Opinion and evaluations!

[RMulhern]

After 15 or so years of messing around with and shooting Black Powder Cartridge Rifles....I have come to a conclusion regarding, what in my opinion is THE MOST CONSISTENT BPCR cartridge of all (for me) for accuracy and dependability!! Being lucky enough to have my own rifle range and being able to shoot long range whenever I wish.....I burn quite a bit of blackpowder each year....normally about 3 cases....99% shooting 800, 900, and 1000 yards! I have done this with a variety of calibers; .45/70, .45/90, .45/100, .45/110 and .50/90.....all shooting BLACKPOWDER! I have rifles from Shiloh Rifles, C. Sharps, Pedersoli, Meacham Rifles, and Browning. I have one rifle which I hardly ever shoot because.......IT OUTSHOOTS and is MORE DEPENDABLE for accuracy and consistency than any of the other calibers that I own! So you're asking yourself....."Well....if this one rifle is that good.....why don't you shoot it as your #1 rifle?" It's really simple....I LOVE MODEL 1874 SHARPS RIFLES! I love their looks, their actions, their history, and the way they feel when I pick one up! With that being said....the rifle that I refer to as my 'GO TO' rifle if I want to check out HOW MY EYE is holding up regarding MARKSMANSHIP is my 1885 Browning Hiwall in .45/70!! There....the secret is out!! I hate to admit this but this rifle is my most accurate and dependable for accuracy than any of the other 9 BPCR that I own!!

I have been accused on another site of being 'narcissistic' in nature but I can assure you that such is not the case! Rather I have been lucky enough over the past years when I was young to have had the best marksmanship instructors in the world at my fingertips for a period of 5 years when I had the occasion to have shot and trained with the USAAMU aka United States Army Advanced Marksmanship Unit. How does this relate to my posting here? Basically because I wish to BE ABLE TO GIVE SOMETHING BACK to anyone that wishes to learn about the game of BPCR and if my experience will help....then I am willing to offer it freely! Frankly I despise a 'blowhard' to the nth degree and do not consider myself as such!

This afternoon was a good day to shoot BPCR! I took the Browning 1885 Hiwall to the range along with some ammo I've had loaded for dang near 3 years and I laid down and shot prone from 800 yards. This rifle is equipped with a Hoke LR rear tang sight and an MVA #112 front sight. I was using for ammo a Postell bullet from a mould I had Steve Brooks make for me about 4 years back which has the upper two drive bands at an OD of .4495" so I can seat the bullet out such that I can charge it with as much as 80 grs. of FFF powder....whatever brand. This particular loading was with 76 grs. Goex Express FFF and the MV is somewhere around 1250 to 1270 fps. Was using WW brass and BR2 primers. Lately I have changed over to WLR primers because it has appeared that they have offered the least deviation for vertical than any other brand however the BR2 in the ammo I fired today was RIGHT ON! I fired 25 rounds and after the first 5 I had a fairly solid zero and fired 20 more. Out of the last 20 fired I had 14 tens, 5 nines just barely missing the ten ring, and one eight that I called out! I attempted to take a photo but my camera is on the repair list! This rifle and caliber consistently shoot to call for me! I have never tried shooting paper patch in this rifle but over the next month that will be my ongoing endeavor; to see how it works with PP! The reason for my posting this basically is to assist someone with info pertaining to the .45/70 cartridge that they should not feel as if they're working with an inferior cartridge....just because it's in .45/70 caliber! It has proven to me that it is a very dependable cartridge because I have fired some really good scores over time all the way back to 1000 yards using it....under a variety of conditions! Please keep in mind that I have not done this in competition...only here at my own range! I have basically worked with, over the past 3 years my two Shiloh .45/110s which I dearly love, and paper patch ammo but in all honesty I have not been able at this time to get the consistent performance from these platforms as I would desire! My hats off to Kenny Wasserburger for his accomplishments with his .45/110 rifles! I would have liked to have posted this also on the Shiloh Rifles site...FWIW....but out of respect for Kirk Bryan and family I would not do so.....since I was speaking to a different brand of rifle.....not that the brand was the main issue......rather the caliber!!

