45-70 carbine load

[Tom-ADC]

I have a bunch of 405 gr boolits I'd like to load up, thinking of 55 grs FFg, .062 veggie wad and cast boolit.
Anybody tried this load? Fun to shoot? Accurate?

[Nobade]

Works fine. I use cream 'o' wheat to take up the excess space. Thing is, I can't feel much difference in recoil between that and a full 70 gr. load. It just goes slower. But it worked for the trapdoor carbine, so I guess somebody could tell the difference.

[SharpsShooter]

Yep that will work fine. You may not need filler depending on the seating depth of the bullet. 55gr with the heavier Lyman 457125 has been a load that has shot well in every 45-70 I have owned. It has little recoil and the 405gr boolit you want to use will be very comfortable. Be sure those boolits are lubed with a black power correct lube and have a ball shooting em.

SS

[Tom-ADC]

I have both a Pedersoli Sharps (12lbs) and a H&R Officer carbine (much lighter) I can really tell the difference in recaoil of course although neither bothers me but I could save a little powder and kep recoil for the carbine reasonable just want it to be able to stay on the papaer.

[Lead Fred]

Lube cookie worked better than veggie wad, closed the group.

52grs by weight, is close to 70grs by volume.

Compress and leave no void

[NickSS]

I have used carbine loads for some time now and have had really good luck with them. I use 55 gr of FFG 10 gr by volume of corn meal a .030 vegi wad and a 405 gr lyman bullet sized .459. Shoots very well out to 400 yards which is as far as I have shot it. I have also made lighter loads consisting of a RCBS 45-325-FN over 40 gr of FFFG with CM filler and a Vegi Wad. This makes a delightful plinking and small game load in my handi eifle

[Tom-ADC]

Define lube cookie please, I'm thinking something that can attack the powder if it sits to long?

[Cannoneer]

I have a bunch of 405 gr boolits I'd like to load up, thinking of 55 grs FFg, .062 veggie wad and cast boolit.
Anybody tried this load? Fun to shoot? Accurate?

First off, a lube cookie is a wad made from lubricant sandwhiched between two card wads and seated under the bullet to provide enough lube to the bore to keep the BP fouling soft.

Now. What kind of 405 grain bullets do you have? Are they solid, plain base cast? Hollow based and cast with 40 : 1 Lead /tin? Or are they Hard cast with antimony in the mix?

What kind of rifle are you shooting them out of? Trapdoor, Sharps, Rolling Block? Each one will have a different style of rifling that will dictate on what you are going to use in them.

I shoot a Trapdoor and cast my 405's from pure lead and use a good BP Lube and seat it over a 70 grain weighed charge of Goex 2Fg that I compress in a compression die prior to seating in the cartridge case.

At first glance you seem to have the carbine load, but the original 1885 loadings for the carbine did not use a wad as the bullet has a hollow base like a minnie ball.I have fired my Trapdoor with the 55 grains of 2Fg and the 405 HB and it is a good load for the carbine or rifle and doesn't kick as much as the rifle loading.

[Tom-ADC]

Cannoneer, bullets are plain base 30-1 magma mold, I'd shoot them in both my trapdoor & sharps.

[Grapeshot]

I use the 55 Grain 2Fg or it's equilant in Substitute BP in my .45-60 with a Lee 405 grain plain base bullet cast from 30:1 and it shoots well as long as I use Lee's Liquid Alox after I lube and size to .458 inch. I have to compress the powder, but it seems to shoot cleaner when I precompress the charge prior to seating the bullet.

[Tom-ADC]

So if I understand correctly a over powder card or wad is not required?

[Grapeshot]

So if I understand correctly a over powder card or wad is not required?

So long as you have a clean and dry bullet base you do not need the wad.

Some report that the card wad decreases accuracy, others says it improves.

Try several with and several without and see what happens for your rifle.

[Tom-ADC]

I'm going to put some of these together in the morning for Thursday range trip, I haven't shot my trapdoor in awhile and it being a carbine the 500 gr boolits wake you up, these might be fun to shoot in it.

[Old Goat Keeper]

All the lube cookies I have ever read about do not have any card wads involved but just the "lube cookie". Junior who posts here has a good article on his www.castbullet.com web sit. He was working up loads for a handi rifle with black powder.

