Bottom pour or dipper?

[Tom-ADC]

Not sure where I read it but when casting large bootis say a .459 500+ gr boolit which do you prefer bottom drop lead pot or a dipper?
I think I read you can do big boolits with a bottom drop but????

[Lead Fred]

I use a dipper for 405s and 500s

I only use single cavity molds and one 6 cavity I just picked up.

I got a killer deal on a furnace, so I didnt get a bottom pour

[Cowboy T]

I find a bottom drop lead pot for any casting. It's just easier. The biggest I've ever done is 320 gr, and no problems there.

If your mould is up to the proper temperature, you should have no problems.

[Southern Son]

Tom, for the bigger boolits, you will find that using a ladle will get you more consistant wieghts frim boolit to boolit. I was using a bottom pour pot for a while and as hard as I tried, I still could not get my 457132 mold to throw consistant weights. I tried pressure casting, slow fill, fast fill, tilt the mold, long drop, more heat, less heat and then I tried something really crazy, I dug out my old RCBS dipper and started getting much better results.

For the smaller boolits (under 400grains), bottom pours will do OK (I have been told, since getting the results with the larger boolits, I just kept on using the dipper).

[mooman76]

I perfer to use the dipper on large moulds, but then again I use the dipper on all moulds so I have nothing to compair it to.

[Tom-ADC]

Works for me I'm adding a dipper to the shoping list.

[cajun shooter]

Buy a Wagge pot direct for about $160. They are well made and will last for years . The setup is the best for laddle work

[Cactus Farmer]

I bottom poured boolits for 30+ years and then got a 45-70 and had no joy until I was told to do it like Grandpa did it. Grandpa would have BP if be had had a BP pot,right? Dipping will be slower,that said, I dip ALL boolits that need to be the best I can make. Long range and hunting ammo gets the extra time to insure that quality. Plinking and short range boolits get the bottom pour treatment.
Clear as mud?

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I have no problem using my 10# Lee pot to Pressure Pour in large molds. Biigest I have is a 457132 Lyman that drops about 540 grains. Once the mold and pot are hot everything runs fine. I also usin a Lyman dipper and do not see any real weight difference in batches. I segreagate bullets by method of pouring though.
I have lapped the pour spouts on my Lee´s also so they do not drip at me. Used to get some fine artistic statues.

[Dan Cash]

Part of bullet uniformity is uniformity in pour rate. A dipper gives that to me. I run two moulds at a time which creates a good rythm. Just now I am pouring big .45-70 slugs and .311 bullets. I am using two posts and two dippers but the rythm remains the same. You can only pour so fast and for quality bullets, a ladle is as fast as anything and more versatile for producing quality projectiles.

[pdawg_shooter]

I give up on bottom pour, just couldnt get uniform weights. I know it is faster but I prefer quality of quantity anytime.

[montana_charlie]

I give up on bottom pour,
Me too...almost.
When I get a new mould, I find out what it likes for dipper casting. Then I give it a try with the bottom spout.
But, I have never bottom poured more than a few that were worth keeping for plinkers.

CM

[Ben]

I'm a " dipper man " and have been for 40 yrs. No complaints from me regarding the dipper system.

[NSP64]

I started using a dipper when casting big RB and slugs for shotgun and now use it for everything. I have been thinking of disabling my Lee drip-o-matic for ladle only.

[rondog]

Interesting. I still haven't tried casting yet, but I just assumed that bottom-pour was the modern, high-tech way to do it. I bought a new dipper ladle thingie on eBay, and had been kicking myself because "you'll never use that, you'll have a fine new bottom-pour furnace someday! Why'd you buy that?"

Well, looks like it was a wise buy after all.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Well, this is the opinion of an Ol'Coot, so what can you expect for noth'in.

Anyway, be that as it may, I started out with the Lyman ladle with the little nipple on the side and went that way for some period of years.

Got to think'in a bottom pour just must be better, that is until I gave them a try.

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, the Rowell bottom pour ladle with a large lead pot is the fastest way to cast I have ever seen or tried.