FWIW!!

[NickSS]

I have to agree with you as to the virtues of the 45-70 cartridge and to tell the truth the Browning (winchester rifles that I have seen being shot are clearly very accurate rifles. I also love the 1874 model Sharps having 5 of them in a three calibers. Also my most accurate black powder groups have been with the 45-70. I used to compete in Long range BPCR competition unfortunately my eye sight is not what it used to me following a stroke I had five years ago but when I was shooting it was with a 45-70 Shiloh LRE. Today I mostly shoot at the local club matches at 200 yards and am not in the winning circle much but I do have fun and would love the have your setup but the most I have is 50 yards in my back yard.

[RMulhern]

I have to agree with you as to the virtues of the 45-70 cartridge and to tell the truth the Browning (winchester rifles that I have seen being shot are clearly very accurate rifles. I also love the 1874 model Sharps having 5 of them in a three calibers. Also my most accurate black powder groups have been with the 45-70. I used to compete in Long range BPCR competition unfortunately my eye sight is not what it used to me following a stroke I had five years ago but when I was shooting it was with a 45-70 Shiloh LRE. Today I mostly shoot at the local club matches at 200 yards and am not in the winning circle much but I do have fun and would love the have your setup but the most I have is 50 yards in my back yard.

Nick

Just keep on shooting! I wish I had a Shiloh LRE in .45/70 to work with!! The main thing is......HAVING FUN!!:drinks::Fire::drinks:

[powderburnerr]

rick , start with a .446 money bullet when you try pp .

[RMulhern]

rick , start with a .446 money bullet when you try pp .

Dean

[smilie=w:And I just happen to have that mould!!

Thanks!

[ebert]

i sent you a pm, i have a shiloh 45/70 lre

[Gunlaker]

That is certainly interesting to hear! From reading BPCN it appears that those Brownings show up in the winners circle a fair bit in silhouette these days. It turns out that I, just yesterday, placed an order for the Winchester version of the same rifle. Stock must be low up here, as apparently I won't see it 'til November. No big deal, as I have more than a few rifles to play with already :mrgreen:

With that .446 mould, what have you been patching it up to? It must come out to a thousandth above bore or so?

Chris.

[semtav]

Boy did you put a smile on my face when I got to the part about which gun it is. ( I even forgave you for the Lyman 1000 recommendation) ;-)

Altho I don't have one in 45-70, I have the rest, plus a 45-70 that was rechambered to 45-120, and a 40-65 rechambered to 40-82.. And I think they are all equally as accurate. ( I still don't have my poop in a group on the 40-82 tho)

Sure glad I got mine when I did, cause now that you let the cat out of the bag, the price will surely go up.



Brian

[Red River Rick]

Narcissistic. Hmmmmm.................could that also mean "Old & Crusty"?



RRR

[John Boy]

Rick, that was a nice post. Enjoyed the read and am sure so did the folks lurking:drinks:
And don't feel badly - my 45-70 PP reloads frustrate the dickens out of me, from 100yds out to a 1000. Yet, I've loaded a couple of 45-75 batches using Fred Leethe's adjustable Sharps mould - and they shoot a house a fire out to 300yds

[405]

general ramble about whatever shoots best for you, I guess. I have a Shiloh in 45-70 and CSA in 45-110 both in M1874. Also, have an original 1874 Sharps in 44-90 SBN. Also, three original Win 1885s- two in 32-40 and one in 40-70 SS. To compare one against the other is like apples against oranges. For absolute accuracy I could throw in a couple of custom high power white powder shooters- in 308 & 260- either one can shoot rings around any of the "period" guns- still apples against oranges tho.