Tom

[Tom-ADC]

Well I have a few 10 each 405 gr with 61 grs FFg & 10 300 gr 65 gr FFg kind of curious how they will shoot, I do have my 500 gr 61 gr FFg I want to try out, be intesresting at least to me to see how much POI changes with the different combo's.
I did use a .060 veggie OPW in both loads.

[powderburnerr]

old goat ,
you need something on either side of the cookie of grease or it will blow by the bullet on firing and it will contaminate the powder charge.. I read the article and he is making the sheet of lube but it didnt go into his complete load ,if you fire the round with just a slab of grease between the powder and bullet it will melt into the powder and blow past the bullet, it needs to be contained to do its job......Dean

[Old Goat Keeper]

Well powderburnerr I read tha tarticle many times and the pics show the "cookie" IN the cartrige neck. And Junior is doing exactly what the old original Sharps Company told shooter to do. BTW, that cookie is a hard mix of bees was and hog lard if I remember right. It doesnt' run or melt in normal temps of MS. And junior posted his accuracy tests whick were good. And if the bullet fits the bore correctly nuttin will "blast past the bullet". But then I'm a dumb dutchman and not to smart....

Tom

[powderburnerr]

og,
if you read it I am not argueing , I only shoot them excluseively and find they do as I say..
As to the sharps rifle co, you should read their literature , it will help explain it to you.
so sorry you took offence at my post.I was not dissing your friend Junior, nor trying to force my will on you, mearly stating my findings..............Dean

[willyboy]

I often use the beeswax crisco lube cookie,with just a touch of bore butter or wonderlube.the 405/55 load works very well.I use a buffelo arms .459 veggie fiber wad [kind of like cork] between the bullet and the powder charge.my other favorite load is an aloxed 385 gr. spire point over 60 grains of 2f Goex. One word of caution...don't mix aloxed and lube cookie loads without cleaning in between. A nasty messy fouling will result.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Back to the boolit itself....
Back in the Army Horse days troopers were picked by size and weight. Remember a horse can carry only so much weight and the rider is the main factor in keeping weight to a workable condition. Most troopers were of less than 150 pounds. Now when you sit on a horse and fire a carbine all sorts of things happen. If you are not leaning forward into the shot and weigh less than 150 pounds a 500 grain boolit is quit likely to unsaddle you.. That is a very bad situation in a moving gun fight. Just a bit off balance to one side firing to the opposite side will toss you right over. Add into the factor a horse that is moving or doing the wiggles...
The 400 grainer HELPS reduce this tendicy but the carbine will still flat knock you over if you are of small stature and off balance.
Give it a try... I now weigh a whole wopping 157. Sitting behind crosssticks is no big deal. Standing up and prepared for the shot is nothing. But lean back a bit or shift all your weight to one foot and pull the trigger. A 500 grainer in a carbine will get your attention.

[StrawHat]

Good morning
Back to the boolit itself....
Back in the Army Horse days troopers were picked by size and weight. Remember a horse can carry only so much weight and the rider is the main factor in keeping weight to a workable condition. Most troopers were of less than 150 pounds...

Yep, the troopers were built more like Barney Fife than John Wanye or Ward Bond.

[Don McDowell]

Oh good lord, troopers never fired their carbines while mounted. IF they fired from the mounted position , that's what the colt was for.
When they fired their carbines it was from skirmish lines and that's why they rode 3 abreast. The middle man held/secured the horses while the outside troopers fired.
The army also rightly so determined that the basic use of the carbine did not need an affective range past 600 yds, so there was no need to issue a load to the mounted troops that went beyond that. And up until the late 1880's even the infantry was issued 405 gr bullets but that load was the 70 gr load and was rated to 800 yds. ( Matter of fact I've seen that load shoot quite well at 1/2 mile) The 500 gr load came to the infantry just slightly before the issuance of the Krags.

[Larry Gibson]

I have a bunch of 405 gr boolits I'd like to load up, thinking of 55 grs FFg, .062 veggie wad and cast boolit.
Anybody tried this load? Fun to shoot? Accurate?

Tom

Lots of info on different loads but I'll just mention the carbine load i use in my H&R LBH carbine. It duplicates the original 45-55 load's ballistics and is regulated to the M1878 type sight's range marking. I can also shoot it all day long without cleaning or the fouling hurting accuracy. One time over 100 rounds was fired through my carbine without cleaing. Accuracy (3 moa with original M1878 sights) was the same with the final rounds as with the first. It cleaned up without problems and there was no hard fouling in the bore and no leading. I use a duplex load as developed following Spence Wolf's techniques from his book.

I use two bullets; the Lyman 457124 and Lee's 458-405-HB. Both are generally cast of 30-1 or 20-1 lead - tin alloy. The Lee bullet is a faithful repro of the M1873 bullet. I make the lube with 5 parts beeswax to 4 parts olive oil. I size the bullets .4615 simply because that's the sizer I use for my original TD. The groove depth on the H&R is .458 so it works fine. I have also shot both bullets "as cast" with equal results.

I use R-P or W-W cases. Cases are partial or neck sized. I also use pretty much any standard LR primer i have on hand. My testing with duplex loads is that the brand of primer makes little difference.

I put 5 gr of 4759 over the primer and then 49 gr of Goex Cartridge powder on top. No compression die is needed. I just close the case mouth on the Lee 458-405-HB's front driving band and lightly crimp over the front of the Lyman's 457124 front driving band. This gives mild compression to the powder charge. Velocity is right at 1150 fps out of my LBH carbine.

This makes for very good shooting loads.

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

Oh good lord, troopers never fired their carbines while mounted. IF they fired from the mounted position , that's what the colt was for.
When they fired their carbines it was from skirmish lines and that's why they rode 3 abreast. The middle man held/secured the horses while the outside troopers fired.

"NEVER fired thier carbines when mounted"...
Maybe the manual for Calvary opperations says dismount.... But there are personal testimonies of troopers firing carbines from horseback. Regulations back then are as they were when I was riding M60A1 tanks.. Guidelines. Troopers will do what needs done.
BUT I totally agree... The Lord is Good !
Mike in Peru

[Don McDowell]

To much history from Hollweird me thinks....

[twildman]

According to Spence Wolf, the first Govt. carbine loads had a wad, but the arsenal soon found it to not be necessary, and dispensed with it. Simple is good.
Terry

[45 2.1]

According to Spence Wolf, the first Govt. carbine loads had a wad, but the arsenal soon found it to not be necessary, and dispensed with it. Simple is good.
Terry

I believe the report stated that some of the wads were blowing into the hollow base and sticking there causing wild shots .

[twildman]

I believe the report stated that some of the wads were blowing into the hollow base and sticking there causing wild shots .

You're correct, now that you jog the memory...

[Tom-ADC]

Larry, thanks, I have some 4759 powder coming I'll try that and I have the Lee mold plus 30-1 lead ready to go.

[Catshooter]

Don,

"Never" is an awful big word. I think Mike is correct.

Larry,

Very interesting post, thanks for the data.


Cat

[Don McDowell]

Well its not hard to figure out. Grab youself a McClellan saddle load it and yourself with all the gear strap that trapdoor on and let us know how you fared.

[Rafsob]

I use the wad/cookie to separate the BP from the cream of wheat. My bullets are lubed and don't need anymore lube.

If you are shooting an original carbine like I am, I wouldn't use any duplex load in my gun!!! These loads scare me in original, soft metal guns!!! Plus the originals are high value pieces!!!

[Larry Gibson]

I use the wad/cookie to separate the BP from the cream of wheat. My bullets are lubed and don't need anymore lube.

If you are shooting an original carbine like I am, I wouldn't use any duplex load in my gun!!! These loads scare me in original, soft metal guns!!! Plus the originals are high value pieces!!!

Properly developed duplex loads are quite safe, no need to be "scared". I have pressure tested BP, BP substitute and duplex loads (45-55 & 45-70 using 4759 and GOEX 3F) using 405 gr (Lee 459-405-HB) & 500 gr (Rapine 460500) cast bullets. Proper duplex loads (as I listed in the previous thread) actually develop less peak psi and a slower time pressure curve than the equivelent load of BP does (GOEX 3F & Cartridge). Thus they are actually safer to use in your original TD just as in mine (M1884).

BTW; the carbine duplex load I mention in my above post runs at 20,100 psi(M43) which is quite a bit less than the SAAMI MAP of 28,000 psi for original TDs like yours.

No reason to have any "scare" with properly developed duplex loads as they can easily be the same and as safe as any other load, even a BP load.

Larry Gibson

[StrawHat]

Just prior to the acceptance of the Krag, Springfield was experimenting with smokeless loads for the trapdoor. They also used trapdoor actions to test the barrel steels being considered for the Krag. Properly loaded, smokeless is not a problem.