New guy, Ishapore .308 load question?

[Fly]

What is a good load for my Ishapore .308?This is my first time casting boolit's
& my mold is a Lee .312 mold 185 grain.What type of powder & charge do
you recommend.

Please keep it simple for I,m very green to this & you guy's get to talking stuff
that makes my head spin at times.
Thanks Fly:bigsmyl2:

[HORNET]

What do you have on hand for powders? A couple of good starting points would be 13.0 gr of Red Dot or 16.0 gr of 2400.

[303Guy]

I would consider a slower rifle powder like Varget at about 75% load density. I think it's safe to go as low as 60% but that I would check first. I used 35.5gr Varget/AR2208 under 220gr cast seated to the base of the neck in my 303 Brit which has the same capacity as the 308. Pressure was mild and accuracy good. Your mileage might vary with a lighter boolit. I would have been getting around 1800fps with my load. You should be able to go as high as 2000fps with the slower twist of the Ishapore. The idea behind the slower powder is slower chamber pressure build up and lower peak pressure. Muzzle blast is greater than with H4227 type powders. (Makes for a real sweet shooting load).

So my suggestion would be 30gr Varget with a fibre filler to hold the powder against the primer. Please let others confirm that suggestion before commencing. I'm thinking your choice of boolit weight is about right for your gun.

[Fly]

OK I have some Varget on hand.Now your talking load density??See I told you to keep it
simple,for I don't know what in the h*** load density is.Hummmmmmm

So please talk in grains, for I can't relate to something I have never heard of..Also will I need any type of filler to take up space in brass case?

[Fly]

303Guy I got that 30 grs it is.Will cotton work for a filler if I don't put but a small amount in?

[KYCaster]

I'd advise you to avoid fillers till you have a bit more experience. There's quite a bit of controversy about their use and can cause some serious problems if used improperly.

Load density refers to the volume of the case that is filled by your powder charge. General rule of thumb is that rifle powders should fill 75 to 80% of the available case volume. This is by no means chiseled in stone and there are plenty of instances where you can go well outside these limits without issue.

The Red Dot and 2400 loads that Hornet recommended would be an excellent place to start. They give good results in a wide variety of guns so should be the quickest way to good results with yours.

Jerry

[Fly]

I hear you KYC but if I was to use just 13 grains of red dot, would I not have to much volume
in the case for powder seat against primer with out filler.I mean for a jacket bullet I have
been using 43 gr of Varget & we are talking just 13gr of Red Dot????????

See why a new guy get confused????

[BoolitBill]

Fly, 13 grains of Red Dot is a small amount of powder compared to what you are used to using with full power jacketed bullets, but remember that cast boolits get better accuracy with lower velocity loads compared to jacketed bullets. Don't try to obtain the high velocity barn burners and you will be less frustrated with your results. As Hornet recommended the Red Dot or 2400 loads are good starters and you may have to tweak the loads for your gun. I believe that once you get the hang of it you will love the lower powered cast loads that give you wonderful accuracy. And the bonus is you will get more shots per can of powder and less trauma to your shoulder. Also, I have not found any need to place a filler on either Red Dot or 2400 in any of my loads. In any case, keep working at it, read a lot of old posts on this site and keep asking questions as the people on this site will bend over backwards to help you out.

[dualsport]

Red Dot is a much faster burning powder than Varget. That's why you use a lot less of it. Probably not a good idea to use cotton, or any fillers for now while you're learning. Start with the basic simple stuff, it works good. If it's possible just tip your barrel up before firing it and it will get the powder back against the primer for consistency. A lot of people do that.

[KYCaster]

I hear you KYC but if I was to use just 13 grains of red dot, would I not have to much volume
in the case for powder seat against primer with out filler.I mean for a jacket bullet I have
been using 43 gr of Varget & we are talking just 13gr of Red Dot????????

See why a new guy get confused????


I think it was Brian Kieth's character in "The Mountain Men" who said, "I've been powerful confused for a month or two at a time, but I've never been lost."

If you establish a reference to start from then you'll always have that to go back to when the confusion sets in...so you'll never be completely lost. [smilie=1:

The 13 gr. of Red Dot and 16 gr. of 2400 loads are "CLASSICS". They've been used by lots of people in lots of guns. Pretty much any "military cartridge" with an appropriate bullet weight will work with these loads. No fillers needed, no hassles, just load 'em up and shoot.

So.......if it doesn't work that easy.....then what. You can be reasonably certain that the problem isn't your choice of powder and charge weight; those have been proven, time and time again. You've eliminated two variables so you can look elsewhere for the problem...boolit and loob for example.

Your 43 gr. of Varget load may or may not work with your cast boolit, who knows? You've been advised to start well below that charge...with a warning that THE LOAD DENSITY MAY NOT BE APPROPRIATE so you MAY NEED A FILLER. Kinda like a shot in the dark. So if that load doesn't work where do you look?

Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.

Jerry

[303Guy]

OK then, that clears it up. Yeah right!:mrgreen:

Just for interest, no, cotton wool should not be used as it can cause fires. Not usually, but I have managed to burn the cotton. (I've forgotten what I did but if I could remember I could do it again8-)). Aside from that it works great.

If you can load 43gr Varget then my load of 35.5gr would have a load density of 35.5/43x100=82.5% That assumes that 43gr leaves no air space. So, you could go as low as 32gr and be safe with Varget. BUT, I would not go that low without the use of a filler. My choice of filler would be Dacron (polyester fiber insulation). Just a small amount is required to hold the powder down. Reduced charges of slow rifle powder have been implicated in 'detonation' that destroys guns. Varget is not one of those powders to my knowledge and 75% load density is not a reduced charge cited in these rare events.

A warning on the use of very small charges of fast powders like Red Dot and 2400 (I use H4227) is the possibility of double charges. I find that a dowel rod 'dip stick' that neatly fits the case mouth makes a handy powder charge double check before seating the boolit.

[KYCaster]

OK then, that clears it up. Yeah right!:mrgreen:



I considered adding a note to you at the end of that post apologizing for dumping on your recommendation, but decided not to.

I just used your post as an example to present a contrasting view.

You have to admit that much of your work can be considered "advanced technique" and what you consider elementary may be beyond the comprehension of the new guy.

Hope I didn't ruffle your feathers too much. :brokenima

Jerry

[docone31]

Jes wait till you see what it will do with paper patching!!
Works great for me.

[303Guy]

Not at all, KYCaster. In fact, I had a good chuckle! :mrgreen:
I was thinking how confusing it must all seem. But it'll all fall into place and it won't take long either!:drinks:

Plus one on the paper patching. Then the confusion starts all over again! Tee hee!:mrgreen:

[corvette8n]

Find a loading manual and use the 7.62 NATO load data.

For a plinking load( kinda like shooting a .22 rimfire) use
8 to 10 gr of Unique.
lots of fun at the range and easy on the shoulder, and a pound of powder goes a long way.

[Fly]

I retired in and moved to the lake about three years back.When I lived in Okla City it was
just find a good gun shop & they could always help.

Now you guy's are my mentors & I do listen to each of you.I took off to Ft Smith today to
get some 2400.Well Ft Smith is not OKC but I think I did ok.After the three gun shops not having
any 2400, this guy was in the last shop over heard me talking to the guy behind the counter.

He pulled out the Lyman reloading handbook & we started looking.The only reason I did
not go with the red dot was the post above that said sometimes you need to raise the
gun to get the powder to the primer.

I remember my ole daisy red rider bb gun we all had to shake some time to get the bb to
load Smile.That was then & I'm not doing that again.

So anyway this guy was pretty cool & we looked up powders, boolit weights & fps.Thats
a cool book & it had loads lead & I got IMR 3031.With my 185 gr we are looking at 1900
fps with 32 grains.

For me that might be a good starting point.I plan on getting some 2400 next time I go to Tulsa or OKC.But for now I should be OK, don't you think?

You guy's are the best.O yea I bought that book also.Some of you advised me too & you
were right.In two weeks I have bought 3 books & I'm sure it is not my last.My wife still
hates you guys.

It reminds me when my mom did not like the crowd I ran with.What she did not know was
I was the bad one.
Thanks again Fly

[303Guy]

... I got IMR 3031.With my 185 gr we are looking at 1900
fps with 32 grains.I do believe that to be perfect! (It's in the same ballpark as Varget). I believe the benefit of your choice to be the 'gentle' shove the boolit gets at the begining of its travel, thus avoiding boolit distortion in the transition from case neck to bore proper. You'll find the recoil to be an equally gentle 'shove', but don't underestimate the muzzle blast. In fact, I think you'll like it so much you might decide not to change from it. There's no chance of double charging and it's easy to inspect all the powdered cases for charge level. Fun days ahead!:drinks:

[Fly]

Thanks buddy, you have been a real help with all your Enfield back ground.You know going
through all this with Milsurps & all the difference in bore size has kept me more screwed
up more than anything.

Getting the over sized boolit to fit the neck,over sized boolit for different guns.Then the air
space thing with less powder on top of all that.With nothing written in stone can really
confuse a guy.

Shoot I feel smart now!Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[nelsonted1]

What is a good load for my Ishapore .308?This is my first time casting boolit's
& my mold is a Lee .312 mold 185 grain.What type of powder & charge do
you recommend.

Please keep it simple for I,m very green to this & you guy's get to talking stuff
that makes my head spin at times.
Thanks Fly:bigsmyl2:


Something may not be covered, I at least can't see it. Are you using gas checks on your bullets? If not that could open a new can of worms.

Remember, with the exception of a couple of guys here at least as old as the 700 year old guy in the bible, we all remember our first attempts with cast bullets really made clear the depths of our ignorance, that we were in the land of the lost. My struggle was realizing my British enfield that had a nominal bore diameter of .310 or so really finally began to shoot when I tried bullets sized at .317! But would cheerfully shoot into a 1 1/2 50 yard group with jacke...[smilie=p:
you ain't seen frustration until I went through that grinder!

Another thing. You do not need to tip your barrel up when firing Red Dot or 2400- it's just that many do. I shoot a far lower level of Red Dot than "The Load" (13 grains) as it's called. I just am leery of saying how much lower. I use it to practice standing position with my .308 steel plate rifle and don't use a gas check.

When I use Red Dot I keep the case upside-down until I pour the powder in using either Lee dippers or a 9mm case adjusted for capacity using epoxy. I wrap a wire around the case and leave about 4" for a handle. I use dippers because I know I can see the dipper is full before I pour. I pour in the powder and seat the bullet without setting the case down so I don't double charge or miss the charge completely. The powder level is so small a mistake can easily be made!

Eventually you'll learn all kinds of things and you'll be amazed at the education you'll get with cast bullets!

Here is a recent thread on light rifle loads. THere is a sticky which I can't find at the moment on using the 13 grain red dot load.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17536

TED

[303Guy]

The powder level is so small a mistake can easily be made!Just to add more confusion ..... [smilie=1: I have this fear of double loads so I like the idea of developing a load using the fast pistol powders to get pressure somewhat near 'normal' full loads then halving it. That way, a double load will still be safe.:Fire: Now to deal with the problem of triple loads!:veryconfu :mrgreen:

[Multigunner]

I turn each case upside down and shake it before pouring the charge, then start the bullet by finger pressure if I don't go ahead and seat it right then.

All sorts of stuff can end up in an untended charged or uncharged case, especially if the cat gets in the room while I'm not looking, spent primers and the occasional bug etc..