.410 load

[kjohn]

Hello. I have a nasty old Ishapore .410 chambered for 3". Can somebody suggest a charge for loading one or two Lee 92 gr .395 balls, with a Federal 410Sc wad? I have 700X, Unique, Red Dot, Trail Boss powder. I am not looking for any real accuracy, just want to have some fun with the old girl.

Feel free to share any experiences you have had with these .410 conversions. I have to use an O-ring over the base of a regular .410 shotshell to get it to fire.

I am thinking a fellow could also "paper patch" some wadcutter .38 Special cast bullets along with a plastic wad column. Pressure shouldn't be a problem, as these rifles, or is it shotguns, were originally made to fire .303 British.

[GP100man]

My girls love loadin & shootin 410 with ( I made it simple) .5cc dipper of CLAYS ( fast powder similar to 700x) A cardboard wad then 1.6cc of #9 shot capped with another card & glued.

Very low recoil & will hold a good pattern to 20 yds. or so !

All this is done with 444 marlin brass with the rim milled so it`ll fit a 45 LC shell holder.

Will 303 brass fire form for your Ishapore???

[Multigunner]

I have to use an O-ring over the base of a regular .410 shotshell to get it to fire.



You might try extending the firing pin protrusion by filing a bit from the rear of the bolthead shank. That would allow a firmer deeper strike on the primer.
It shouldn't require too much increase in protrusion.

[EnfieldMaint]

Do not, repeat DO NOT remove ANY material from the rear of the bolt head. Forward travel of the firing pin is stopped by the collar on the firing pin hitting the rear of the bolt head.

If you remove metal from the rear of the bolt head this will allow the cocking piece to hit the rear of the bolt body, and this is NOT to happen at any time. If you notice when screwing the bolt head into the bolt body the last approximate 90 degrees of bolt head rotation (Last 1/4 turn) is pushing the firing pin and cocking piece to the rear. This rearward movement creates an "air gap" between the rear of the bolt body and the forward face of the cocking piece and prevents them from striking each other.

This is called "bolt head timing" and is an adjustment done at the assembly factory and also made by the armourers when adjusting the Enfield bolt.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6586-a-1.jpg

Forward travel of the firing pin is stopped by the collar on the firing pin hitting the rear of the bolt head.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Page06Fig9.jpg

1/64 to 1/16 "air gap" between the cocking piece and rear of bolt.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Page06Fig9c.jpg

The rubber o-ring is fixing a head space problem or a rim thickness problem and you will NEVER fix this problem by removing material from the rear of the bolt head.

Be very careful about "advice" given in forums by people who do not understand "how" the Enfield rifle is to be properly adjusted.

[kjohn]

I loaded up 4 Federal 3" plastic hulls that originally had a roll crimp. I pretty much did a backwoods job, using the deprimer rod and the decapping base from a 303 Br. Lee Loader. So far so good.

I pushed a primer in by hand and finished seating it by pushing the hull against the bench.

I used a 1.0cc dipper of Red Dot, which, according to the Lee chart, gives 7.1 grains of powder.

I pushed in a Federal 410SC wad. (That's the only one I had for .410)

I pushed in two Lee round balls, .395 92 gr. (I realized later that I hadn't pushed them down into the wad, but just had them sitting above. Would have been quite a gap between the ball and the wad!)

I made a real ugly crimp using the 303 Br. Lee Loader resizer die. I just pushed down good and hard, then used the long rod used for tapping the resized cases out to kind of "finish" the crimp.

I made up four of these. I fired them at a plastic lid thingy that was approx. 4"x6" at about 40', and hit the thing most of the time.

Back at the lab, I found that, if I pushed the .395 balls down into the wad column, the casing swelled too much to allow it to be chambered. Hmmm..... back to the drawing board.

Next try - Reprime. Dump same load of powder in. then four cardboard wads made from an old Imperial rifle cartridge box. (Wrecked anyway)

Paper patched two balls with a mailing label. (Works like a charm, used about half a label)

2 more wads, then two more paper patched balls. Still a lot of empty space... I probably should have put some CoW above the first wads, below the first balls. Next three I'll do that...