When my partner and I get going, we will run 4 - 5 two to six cavity molds at one time. I'm pouring and tending the pot as rapidly as possible and the partner is opening molds and setting them back in line ASAP.

Good as a bottom pour - Lyman, RCBS, or Lee may or may not be, it would take 2 - 3 side by side to heat lead fast enough to get the production I desire.

I use an OLD!!! Colman white gas stove and a large pot and cast until I'm needing to call it quits and never run out of metal.

The Colman can put out way more heat then I need, but with that stove and the big pot, I have enough melted metal to allow for adding back sprews and ingets of fresh metal all the while maintaining a good casting temp.

My ingets are mostly in the range of 3 - 4lbs each, so a small electric pot would require waiting while the melt comes back to casting temp.

The 1lb size might be OK for the bottom pour, but that is a slow way to go when melting and cleaning up a big batch of WW.

I tried the bottom pour and would have been delighted to see it work to my standards, but sad to say, it just didn't.

AS I am getting up to speed with the 45/70, my last casting session was with a single 2 cavity RCBS 405gr mold, but once I get my new and on order LBT 4cavity mold and considering the great way they cast, I see no reason not to go back to pouring with a group of molds.

:cbpour::castmine::lovebooli

Keep en coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Crash_Corrigan]

When I bought a new rifle I also bought a new mold for the boolits, This is a Sharps 50-90 calibre BPCR and the mold casts a .511 dia 695 Gr boolit.

I figured that I would need to ladle cast this huge boolit. I bought a nice ladle and tried it out. No joy. I have never ladle cast any boolits and I was all fingers and thumbs and lead alloy spilled all over my kitchen floor. Not damaged as I liberally coat the casting area with about 8 layers of opened up newspapers.

I then out of frustration fired up the reliable and trusty Lee 4-20 and started casting. Once the mold was hot I was getting perfect boolits every time. When weighed after water cooling I found them to be plus or minus only 1/2 gr offa 695 gr.

I pan lubed them and they work great. So I can say after casting over 400 of these huge boolits that bottom cast boolits also get the job done and have with my experience been produced in a very quick fashion and they are of hight quality.

However there is a technique which must be followed. The flow of alloy must go down through the center of the hole in the sprue plate. No splashing nor swirling around the hole to fill the cavity. By dropping a solid stream of alloy straight down through the center of the hole the cavity fills quickily and the air can escape around the sides of the stream. If not done correctly I got voids in the castings and the weights went crazy in the downwards fashion.

It does take approx a full 3 to 4 seconds of a full open valve to fill that cavity and to get a generous sprue. Then I watch as the sprue hardens and a dimple forms in the center where some of the sprue puddle is drawn into the cavity as the alloy cools. Only then do I open the sprue plate and dump my boolit into a bucket of water.

[Capn Jack]

I just tried a bottom drop pot after years of using a ladle. Was I disappointed.:cry:

Using a double mold, I was flying right along. [smilie=w: Then I started weighing them. I'm rather anal about my rifle bullets, so they have to be within 1/2 a grain. I had 50% rejects! The rejects all had pinholes in the base of the boolit. I thought..lead isn't hot enough, so I turned up the pot. Then the lead started filling the vents. I had little fins on the boolits, they would stick and the mold got hard to open. I cleaned out the pot and went back to my 10% reject with a ladle
*Note this is a double .459 300gr. GC mold from RCBS.:violin:

[HDS]

It's weird how different opinions people have, on this swedish pistol shooters forum everybody loves their bottom pour pots, mostly Lee 4-20s and they have the opposite opinion on using dippers, one guy says he only uses a dipper for making 40mm bullets for his black powder cannon :D

I am going to start casting for .44mag and maybe .45ACP and 9mm later too and I am trying to figure out what I'll want.

[Lloyd Smale]

if your getting inconsistant weights with even large bullets using a bottom pour you either have the pour rate or temp set wrong. Ive casted probably well over a million bullets on with a bottom pour and can easily get just as good of bullets even when casting 500 grain 512s with a bottom pour as i can with a dipper and do it with alot less work. Its just like learning anything else new. It takes a bit of time and trial and error before you get the feel for it.