But, after shooting a ton thru each within the BPCR category the CSA 1874 has a slight accuracy edge over both the Shiloh 45-70 and the original 44-90 Sharps. Those three will easily outshoot the three Win 1885s. Interesting that the original holds its own very well and gives nothing away to the Shiloh and many times the difference in accuracy can't be measured. To me even though the straight grip CSA 1874 in 45-110 is the most accurate... the pistol grip 1874 Shiloh 45-70 is the most comfrotable to shoot because of a little less recoil and the pistol grip is a little more ergonomic. So, what does all that mean? not much

[semtav]

general ramble about whatever shoots best for you, I guess. To compare one against the other is like apples against oranges. For absolute accuracy I could throw in a couple of custom high power white powder shooters- in 308 & 260- either one can shoot rings around any of the "period" guns- still apples against oranges tho.

Not quite sure where you are coming from. You can't throw your 308 & 260 in cause he is strictly talking BPCR rifles here. You don't have a Browning so saying your CSA is your best is fine, but you don't have a Browning to compare it too. ( and admitedly he doesn't have a CSA, but does have a lot of others)
General Ramblings , maybe, but he is comparing BPCR guns not apples to oranges.Get a Browning, (the old Winchesters arent the same) then you can compare too.

[45 2.1]

general ramble about whatever shoots best for you, I guess. I have a Shiloh in 45-70 and CSA in 45-110 both in M1874. Also, have an original 1874 Sharps in 44-90 SBN. Also, three original Win 1885s- two in 32-40 and one in 40-70 SS. To compare one against the other is like apples against oranges. For absolute accuracy I could throw in a couple of custom high power white powder shooters- in 308 & 260- either one can shoot rings around any of the "period" guns- still apples against oranges tho.

But, after shooting a ton thru each within the BPCR category the CSA 1874 has a slight accuracy edge over both the Shiloh 45-70 and the original 44-90 Sharps. Those three will easily outshoot the three Win 1885s. Interesting that the original holds its own very well and gives nothing away to the Shiloh and many times the difference in accuracy can't be measured. To me even though the straight grip CSA 1874 in 45-110 is the most accurate... the pistol grip 1874 Shiloh 45-70 is the most comfrotable to shoot because of a little less recoil and the pistol grip is a little more ergonomic. So, what does all that mean? not much

While i'm not shooting blackpowder in the old boomers, the above statement in blue isn't quite correct. I've shot some of those old style rifles (in 45-70 and 38-55) that will give that modern centerfire a real problem shooting as well. Try that 308 at 1,000 yds as the posts author has and see if it can match it.

[RMulhern]

Dear 405

Ramblings?? Not hardly! But while you're throwing in your .308, your .260, go ahead and throw in a Tomahawk missile in your choices because man....that's REAL ACCURACY!!

My posting WAS NOT ABOUT any type of rifle; rather the entire gist of the post was in reference to THE CALIBER to whit .45/70! The attitude of many guys, especially those coming into the game are of the opinion that the .45/70 is a pipsqueak cartridge but....I beg to differ! I can load a WW case in this caliber with 90 grs. of FFF powder using Swiss and THAT is not a pipsqueak charge and it shoots exceedingly well all the way to Creedmoor ranges!!

In past competition, whether it be a gong shoot or LR Creedmoor, shooters using this cartridge have been able to place within the upper ten shooters and I know of at least one incident where a range record was set by a gentleman shooting the .45/70 in a LR event! Admittedly....the .45/70 isn't a 'house on fire' with the short and stubby bullets but neither are the other cartridges! But throw in a good bullet that has an excellent aerodynamically designed profile for optimum flight performance and the .45/70....IN MY OPINION based on prior experience can hold it's own with any of the other BPCR calibers!

However....it doesn't do too well against the Tomahawk missile!!