Stay tuned.

[kjohn]

EnfieldMaint: Don't worry. I won't fiddle with any of the rifle/shotgun workings. I'll just keep using an O-ring. I bought a few so I can prepare ahead.

The next three hulls I loaded with 7.1 of Red Dot., three or four wads, a 2.8 dipper of CoW in the first, then 2.5 dipper in the last two, then wads, then paper patched balls with a bit of Lee lube on the paper, then crimp. On the last one, I put one wad over the balls. Getting to late to test fire, but will do that tomorrow and try to pattern them if it is not too windy, as it was this afternoon, plus it is snowing!!

[Multigunner]

Well I see Ed is back.

The Firing pin protrustion, if too short to insure ignition, is adjusted by filing the rear of the bolthead shank. Thats part of fitting boltheads to begin with.
Older manuals give pin protrusion as .040- .042, later sources give pin protrusion as .045-.055. If the pin protrusion is too short it just won't ignite the primer reliably if at all.

I would expect the standardization of pin protrusion with those of the No.3 and No.4 rifles was due to the slacker headspace requirements as wartime pressure on manufacture and need to keep well worn No.1 rifles in service.

Your .410 is not a service rifle anymore, it will not be firing .303 cartridges any more unless you choose to rebarrel it.
Since it will accept civilian .410 shells it has most likely been reamed out to do so.

Its common for these reamed .410 shotties to have misfires due to the thinner rim.

Unless you replace the bolthead, the headspace will always be on the long side for the .410 ammo you are using.

The civilian .410 shotshell is not a rifle cartridge case, and the shotshell does not generate more than a fraction of the pressure of a .303 rifle cartridge.


If the pin protrusion is at the low end of the scale of .042-045 you can file .01 from the rear of the bolthead shank to bring it to the recommended maximum protrusion, which may cure your misfire problem.
Otherwise get a longer bolthead which in itself will likely require the same sort of fine fitting to get sufficient protrusion. Or just start making brass shotshell cases big enough to fill the reamed chamber and fire without bulging and spliting.

Since the dimension of the bolthead governing headspace is from shoulder to face rather than from rear of shank to face, replacing a bolthead usually requires that the pin protrusion be adjusted. If you don't file the shank to acheive proper protrusion then you would fit a new unissued firing pin trimming it to length, these are occasionally available but cost about 20 bucks or more.

Wrapping rubber bands around the base is not a long term solution.
Compressed rubber is not a good substitute for the rim contacting the steel breech.
If your striker doesn't give good ignition misfires are the least of possible problems. Not long ago a hangfire detonated as the shooter opened the bolt of his SMLE, his hand was mutilated with loss of much of his thumb, the rifle was badly damaged as well. He's lucky he wasn't blinded.


PS
From Brownell's

For other firearms, the correct amount may be longer or shorter depending on the make and model. As a general rule, centerfire rifles and handguns usually measure between .050” and .060”. Shotguns are a little longer at .055” to .065”.
So the maximum protrusion for the .303 rifle is at the minimum protrusion for the civilian shotshell.

[waksupi]

Since Ed was already on a ten day ban, and violated it, he has been removed from the forum. If any one sees him show up again, let us know, and we will deal with it.

[Multigunner]

Well not to be pedantic I figure a short explanation of the differences in primer types is in order, since the gun in question was once a rifle designed to use military spec berdan primers but now is going to be using either standard shot shell primers or if brass cases are formed a modern Boxer type Large Rifle primer.

The original .303 used a sensitive but highly corrosive primer compound. The Berdan type primer pocket has a broad flat topped integral anvil. Pressures were particularly high so they could get by with a fairly soft cup. This allowed a low firing pin protrusion.
As time went on ammunition using boxer primers with their smaller anvil surface and harder cups became a common substitute, pin protrusion numbers then went up to .01 over the original maximum figure.

Shotshell primers require even deeper indentation to insure reliable ignition compared to LR boxer primers.
.410 shotshell rims are a bit thinner than milspec .303 rims which adds to the problem of loose headspace so common with Enfield actions.

When imported many .410 Enfields were rechambered for the larger diameter standard .410 plastic or paper shells.
If the original British .410 shell or home made shells using .303 brass are used in the reamed out chamber then bulging and possibly lengthwise case spliting can occur.

So if a Enfield shottie has already been reamed nothing is lost by modifying the pin protrusion for safe reliable use of the standard .410 shotshell.

The SMLE was never built to tight tolerances, a good deal of hand fitting was required at major steps in manufacture. So much so that during wartime parts too far out of spec to be assembled easily were sent off to a facilty where rifles could be put together by hand, mixing and matching parts and altering them when necessary. These rifles were to be held in reserve and used only in emergencies or as training rifles. They were supposedly destroyed but show up now and then.

The shotguns were usually put together using out of spec or worn actions, if any manuals exist for these I'd like to see one. If there were I seriously doubt they'd include instructions on establishing the pin protrusion for one of these rechambered to civilian .410 shot shell specs. That was never envisioned for these when in service.

[Harter66]

I've made a few 410s from 303 brass. I've a expander now that will open them up in 1 pass. 8gr unique, cardbord wad , 2 meat tray plugs, 1/2 oz of shot over shot card roll crimp in my colt die.

Seems like that would work for yours too.



Single shot commanchee pistol is what I'm feeding.

I've also used a dead soft .440 rb waded up to crimp just over half of the ball dia..

[Multigunner]

Remember his gun accepts the standard .410 hulls so it must have been reamed out to do so.
The .410 civilian hull and base especially, are larger in diameter than the .303 case or the British brass .410 shells.

As for headspace issues with the standard .410 shell due to its relatively thin rim, that rim is not much if any thinner than most commercial .303 rims.

According to Hatcher's notebook a shot shell is not affected by excess headspace till it becomes more than several hunderths over the recommended gap.
He included an illustration of a shotshell fired in a gun with .1 over maximum due to the barrel not being screwed in all the way. The rim had swollen but nothing unusual occurred.
Unlike the .303 cartridge the straight walled .410 is not going to generate enough pressure to grip the chamber walls to any significant degree, and the brass base isn't likely to form any annular rings.

Filing or stoning the rear opening of the bolt head shank by several thousandths or even .01 or so is unlikely to result in the cocking piece contacting the rear of the bolt, The gap there is usually on the high side of specs or even larger more often than not.
So long as theres no contact of cocking piece to bolt or the retractor stud in the cocking piece bottoming out in its groove extending firing pin protrusion to the max allowable for rifle primers won't be a problem, and should insure reliable ignition of shot shell primers.

Long ago I had looked into these conversions, intending to rebarrel an out of spec action I have to .410 using the standard US commercial 3" chamber.
Among the options considered was ordering Bell Blank cases for the 45-120 or similar case to use for brass cased shotshells and experiment with sabot loaded flecthettes.
The .410 has been used with no problems I know of in the .45-70 rifles and there are .45 Colt/.410 pistols and long arms.
A .45-70 case with a shot capsule is one possibility.
The case at base is a hair larger diameter than the specs for the .410, about .025 larger, but its depends on how tight the chamber was reamed.
These cases have a pretty thick rim so headspace shouldn't be a problem unless too tight rather than loose.
A buck and ball .45-70 cartridge was tested by the Calvary long ago, to be fired in a Colt style single action with cylinder long enough for that cartridge. It used three buckshot and a .45 round ball or short conical ball.

Brass .410 shot shells are available, but a bit pricey, probably a better alternative than the bell cases I mentioned, but the rims would be thinner than the .45 rifle cases.