[Capn Jack]

Thanks Lloyd,[smilie=s:

I'll give 'er another try. I was holding the mold tightly against the spout on the pot and a lot of times it would try to stick there. I believe that's why a lot of the boolits had pin holes in the bottoms

:holysheep !!!

Now a friend of mine said,"No hold the mold away from the spout until it fills. Sounds messy, but I'm going to try it.:coffee:

[robertbank]

I pour thousands of pistol/rifle bullets and use the bottom pour pot (RCBS Pro Melter). I found it to be so much faster than pouring with a ladle. I set the pot on high andwater quench all my bullets. It takes a bit of practice but once you get on to it I think you will find your bullets willb e consistent as to weight and quality. I usually have three moulds going at once in order to keep the moulds from overheating.

Good Luck

Take Care

Bob

[sargenv]

I find that every time I pour from my bottom pour, I have to relearn what the mold likes. I can't give any real advice other than keep at it. Some ppl like the dipper, others like the bottom pour. I found that the dipper didn't work for me so the bottom pour just seemed easier. I have tried to pour fast and slow and found that the slow method seems to get better fillout and I try to keep my molds at a steady temp, cooling them when the sprue cuts too easily. I warm my molds up by pouring without the sprue in place so that I can easily separate the cavities and dump out the sample bullets with the puddles on top. I run about a half dozen of these casts before putting the sprue in place and start casting my real boolits. All of that goes back into the pot once poured. I found that casting temp between 650 and 700 on my thermometer works good and gives pretty good results. My usual alloy is WW with a little bit of added tin.

[mdi]

OK fellas, thanks for your experiences. But, I'm wondering why would ladle pouring makes for better large slugs? If you think about it, logically, a bottom pour would produce a more consistant flow of molten lead. Not trying to argue, want to know.

BTW; I do both, depends on how I feel at the moment, and I get good boolits from both methods.

[shdwlkr]

I have gone from bottom pour to ladle pour just cause I can and I have more fun doing it. My pot is a Lee and it kept plugging up on me so I went to ladle pour and can still use my plugged pot. Yes I know I could clean it but just don't want to waste my time doing it and am looking at a 20 pound laddle pour pot.

[bohokii]

ive done so many with a skillet and a spoon

[skeet1]

I used to ladle pour all my bullets even though I had an old Saeco bottom pour pot. I tried to use it with the mould tight against the bottom of the pot and then held away. I varied the flow from fast to slow and no matter what I did I couldn't make it it work right. Well the time came for a new pot and being frugal that meant a Lee pot. I was going to buy a dipper pot but there wasn't much difference between it and the 4-20 bottom pour so I thought I would try one more time.

Well after suffering all that time with the old Saeco the Lee works great from the bottom of the pot when I held it away with a fast stream and let it flow over the sprue plate to make a decent size sprue. Very happy with the new Pot.

Skeet1

[DukeInFlorida]

I've done a bunch of casting with a dipper. However, it was mostly fishing weights, and some bullets. The bullet casting was so tedious that it made more sense (to me) to do it with a bottom pour pot. My first bottom pour was a Lee 20 pounder, and that was OK for the price.

But, after a while, I was looking for better quality, and less issues with the pot.

I'm now happily casting with an RCBS Pro Melt (20 pounds), and I wouldn't do it any other way.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think thats the reason at least half the people that bad mouth bottom pour pots do so. The only experience they have with them is with lees.
I've done a bunch of casting with a dipper. However, it was mostly fishing weights, and some bullets. The bullet casting was so tedious that it made more sense (to me) to do it with a bottom pour pot. My first bottom pour was a Lee 20 pounder, and that was OK for the price.

But, after a while, I was looking for better quality, and less issues with the pot.

I'm now happily casting with an RCBS Pro Melt (20 pounds), and I wouldn't do it any other way.