[cajun shooter]

Rick, I really enjoyed the posting until you said the 1885 outshot the 1874's. Ha!! Ha!! Just kidding. There is something that goes into your very soul when you shoot a 1874 Sharps in 45-70 by the way. In the past six months I have had a slew of medical problems arise that has kept me from making that drive to North Louisiana. I so much would love to come and shoot and try to learn a few things from you; like your PP of the 45 caliber bullet. The doctors have found that I have a paralyzed diaphragm that is only letting my left lung work. I have to breathe medicine through a machine 4 times a day for about 8 minutes then I am able to do most things but at a slower pace. I have never shot a 45-110 and as you I admire KW and his results. I have adopted a lot of his loading practices that work well. The annealing of my cases has shown results on the target end. Maybe one day I will be able to take you up on the offer you extened to me. Later David

[RMulhern]

David

Just continue to do what the Docs say.....and I'll include you in my PRAYER LIST!!

20 miles east of Baton Rouge!! Been there....done that! Once 'pon a time there was one Crazy Cajun that had corn planted all around and under one of those tall towers in that vicinity! He wanted fertilizer put on ALL HIS CORN.....under the tower! Soooooooo......we loaded up two airplanes.....had to climb up to 1500' and we applied fertilizer to his corn!! He was happy as two pigs laying in a mudhole!!

Keep on shooting!![smilie=w::veryconfu

[SharpsShooter]

When you get to paper patching the 45-70, I think it brings out the best in the old workhorse. I've had several over the years and truthfully couldn't justify a longer case 45 caliber. Here is my progress so far this spring with PP n the 45-70.

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/PP485grTomBallardMould2.jpg

I bought the mould from Madcaster shortly before he passed away. I believe he would like that group :D

SS

[semtav]

I'm biased, but I think it's the gun. Winchester(Browning) 1885 45-90



http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae53/S2D/camerapics390.jpg?t=1272674897



Load # 5 in my 1000 yd load development. 10 shots @ 100 yds 30 mph quartering tailwind sandbag over pickup hood. 1 3/4" if I discount the high flier. (hey even the pickup was shaking in that wind, I should get a mulligan).)

[montana_charlie]

Are those DENTS where the bullets impacted?
What were you shooting at...somebody else's pickup?
CM

[semtav]

Are those DENTS where the bullets impacted?
What were you shooting at...somebody else's pickup?
CM

Local sherriff's Pickup ;) (I painted over the star!!!)



actually I go to the dump and get appliance doors. that is a refrigerator door.

Dryer doors work good at the 100 yd. Big doors work great when you get out a long ways and don't have a good sight setting yet.


http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae53/S2D/camerapics392.jpg?t=1272681682

4 loads on a dryer door.

(difference between load #4 and Load # 5 was 2 gr increase in powder!!)

[RMulhern]

Nothing beats an abandoned SILO for a real nice BIG BONG!! There's one in my area that I use.....and from 1200 yards when the wind is right....the BONG is very loud!!

[semtav]

we need a most unique target contest. Your silo got me to thinking an old 500 gal fuel tank might make a good sound a 500 yds.

[cajun shooter]

When I visit my friend from SASS shooting Taco Bill at his farm outside of Natchez on the west side that's what we shoot at. William has about 1500 acres and sitting on it is a old rivit plate silo. We just spray a black mark and back up. It is so much fun and those 535 postell just leave a splat mark.

[montana_charlie]

I go to the dump and get appliance doors.So...if you want to put pasters over your holes...you have to carry a welder with you?
CM

[semtav]

So...if you want to put pasters over your holes...you have to carry a welder with you?
CM

Ha, No I just recycle it by taking it back to the dump and getting another

[semtav]

Dag Nabbed it RM, its all your fault. I've been eyeing this 45-70 for several months now finally convincing myself I didn't need a 45-70. Now sitting here for several days watching the howling wind and rain, I got bored and went and spoke for it. I'm still not going to like it as much as my 45-90. My mind is just made up about that. [smilie=b:.

[405]

Dear 405

Ramblings?? Not hardly! But while you're throwing in your .308, your .260, go ahead and throw in a Tomahawk missile in your choices because man....that's REAL ACCURACY!!

