and get it on yourself if at all possible. You must have pulled that idea about it being bad from where you get most of your other ideas. Care to try again?

[jmorris]

full auto endangers the entire neighborhood. please expain how a silencer does anything of the kind? Ayoob has for decades said to keep body armor by your gun at home and get it on yourself if at all possible. You must have pulled that idea about it being bad from where you get most of your other ideas. Care to try again?

I shoot FA at my house all the time, suppressed just keeps the neibors happy.

I had a few drinks with Massad Ayoob in '06 at the nationals match hotel (he never does well at competitive events). Just a guy that has been in "the business" and writes story's.

Unless you live in a place like I do and have IR sensors that will detect motion of a coon, coyote, skunk or arimidillos more than a few hundred yards, unless you sleep in your body armor with the gun strapped in it, it won't do you much good anyway.

[Stephen Cohen]

Artful, It warms my heart, to know there are still places where one can defend ones life, and not face criminal prosecution.

[Artful]

full auto endangers the entire neighborhood.
please expain how a silencer does anything of the kind?
Ayoob has for decades said to keep body armor by your gun at home and get it on yourself if at all possible. You must have pulled that idea about it being bad from where you get most of your other ideas.
Care to try again?

Sure, happy too

- firing any gun endangers the entire neighborhood then doesn't it - aimed gunfire is what you want and trigger control allows one to shoot one or multiple shots on target - the weapon of choice doesn't endanger anyone by it's being single shot, repeater, or full auto - it's the shooter that must control the end result. With a full size UZI I can shoot single shots just fine - same with HK MP5 9mm, faster cyclic rate weapons like MAC 11's do tend to have more than one round fired off for many people but most can get of a double (two shots). And of course we have all seen SWAT teams armed with such weapons (many capable of full auto fire). And the UZI and MP5 both have single shot as a choice on the selector.

But compare that SMG to a shotgun loaded with 000 buck (similar projectile size) - at what distance does the shotgun patterns farthest spread exceed the distance apart of two shots from the MAC 11? Doesn't that weapon endanger a neighborhood more - but aren't those some of the most common weapons issued to police - who are to protect the neighborhood? - interesting choice by their departments policy makers - unless they only issue slugs.

Silencers - I never said that using a silencer endangers a neighborhood. I simply said the use of a sound suppressor helps when shooting inside a house - one of the reasons the military is issuing more of them is due to more CQB/urban fighting these days. Your response about use of silencer was as I recall ....


if the public finds OUT that you used a silencer for a defensive shooting, you'll be VERY hard pressed to not go to prison for murder. So consider removing it and having a buddy come get all of your "cans" before the cops get there. of course, that is "altering a death scene", which is a crime in many states. Maybe the dude aint dead? :smile:

Body Armor - Under federal law, a bulletproof vest is considered “body armor,” which is regulated by statute, 18 U.S.C.A. Section 931, limits use aka forbids anyone convicted of a violent felony to own or possess a vest.
A majority of the states regulate vests and other body armor, by prohibiting certain people from owning it also, and have enacted laws enhancing sentences when armor is used in the commission of a crime (or making the use itself a separate crime). For example, in California, judges may add one, two, or three years (Ca. Penal Code Section 12022.2). Or, a state may elevate the level of the felony if body armor is involved. In Kentucky, use of body armor makes the defendant ineligible for parole. In a few states, mere possession (which is much broader than wearing the item) during a crime is a criminal act, and states may even extend the ban in ownership to those convicted of a violent misdemeanors. Other states list the seperate crimes that determine whether an individual may possess the armor.


A few states prohibit the use or possession in specified situations or circumstances, without regard to the criminal background of the wearer. One state prohibits wearing armor on school property or school-sponsored functions which would make it a crime to have teacher's have it available (Louisiana), while in Connecticut, sale of body armor must be done in person—Internet and phone purchases are illegal.

Most of these laws came about due to the media portrayal of all body armor not in police hands as being for criminal intent due to the North Hollywood shootout. You remember that fiasco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrlUsaYlKPs

Yep, I get most of my idea's by reading - it's a dangerous thing - maybe we should have a law against it. :popcorn:

[Artful]

Artful, It warms my heart, to know there are still places where one can defend ones life, and not face criminal prosecution.

The world keeps a changing but not always for the better eh.... though the liberals who make up the laws will never admit that.

[Artful]

Unless you live in a place like I do and have IR sensors that will detect motion of a coon, coyote, skunk or arimidillos more than a few hundred yards, unless you sleep in your body armor with the gun strapped in it, it won't do you much good anyway.

I'd rather have the option than not have the opportunity to strap it on though.

[jmorris]

I am all for the option, just stating that with time constraints one might not have the opportunity to, unless they keep it on all the time.