[SharpsShooter]

if your getting inconsistant weights with even large bullets using a bottom pour you either have the pour rate or temp set wrong. Ive casted probably well over a million bullets on with a bottom pour and can easily get just as good of bullets even when casting 500 grain 512s with a bottom pour as i can with a dipper and do it with alot less work. Its just like learning anything else new. It takes a bit of time and trial and error before you get the feel for it.

Amen Loyd!


Temperature and good notes are key. A thermometer is worth more than a dipper. To achieve success, use first a good clean alloy, poured at consistent rates and correct temperatures. Once you determine the numbers, repeatable quality castings are a snap. I run a 10 and a 20 pounds pot. Both produce fine 540gr postells.

SS

[DLCTEX]

I cast boolits up to 540 gr. with a Lee bottom pour with good results. If you pressure pour it helps to pull the mould slightly away when it is filled to make a puddle on the sprue plate to avoid the Pits in the base. Temp is King in pouring good, consistent boolits, large or small.

[mdi]

Nobody knows why?

[Capn Jack]

:holysheep I guess it's just like anything else...90% Technique. :coffeecom

[sergeant69]

dammit! i wanted to bottom pour when i started back again. guess not! can someone suggest a GOOD ladle/dipper and technique? THANKS

[Cap'n Morgan]

Nobody knows why?

I believe it's not because ladle pour is better than bottom pour, but because you eliminate some of the variables involved in bottom pouring, like varying pressure depending on the amount of lead in the pot. I use the same BP technique as Crash Corrigan describe, and find it much easier to get uniform results this way, but it takes a little getting used to. Also, splashing inside the cavity is more pronounced when bottom pouring, causing more wrinkled boolits unless the mold is up to temp. When it comes to boolits I'll take whiskers over wrinkles any time... with women it's the other way around :-P

[Croomrider]

OK fellas, thanks for your experiences. But, I'm wondering why would ladle pouring makes for better large slugs? If you think about it, logically, a bottom pour would produce a more consistant flow of molten lead. Not trying to argue, want to know.

BTW; I do both, depends on how I feel at the moment, and I get good boolits from both methods.

I used to cast by pouring a full ladle of lead over the top of the mould and let the excess run back into the pot. I think the reason this gives more consistent weights is that it insures that the sprue cools last. If the sprue cools last it lets the bullet cavity pull in more molten lead as it cools and contracts and leaves no voids in the bullet. If you pour from a bottom pour, you just fill it up and don't allow extra moulten lead to pour over the sprue. If the sprue cools first it can leave a cavity in the bullet. That being said, I do not think a small cavity that is fairly well centered in the base of the bullet affects accuracy to an appreciable degree unless it is used for long range.

Now with the above explanation out of the way I will say that I have started casting pistol bullets with a Lee 6 cavity and a Lee bottom pour pot and will never go back to ladle pouring for this type of application. I love it, and you can make tons of bullets of very reasonable quality in a big hurry!

Mike

[Capn Jack]

OK, OK...I take it all back :mrgreen:

Had some time yesterday and took the old Lyman 61 apart again. This time I went through and totally cleaned the seat area, (again) then I used valve grinding compound to lap in the valve (again). Put it all together and filled it with water. :holysheep
It leaked worse than ever.:groner: Took it apart (again). This time I put the stem in the lathe and changed the angle of the seat a little, then I put it in a drill motor and seated it in again with valve grinding compound. Re-assembled and filled with water. [smilie=w:It didn't leak a drop!!
Fired it up and cast 60 with the 300gr. dbl. mold. Held the mold aprox 3" under the spout and let a generous sprew form. Half-way through the drip started again, but only once every 5 secounds. I can live with that.:-P

The real news is...all except 3 of the boolits cast to within + - 1/2 GR.[smilie=w:

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Please note, I am not refering to a recent posts in the following, just the fact that some stones have in the past gone both directions ---------------------


YEP!!!!!!!!!, it is indeed weird how we have what works for each of us.

There are known and respected voices on this thread who, if I hadn't been there and tried that, might even convince me to try the bottom pour method.

However, if they will do the same for me, I won't throw stones in their direction if they return the favor.

I have tried the bottom pour, and have watched others while in process, and for me and IMHO it just won't work up to my level of requirment/production.