My posting WAS NOT ABOUT any type of rifle; rather the entire gist of the post was in reference to THE CALIBER to whit .45/70! The attitude of many guys, especially those coming into the game are of the opinion that the .45/70 is a pipsqueak cartridge but....I beg to differ! I can load a WW case in this caliber with 90 grs. of FFF powder using Swiss and THAT is not a pipsqueak charge and it shoots exceedingly well all the way to Creedmoor ranges!!

In past competition, whether it be a gong shoot or LR Creedmoor, shooters using this cartridge have been able to place within the upper ten shooters and I know of at least one incident where a range record was set by a gentleman shooting the .45/70 in a LR event! Admittedly....the .45/70 isn't a 'house on fire' with the short and stubby bullets but neither are the other cartridges! But throw in a good bullet that has an excellent aerodynamically designed profile for optimum flight performance and the .45/70....IN MY OPINION based on prior experience can hold it's own with any of the other BPCR calibers!

However....it doesn't do too well against the Tomahawk missile!!

Nope, subjective, anecdotal evidence is just that. Comparing a Win 1885 in 45-70 to a Shiloh 1874 in 45-70 IS like apples to oranges. The very next 1874 you pick up and load for may outshoot the 1885, and on and on and on. The tightest group I ever witnessed out of one of these was shot using a CSA 1885 in 45-70- legitimate 3/8" at 300 yds. For my guns, my loads, my brass, my bullets, etc., the tightest groups, over time, after 1000s of rounds and load variations too numerous to list, my CSA 45-110 outshoots my Shiloh 45-70. Does that mean much statistically about CSA vs Shiloh or a 45-70 vs a 45-110- nope.

[hydraulic]

I have a Browning BPCR in .45-70. I went to Quigley last year. It was the first shoot I have gone to, and at age 71 I just went for the fun of it. Took an old '79 trapdoor and some shells loaded with Elephant, and just had a good old time. Decided I needed a better rifle, so bought a Browning at Alliance last fall. It is the first good rifle I have owned, although I have shot a great many Winchester '85's and 86's, mostly .40-82's, over the last 50 years, as well as any number of '92's and '94's, all made before 1920. That Browning is just awe inspiring! I don't do anything special about loading for it; WW brass, full length resize, compress 70 grs. of Swiss 2F .20 under an oatmeal box wad, and seat a RCBS 530 gr. bullet cast from straight WW's. No crimp. Just take out the decapper from the resize die and "bump" the cartridge to remove the bell. I can set my bony old rear down and keep 10 shots in the 9 and 10 ring, with an occasional 8, at a hundred yards consistently. That rifle has the curious habit of putting the bullet exactly where the sights are. I can call my shots without fail. I drove out to Alliance this week and shot up a hundred rounds getting my sight setting, but when it came time for the match this morning it was 40 degrees with a 40 mph wind and my old bones just couldn't take it so I came home. But I'll be at the Q again this year and they better watch out for me.

[John Boy]

Pictures, they really tell the full story instead of words what the 'lowly' 45-70 will do. Here's a ragged hole in the target made by 14 Postell bullets out of 25 trigger pulls @ 100yds
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Targets/PDRM2558.jpg

And again what the lowly 45-70 will do at 1000yds to a 10" X ring with a Postell in a Sharps, plus the near misses. The 3 black holes are from some a'hole shooting armor piercing rounds. Was a tad windy that day too, like 20 plus
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgway%20Oct%202008/PDRM3577.jpg

[Gunlaker]

Semtav, it must be hard to fold up those fridge doors to keep 'em in your records [smilie=l:

I keep targets for all of my test loads folded up in my basement. But mine are paper [smilie=l:

Chris.

[Southern Son]

I agree that the 45/70 is a great all rounder for BPCR, It ain't hard to load 85grains into the case with the right boolit (Steve Brooks tapered creedmore does it for me) for long range work, it does well for hunting, will knock over rams, will ring gongs and will do OK on paper, I don't think that there is anything that it cannot do.