[kjohn]

Plan B is looming on the horizon. I fired the factory Federal 3", then reloaded them, fired, reloaded, fired. One of the hulls let go at the rim, blowing a hole the same width as the extractor. The other three are swollen there as well. Having the O-ring on keeps the hull out a bit, leavin it pretty much unsupported where a notch is cut in the back of the barrel for the extractor to clip over the rim.

It would probably be okay to get one reload out of these hulls, or at least keep a close eye on the rim.

[Multigunner]

Plan B is looming on the horizon. I fired the factory Federal 3", then reloaded them, fired, reloaded, fired. One of the hulls let go at the rim, blowing a hole the same width as the extractor. The other three are swollen there as well. Having the O-ring on keeps the hull out a bit, leavin it pretty much unsupported where a notch is cut in the back of the barrel for the extractor to clip over the rim.

It would probably be okay to get one reload out of these hulls, or at least keep a close eye on the rim.

Wow thats a huge headgap! worse than the illustration in Hatchers notebook.
That gun has a serious problem.
You might need to examine the bolt and bolt head comparing them to a standard SMLE bolt.
I can't see how this sort of gap could form under any normal circumstances.

Check the breech of the barrel first.
I strongly suspect that when the barrel was reamed for the commercial .410 they ran the reamer full depth as if cutting the chamber for a break down .410, cutting a rim recess. If so that added around .060 to .070 or more to the distance between bolt face and where the rim would seat.

Thats about the only explanation I can think of.

You may have to have the breech faced and the barrel set back a thread or two.

Heres a site with shotshell and chamber dimensions.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/shotshellloads.html
The .410 is listed under 67 gauge

Heres an online readable excerpt section of Hatcher's Notebook.
http://books.google.com/books?id=yESNUKSg5aMC&pg=PA252&lpg=PA252&dq=shotgun+excessive+headspace+hatchers+notebook&source=bl&ots=AzCpZC_r5m&sig=ITVtEN2cbuoY7XmF-DzD6eKHczg&hl=en&ei=j7XfS6KGHILq9QTJxKDYCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA

Run it back to page 240 , thats were the illustrations are of a shell fired in a barrel that was two threads short of being screwed in fully.
Theres no way your shottie is going to be safe to shoot till you determine what the problem really is and rectify it.

[gifford]

This has been a most interesting thread. I have a RFI No.1 Mark III* dated 1944 that was changed to .410 marked RFI 1949. It appears that it was not bored out to accept US .410 shotgun shells as neither the 2 1/2" or 3" will chamber. T

he 2 1/2" .410 goes in about one third of it's length and stops. The .303 rifle round chambers and ejects just fine. I was told that it shoots a .303 shotshell.

The smoothbore is in excellent condition with only a couple of nicks in the wood and metal is unworn.

So it would appear that I could modify some commericial .303 brass and have a shootable specimen.

Anyone else here have an unrechambered Ishapore or RFI that they have made into a shooter, short of rechambering? Thanks. G

[Hang Fire]

A .410 is not just for busting bunnies, one can achieve 45-70 performance with heavy slugs in the right gun, and the pressures remain within SAAMI specs.

http://hoeningbigboresouth.com/Big410Ballistics.html

[kjohn]

Well, interesting thread, so far. I actually have two Ishapore .410's, a 3" and an original straightwall chamber. I shall restart my project to reload some .410 hulls and try them in both. I recall changing bolts in one (can't check right now, both at the shop) and IIRC, the problem of light strikes/misfires stopped. I will post my progress. :popcorn:

[Reverend Al]

Anyone else here have an unrechambered Ishapore or RFI that they have made into a shooter, short of rechambering? Thanks. G