Remember, your going to be nice here, NO ROCKS!

I cast good boolits, they are not worthy of remelting BEFORE shooting, but casting is a means to an end for me, not something I do, like reloading, just for the fun of it.

I need to set up each time I cast, and then afterward take down and put away, so it is not a spur of the moment thing.

Therefore I do wish maximum production from my casting sessions, production far greater then would be possible from the typical electric and/or bottom pour pots.

The volumn of metal is much too small, and with the speed of the typical pot, I would need multipal pots, probably 2 or 3 at the very least - to keep enough metal ready to go.

As I stated back many posts ago, I like to cast with a partner and depending on the outside temp. we run at least 4 - 5 molds, four to six cavity whenever possible.

2 - 2 1/2hours is about all I can handle in a casting session, before back and legs really starting to complain. So, considering the last two sessions produced about 125lb of boolits you can see I need a good and continuing supply of hot metal.

The first of the last two sessions was with a new partner - who buy the way shares in the production, - so about half or more of that session was at much slower then normal pace. But even at that, over a total of 5 hours or less we averaged 25lbs an hour.

With the realistic average, the pace with which we started the second session, being closer to 35 - 40 lbs. of production per hour, you can see that it would require a number of pots, all running at the same time, to produce my desired volumn.

Now, remember no throwing stones here!

AS STATED, I would be delighted to work with a bottom pour pot, rather then getting out the Ol'Colman stove and setting up and then cleaning up an putting away again, but without going to a commercial level system with the BIG$$$$$$$$$ involved, I don't see that happening.

To bad we can't all get together and each of us learn from the other, but as that is not likely to happen, your just going to need to take me at my word that my maximized effort does produce quality boolits and lots of them very rapidly.

So again, each of us has developed our own method, or are in the process of doing so. Can we learn from each other? You bet, but until we can somehow get together for a hands on learning time, throwing stones sure won't help the progress.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot:cbpour:

[BruceB]

Poundage of the finished product is largely unimportant as a single variable. TIME is the determining factor, and the only difference between casting light bullets or heavy bullets is the slightly-longer time needed to fill a larger cavity. The number of bullets cast is the important figure, I think. All the hand motions, etc are the same between heavy and light bullets.

Using a 200-grain bullet as an easy-to-calculate mid-range weight, one pound of alloy yields 35 bullets.

I say this with utter seriousness and truth: With ONE 2-cavity mould and my RCBS bottom-pour pot, I can turn out 14 POUNDS of 200-grain bullets in one hour (500 per hour). With ONE 4-cavity Lyman mould, I can also cast 23 POUNDS of 200-grain bullets (800 per hour). On good runs, these figures can be exceeded without undue effort, and on occasion over 1000 bullets have been cast in one hour from a 4-cavity mould. Using more than one mould actually slows me down, because the way I do it, there's zero down-time waiting for anything to cool. Bullet quality is excellent.

The heaviest bullets I've cast to date weigh 888 grains in straight WW for the .50 BMG, also cast from the bottom-pour pot and also without problems. Crank up the heat!

Casting is not a means for income or trading stock for me, and I find that the production rate I use generates ample supplies of bullets for my personal purposes. That's probably true for the vast majority of casters on this Board. I've been beating the drum for the speedcasting method I use for so long that even *I* am sick of it, but for one more kick at the cat, go to the top of Page Two on the "Stickies" forum and read the write-up ("BruceB's Speedcasting Method").

[Tom-ADC]

Right now I'm using my Lee bottom pour to make small ingots out of big ones.
I can see how practice makes perfect, Later this week I'll try my 1st boolits all will be 500 to 535 gr for my 45-70.
Crank up the heat:grin:

[StarMetal]

I ladle poured for years. Then I bought me a RCBS furnace. I'll never go back to the ladle even if it means I have to quit casting.

I disagree with the ladle making more uniform bullets. I believe they are even. If you don't put the ladle spout against the sprue plate, that is, if you are pouring a stream from it, then how could it make more uniform weight bullets? A stream of lead is a stream of lead and the mold doesn't know where it's coming from. If anything a 20 pound bottom pour would have more force in the stream. Now for those that put the spout again the sprue plate....that can be done with the bottom pour also.

