Correct dies for 7.62 x 38r

[WRideout]

I recently acquired an 1895 Nagant Pistol that I enjoy very much. I have so far put one box of Hotshot ammo through it. I researched the Cast Boolit forum and the internet for information on reloading for this antique. In looking at the advice for reloading, I am getting a bit perplexed; I have found abundant advice on loading converted 32-20, and lots of posts on converting cylinders to chamber modern rounds. What I want to do is buy dies that will reliably handle the factory 7.62 x 38R brass that I have, without modification. As I understand it, the RCBS dies are horribly expensive, and the Lee dies are actually made for 32-20. If anyone can help, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Wrideout

[mooman76]

Your information is correct. I got a set of the Lee dies but they were converted and even are stamped 32-20. They also needed some tweeking, nothing major though. I believe someone here talked about loading them with a comman die like 20 carbine or something like that. Do some more searching an you will find it. I have yet to get mine to shoot good at all but I bought some 32 HB bullets that are suppose/hopefully change that. Some others have goten lucky and had one shoot good off the bat and some have done some work to get their's to shoot very good. You can buy a conversion cyl so it will shoot 32acp but I don't know how well it works.

[mtnman31]

Mine works like a champ with the Lee dies and reforming 32-20 brass. 32-20 brass is much easier than trying to find real Nagant brass that will last more than one or two loadings. I have not had to do anything special with my Lee dies. If you were looking to load actual Nagant brass with the Lee dies, I think you will just need to use a different plug to seat the bullets. Not certain... I'd forget the 32 ACP cylinder unless you already shoot it or reload for it. My friend got one at the same time I got mine and his 32 cylinder needed some fitting before it would work reliably. It shoots fine now but took some work to get up and running.

Anyway, get yourself the Lee dies and you will be happy. Besides, the Nagant is no match quality pistol to begin with. You likely won't be loading with the intent of knocking out the center ring from 50 yards. Just load it up and use for rabbits or shooting pop cans. Have fun.

[Mk42gunner]

I have no experience with this round at all, but you might try CH-4D; they seem to have reloading dies for a lot of old, outdated, obsolete, and oddball cartridges. Usually cheaper than RCBS too.


Robert

[Artful]

I have yet to reload my hotshott cases as I still have some of ammo left but here's some links I marked
http://www.realguns.com/archives/130.htm
http://www.makarov.com/nagant/m1895.htm
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/33908
http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com/topic/2729
http://www.pulemetov.net/weaponry/nagant_cart.html
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=1327

http://yarchive.net/gun/revolver/nagant_revolver.html


#I just read the blurb in the MidwayUSA catalog and the Blue Press about
#using Starline 32-20 brass to make cheap reloads for this pistol.
#Considering the cheap price of Nagant revolvers, I am intrigued.
#
#Does anyone have any experience with the Lee die set? Blue Press used a 30 Carbine die set to form the brass initially and a 32 S&W to size it
#afterwards. Does anyone know if I need any of that if I just get hte Lee
#die set from Midway?

While the above approach will make brass that is shootable, many will
find that it is not at all satisfactory. Because of the design of the
this particular revolver, the "throat" that the bullet enters as it
leaves the case (actually the remainder of the cylinder) is grossly
oversize for the bullet. One of the most critical aspects of making lead
(or any other) bullets shoot accurately is fitting the bullet to the
throat.

If mine is a typical example, despite the worst ever 100 pound trigger,
these are very accurate little revolvers. It seems a shame not to get
the gun's full accuracy potential.

Because of all the interest in this project, this my attempt to document
efforts to reform .223 brass to 7.62 Nagant Russian Revolver. Once I had
learned the idiosyncrasies of the beast, it was pretty straightforward, albeit somewhat time consuming.

Suggested tools and materials:

.223 brass and corresponding shell holder
.30 Carbine reloading dies - mine is an RCBS
reloading press ("O" type, heavy duty type not required; I have also done this
on my Lyman Spar-T)
disk sander (not necessary but it does help to speed things along)
case lube (suggest Motor Honey)
knock-out rod (details in text)
mallet (mine is rawhide)
blank shell holder or metal disc about shell holder diameter
case trimmer with .30 caliber pilot

1. Shorten .223 brass. After trying a number of ways, I found that the
easiest way, and very fast, was to use my disc sander. It takes about 3
seconds per case using a no. 60 grit. No, the disk does not fill up with
brass. Push the case into the sander disk, removing material to about half
way between the neck and the shoulder. This may seem a little short to you,
but the case lengthens considerably as it is swaged.

2. Using a case inside-outside deburrer, remove the burrs. This is done so
that the case mouth may be opened without crushing, using an expander button,
or preferably, a Lyman "M" die.

3. Remove primer decaping pin assembly from the .30 Carbine full length
sizing die. Important! Set the die so that it touches the ram firmly
when the ram is raised.

4. Lube the case liberally (I use Motor Honey) and run it into the .30
Carbine die about 1/3 of the way. Do not force it beyond where it feels
good and tight. Doing so is to assure that a stuck case will result.
Take it from one who learned (several times) the hard way. Back case out
of die.

5. Re-lube case and ram to about 2/3 the way home. Same warning as in 4,
above. Back case out of die.

6. Re-lube case. This time you can run it all the way home. It will back
out pretty easily. Notice that at this point, the swaging process has been
accomplished just past the web of the case -- that's good.

7. Re-lube. Using a blank shell holder, set the sizing die so that it
presses firmly, but not hard, against the shell holder when the ram is
raised fully. The spring of the press, when the case is rammed all the
way home, will assure that the case rim is not swaged. This can also be
done by laying a metal slug, like a slug from a knock-out hole in an
electrical box, on top of any regular shell holder. The blank shell
holder is just a little more convenient.

8. Ram the case all the way home. Use a knock-out rod to remove the
case. Two things are important here.

First is that the knock-out rod should be as large in diameter as
possible. This will depend on the particular sizing die used. My RCBS
die has a 1/4x28 thd decapping rod. It will accommodate a .210" rod
which I made from a very long bolt that originally had 1/4x20 threads
rolled onto its end; one of those rods used to hold cable reels together.
To assure that it will not bend when struck with a mallet, the rod should
be only as long as is necessary to drive out the case. Mine is 3 1/2"
long. The rod head is handy to act as a retainer so that it does not
fall out of the die, but is not necessary. Note that it is not difficult
to drive out the fully swaged case when done as prescribed here, and the
rod need not be hardened as long as it is not too long. Mine is as soft
as any steel gets.

Second, when driving out the case, do not try to emulate Paul Bunyan.
Tapping the rod (I use a rawhide mallet) 3-4 times will remove the case
without bulging out the head. One mighty whack risks messing up the head
spacing, and more important, makes it difficult to get into the .223
shell holder. Out of about 80 cases that I have made so far, only a
couple have given me resistance. They were fixed by chucking into my
drill press and using a quick swipe of a half round file. If there is a
slight rounding of the head, it will not adversely effect the outcome.
This is a good time to wipe the lube off of the cases. Also, decapping
can done any time one chooses. I use a universal decapping die for this
task.

9. Chuck case into your trimmer and set to reduce the case length to 1.51".
Notice that the brass has lengthened significantly as it steps through the
swaging process. If it has been shortened as directed in step 1, only a few
turns of the trimmer handle will be needed.

10. You might want to try chambering your cases now to make sure that
they will fit. My die reduces the very base of this tapered case to
.360-.362". This is as perfect a fit as one can get in my revolver. I
do not know if these guns vary much in chamber diameters.

11. Next use either the provided .30 Carbine RCBS expander die or,
preferably, the Lyman "M" die to prepare the case mouth to receive the
bullet. If you expand prior to chambering for the first time, depending
on how much you bell the mouth, you may be alarmed to discover that the
case will not chamber. This is because of the relatively steep taper of
the case which will not stand for much belling and still chamber. Don't
worry, the loaded cartridge will have this bell removed by the crimp.

It is possible that the case mouth will benefit from annealing to keep it
from splitting but I chose to skip this process until I see need for it.
I have annealed the original brass because of the radical crimp applied
to the factory rounds.

At this point, your brass is ready to load.

Oh, and a picture of mine -
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6046/1895nagantrevolverbarrezr7.th.jpg (http://img8.imageshack.us/i/1895nagantrevolverbarrezr7.jpg/)

click to enlarge - Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I had mine threaded for use with a 9mm suppressor (1/2x28) and filed the spring to get a decent trigger pull.
I'll have to see about reloading it once I run out of loaded ammo.

[mooman76]

Sounds good. I need some more brass and I heard they quit making the substitute. I guess 32-20 works sometimes but the stuff I have has too thick of a rim. Anyway I have lots of 223 brass to play with.

[kidmma]

I've had good results with the Lee dies and Starline 32/20 The rim is thinner on the Starline stuff.

Hornady HBWC in .32 cal work good when seated just so that the cylinder will rotate when the revolver is cocked (not flush with the case). Light charges worked best. I use 2.8gr of 700x. If you get too hot the groups open up.

Also the Hornady 100gr XTP is quite accurate too. (3.2gr 700x)

A .30 carbine die will also resize the 32/20s.

Be sure to seat the bullets just long enough so the cylinder will rotate.

YMMV.

:bigsmyl2:

[desi23]

I've reloaded this cartridge for years using a 30 carbine set with the correct shellholder for the Nagant round. It works fine for sizing and flaring. I seat the bullets flush with the case mouth then use a rod and my drill press to seat them just below the case mouth. I tried a couple different tools to put the taper crimp back in and finally ended up using a 22Jet sizing die I had. They are fun little guns and when I first got one the only ammo available was expensive Fiocchi. I have gotten good case life loading this way and they work fine in my guns.

[Muskrat Mike]

I have two Nagant's and one will shoot 32-20 starline cases and one won't because the heads are too thick and binds up the cylinder.
I buy some of the HotShot ammo from Midway and after firing I trim the long cases down to 1.40". It helps to have a power trimmer! I then load an 85 grain lyman wadcutter sized .310 over 3.2-3.4 grains of Unique. I also load two .31cal 45 grain round balls over the same charge. they shoot about 700fps over my chronograph.
They are pleasant to shoot and seem very safe in my revolvers but that doesn't mean anything for yours so please be careful.
I load with a set of Lee dies that were made as a special run some years back for Midway which Midway may still have some. I also expand the necks with an old Lyman 310 neck expander size .311. Starline supposely made a special run of 32-20 brass with thinner heads awhile back also. I don't know because I couldn't locate any.
Reloading for my Nagant's is work but I enjoy the work and shooting the guns I call my ugly guns.
Mike