My Ishapore .410 Musket is also unaltered and I had no trouble fire-forming standard .303 British cases for it. I annealed them first, primed them, loaded them with 8.5 grains of Nitro 100 (Trap shotgun powder), pressed in a 1/4 sheet of toilet tissue with a wooden dowel, filled the case to the mouth with bulk yellow cornmeal, and then topped it off with another 1/4 sheet of toilet tissue. I found if you pointed the muzzle straight up in the air the cases formed round without being lop-sided. If you held the muzzle horizontal the cases formed with a slight bulge on one side. The tough part was finding a .410 round ball mould to fit the bore. There are a ton of .390 and .395 round ball moulds on the market, but unfortunately they are a "rattling good fit" in my bore. I finally found an RCBS double cavity .410 round ball mould (low production and not often available) and I bought it. Still need to work up a load for it, but I'll use the diagrams I found online as a rough guide and try it with several different modern powders and see what happens.

https://i.imgur.com/fy3HB4D.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/WCPTFL3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FToT3vI.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zeyZGLc.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/jjKzJzN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cYtP7Lw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Emiz2p3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6DeamkK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dFA7lgv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/OM7JFXo.jpg

[pacomdiver]

I also have 2 of the 410 "muskets" that i load for, i use .395 round balls in mine, ive even tried 210g .410 bullets from my 41 mag but never got any decent accuracy from them. i got 4 packs of the Kynoch mk1 ball at the last big show in my area, so i will try them to see how the accuracy compares to my handloads

i also fireformed my brass with a 10g red dot charge and filled up with grits and a top cap of soap (the round is pushed into a bar of soap to "cap" it), i made 50 of them and ended up with 45 usable cases,

[Reverend Al]

I didn't lose a single case to splits when I fire-formed them (knock on wood), but I suspect the annealing and a good, stiff charge to "snap" them out to the chamber helped even though the Norma cases I formed were several times fired as .303 Brit. I've lost cases in the past from trying to fire-form them with charges that were too light to really snap them out briskly ...

[2152hq]

Plan B is looming on the horizon. I fired the factory Federal 3", then reloaded them, fired, reloaded, fired. One of the hulls let go at the rim, blowing a hole the same width as the extractor. The other three are swollen there as well. Having the O-ring on keeps the hull out a bit, leavin it pretty much unsupported where a notch is cut in the back of the barrel for the extractor to clip over the rim.

It would probably be okay to get one reload out of these hulls, or at least keep a close eye on the rim.

Many of the rechambered Ishapor 410's have excess headspace. The rechambering process was done quickly and en-masse.
No real precision to the process other than the reamer itself. Often attached to a hand held electric drill, the reamer was pushed into the chamber and bottomed out with a simple stop afixed to the to the extension shaft hitting the rear of the recv'r. How precise is that going to be. With pallet after pallet of dirty grease covered rifles in front of you to do, you can see where the mind of the rechambering expert may wander a bit during the process and QC suffer.

410 operates at the highest pressure of any of the common gauges. Factory stuff is around 14Kpsi. Still certainly not anywhere in the CF rifle round neighborhood of the 303 or similar. But with it's flimsey case/hull construction it doesn't take much to blow the rim/case head out in a weak spot in the chamber.
Those Federal case are two piece construction,, the plastic tube and a separate base wad inside. All held together by the thin brass case head simply crimped around the assembly. Nothing solid about it. If unsupported,,they blow out and especially after subjected to more than one unsupported loading.
Shotshell hulls of one piece design may give you a bit better service. The tube and base wad are one moulded piece. But it's no substitute for a good chamber spec.
Remington still makes it's 410's in one piece cases (Nitro). Winchester has dumped the one piece AA case back a wile ago and is now a 2 piece construction. The Federals and most imports are 2 piece as well.

I use the Federal 2 1/2 cases in my Enfield 410, but just one loading then toss them. They exhibit a slight bulge in front of the rim also,,a bit of a deep chambering given to the conversion. This one still had some fresh metal chips and a bit of cutting oil in the chamber and down in the magazine when I got it years back (Springfield Sporters). Didn't even take the mag out during the ream job?!

I save the better one piece cases for my Win 42. The federal cases seem to be available at the range quite often as throw aways.
I definetly throw em away after my one loading.

Careful!,,ain't no toy!