I'm happy with the quantity and quality of my bottom poured bullets.

[sergeant69]

I ladle poured for years. Then I bought me a RCBS furnace. I'll never go back to the ladle even if it means I have to quit casting.

I disagree with the ladle making more uniform bullets. I believe they are even. If you don't put the ladle spout against the sprue plate, that is, if you are pouring a stream from it, then how could it make more uniform weight bullets? A stream of lead is a stream of lead and the mold doesn't know where it's coming from. If anything a 20 pound bottom pour would have more force in the stream. Now for those that put the spout again the sprue plate....that can be done with the bottom pour also.

I'm happy with the quantity and quality of my bottom poured bullets.

this actually makes sense, on the surface, to a born again novice (me). any flaws in his logic? reason i ask is i am trying to decide which method to use, other than "whatever works best for you". i don't wanna have to invest in a good quality ladle if i don't have to, but i will if necessary. THANKS

[Cactus Farmer]

Ladles aren't that pricey. I bottom poured for 40+ years then went to shooting BPCR and I believe that I make better bullets for this type shooting by ladeling. Still bottom pour all my 4 cavities. I'm just trying to get the best boolits I can for a particular firearm. Ladleing is much slower and since I know this,it might be that I'm just making a more concerted effort. Try both and you too may find one is better for you in a particular situation.

[sergeant69]

wheres crane county? i live between corpus and SA.

[mdi]

this actually makes sense, on the surface, to a born again novice (me). any flaws in his logic? reason i ask is i am trying to decide which method to use, other than "whatever works best for you". i don't wanna have to invest in a good quality ladle if i don't have to, but i will if necessary. THANKS

Buy a bottom pour melter. Buy a ladle (usually less than $20)http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000152867790.
Try them both (You can dip from a bottom pour pot). Decide which system is most comfortable for you.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Your ladle may??? cost a bit more then $20.00 if you buy a good one, and the best I have seen or used is the Rowell Bottom Pour ladle.

Look it up on the net. It used to be sold by the Car Mover Company.

It, the Rowell, is way better then the typical side pour or the ones with the side nipple.

Not sure what size I have but it is great.

Now I know those of us who feel the pot and ladle is the winner over the bottom pour will likely not see eye to eye with the bottom pour folk, but if they could be my casting partner for just one casting session, they might at least admit my system is viable.

As I said before, to bad we can't all get together for a day.

Not only would we get lots of boolits cast, but everyone of us would walk away more attuned to the different process.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[shdwlkr]

I have used both methods and am satisfied with both methods. Right now I am laddle pouring because it just suits me right now and when I get bored with this method I will switch back to bottom pour. there is no real advantage or disadvantage to either method, unless you cast over a camp fire then you have no choice but to laddle pour.

[Cap'n Morgan]

With the realistic average, the pace with which we started the second session, being closer to 35 - 40 lbs. of production per hour, you can see that it would require a number of pots, all running at the same time, to produce my desired volumn.

Crusty,

You could use a single BP pot for the actual casting, and a large volume melting pot to feed it from. I bet you would increase your output this way.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Interesting idea Cap'n Morgan.

I guess I would need to see a real volumn caster work with a BP and pick up on their method, as my experience has not been highly productive and watching a friend who is a long time BP caster just keeps plugg'in away with his BP.

I can cast rings around him by myself with a pot and ladle, and with my favored method of partner casting, leave him far, far in the dust.

As I've said, I need to spend some time watching a good BP caster as I see no way one person can begin to keep up with myself and a partner running 5 molds at one time.

Have to just take their word for it I guess, they say they can out cast me volumn wise, so all I can say is GREAT!!

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[mdi]

If I want to stand up while casting, I'll use a ladle. If I want to sit dowm while casting, I'll use the bottom pour. If I get tired standing I'll switch to ladle casting. If I get tired of standing while ladle casting, I'll sit down and bottom pour. I get good boolits both ways.