On the unusual targets side of things, where I grew up I had a mate I would shoot air rifles with in his back yard. About 10 houses up the street was a Telephone Tower. About 50 meters tall with a large dish on top. We would shoot our air rifles at it every now and then and when you got a hit, you could hear a distant "clank". I often wondered if it effected anyones phone calls?

[semtav]

Semtav, it must be hard to fold up those fridge doors to keep 'em in your records [smilie=l:

I keep targets for all of my test loads folded up in my basement. But mine are paper [smilie=l:

Chris.

Ha, most of my test loads I don't want to keep!!
the rest, I keep digitally

[Doc Highwall]

semtav, I will sure say you keep a permanent record of your targets, just a little heavy to bring over to a friends house to show.

[montana_charlie]

I rarely see a discarded appliance at our little county dump. So, it would be difficult to stay supplied with targets when depending on that source.
Maybe semtav's neighbors can keep him in smooth metal, but I think he means to do a lot of shooting this summer.

Does that mean we may eventually be looking at groups decorating 'traffic signs'?

CM

[semtav]

Does that mean we may eventually be looking at groups decorating 'traffic signs'?

CM

Nope, I think the kids around here already used up all those.

[Don McDowell]

I have a Browning BPCR in .45-70. I went to Quigley last year. It was the first shoot I have gone to, and at age 71 I just went for the fun of it. Took an old '79 trapdoor and some shells loaded with Elephant, and just had a good old time. Decided I needed a better rifle, so bought a Browning at Alliance last fall. It is the first good rifle I have owned, although I have shot a great many Winchester '85's and 86's, mostly .40-82's, over the last 50 years, as well as any number of '92's and '94's, all made before 1920. That Browning is just awe inspiring! I don't do anything special about loading for it; WW brass, full length resize, compress 70 grs. of Swiss 2F .20 under an oatmeal box wad, and seat a RCBS 530 gr. bullet cast from straight WW's. No crimp. Just take out the decapper from the resize die and "bump" the cartridge to remove the bell. I can set my bony old rear down and keep 10 shots in the 9 and 10 ring, with an occasional 8, at a hundred yards consistently. That rifle has the curious habit of putting the bullet exactly where the sights are. I can call my shots without fail. I drove out to Alliance this week and shot up a hundred rounds getting my sight setting, but when it came time for the match this morning it was 40 degrees with a 40 mph wind and my old bones just couldn't take it so I came home. But I'll be at the Q again this year and they better watch out for me.

Hydraulic it was surely good to see you again, and I sure couldn't fault you guys for leaving.
Most of us either ran out of enough windage or were pushing the limits. Score that won the longrange was 29 if that tells you much.
Today was a little better, but the light was tricky and the wind was switching fast.
Harlans relay on the buff had to jump from 3 minutes left to 2 minutes right and that was during the relay.
Top score was a 32 today.
See ya at the Q, and don't forget to stop in at Baker on the way!

[hydraulic]

Don: I've got this guilt monster hanging on my neck since leaving Saturday, but man, I just couldn't take any more of the 39 degrees and 40 mph winds. Best thing was seeing you and Kurt and Harlan and some of the other gang and I'll definately see you at the Q.

[Don McDowell]

Charlie don't sweat it, I think if about 2/3 of us had the same idea, just wasn't smart enough to pickup and leave.
See ya at the Q, and don't forget about Baker....

[RMulhern]

Don

And YOU.....wanted me to drive 1500 miles to FREEZE MY **** OFF AGAIN????

The first time at Alliance I had to help shovel 15" snow off the firing line!!

[Don McDowell]

[smilie=s: Yessir it's been a long time since we last shot together.
The only thing that needed shoveling this time was the BS[smilie=w:

[RMulhern]

John Boy

I've known a long time that YANKEES ARE TIGHTWADS......but next time you shoot one of the RAGGED ONE HOLERS.......put up a new target!! I'll send you the $$$$$ for some new ones if ya need it!!:grin::kidding::grin: