T/C Encore Rifle, Rimless v Rimmed Cartridges.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have one of these coming in 17Ackerly Hornet and 308 as I mentioned elsewhere and have never used one before.

It seems to me that rimmed cases would be a lot better in this type of rifle. On the face of it, they should be easier to eject for a follow up shot. Using the same theory, belted cases would also be better.

Am I on the right track here?

[rhbrink]

Rimmed great, the way to go I think but the belted are a pain the rear end. The extractor has to ride up over the belt then snaps into the groove. Not too hard to load but to get out is difficult for me and if by chance you would need a quick second shot it's very awkward to grab the shell and pull hard enough to over ride the extractor. I was playing with one a while back that belonged to a friend who was taking it bear hunting and took a shell that he had messed-up and filed the rim off (.375 H-H), now it works just like a rimmed shell. We didn't shoot it that way but is a thought maybe for cast boolit loads with reduced pressure. My .2 cents worth. For what thats worth.

[HEAD0001]

IMO the rimmed cartridges are the best choice for the Encore. IMO the reason is because cartridges like the 30-30 headspace on the rim. So it is easy to get your headspace right. And getting your headspace right on the Encore is the main ingredient to accuracy. And you do not have misfires due to improper sizing with a rimmed case. Take a look at the EABCO rimmed cartridges that are based on the 30-30 case. IMO EABCO has a good thing going with those BRM cartridges. Tom.

[lathesmith]

Four, some good points made here, and you are right, I think a rimmed case is a better choice in these single-shots. Here in the states, we often hunt when it's cold out, which means handling cartridges with gloved hands, and for me anyway rimmed cartridges are easier to handle. Me? I'm so fanatical about this, I have taken barrels for both my 7mm-08 Encore and my T/C 35 Remington, and I have made rimmed cartridge barrels out of both. They shoot great, and I love the handling qualities!

lathesmith

[smoked turkey]

I will comment on the 375 H&H belted case in my ProHunter barrel. I was having so much trouble getting the cases to chamber I thought I had a bad barrel or at least something was wrong. As stated in an earlier post the belt tends to hang up on the case extractor. I called TC to discuss sending the barrel back for repairs. What I learned from TC was that this was a normal occurance with the belted case and can almost always be fixed by giving the case a quarter turn or so as it is chambered. It works. You develop a certain loading style that always gives the case a partial turn and problem solved. I greatly enjoy shooting case 375s in my Encore.

[leadman]

Even with rimmed cartridges in the Contender and Encore these need to headspace off the shoulder just like a rimless case. same with the belted cases.

My ProHunter barrel in 7mm Rem Mag. has a body length so long the cases last for only a couple firings if full length sized . I fireform these with COW first then size to allow .001" to .0015" clearance between the breech face and the cartridge base. I also installed a Bellm .004" shim behind the breach block.

[Adam10mm]

Guys, easy method to extract a belted magnum case from the TC weapons is use the casehead of the next cartridge to hook onto the empty case and rip it out of the chamber. I used this method with my .375 H&H Encore pistol and it worked like a charm. I went from the side and put my thumb opposite of the new round to squeeze the case tight. Try it once.

[Ed K]

Some will go so far as to claim rimmed are even more accurate. I won't go there but what I will say is hold the head of a piece of 35 Remington brass in one hand and hold one of 30-40 Krag in the other and make up your own mind. I use exclusively rimmed cartridges in my Contender/Encore or like Lathesmith have chambers adapted to take rimmed brass.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee153/mvesk/krag.png

[Four Fingers of Death]

What rimmed cartridge would clean up a 308 chamber? A 300Win Mag with the belt trimmed off in the lathe?

I have buckets of 308 brass, I'll have a good play before I start cutting metal.

[rhbrink]

I have thought this over a lot as I have a Encore right now I have a .223 and a 25-06 both shoot just fine after serious load work, there are several options for making a rimmed version of the .308 one is to have a gunsmith turn a cutout in the barrel for a rim then buy .307 Winchester brass. I think that you could still use regular .308 brass as long as you don't modify the extractor. Buy and use .307 for hunting work, I know that it is hard to come by and probably expensive, you might be able to form it from .444 brass. Another that I have looked at is the 7.62 X 54 Russin looks to me like it would clean up a .308 chamber but again not that readily available or cheap. Actually the .308 isn't that hard to get out you just have to push it all the way in and same comming out you have get ahold of the case which the extractor does'nt push very far out and then pull out to past the shoulder. The worst offender to me is by far the belted case. Long live the rimmed case! I hope!

[Adam10mm]

What rimmed cartridge would clean up a 308 chamber? A 300Win Mag with the belt trimmed off in the lathe?

I have buckets of 308 brass, I'll have a good play before I start cutting metal.
The .307 Winchester of course. :oops:

[frankenfab]

I will comment on the 375 H&H belted case in my ProHunter barrel. I was having so much trouble getting the cases to chamber I thought I had a bad barrel or at least something was wrong. As stated in an earlier post the belt tends to hang up on the case extractor. I called TC to discuss sending the barrel back for repairs. What I learned from TC was that this was a normal occurance with the belted case and can almost always be fixed by giving the case a quarter turn or so as it is chambered. It works. You develop a certain loading style that always gives the case a partial turn and problem solved. I greatly enjoy shooting case 375s in my Encore.

Yup, you beat me to it! Works great. I found out by accident.

[looseprojectile]

I have only one barrel for my old Contender carbine and I don't think I can make it malfunction on purpose. I have never had a cartridge fail to chamber and extract as expected. It is a .223 and I have shot dozens of factory and handloads in it of differing lengths and bullets of as much as 68 grains. It does have a fairly long throat and some of the shells I load for it won't fit in AR magazines.
It seems that TC has a handle on making the extractors work in these guns where some manufacturers of single shots don't.
In stead of belted cartridges I would go for one of the older rimmed cases as they are less expensive and more available and plenty of whomp.
Of course I understand you probably want a long range shooter for the wide open country you live in. Seems like long barreled rifle country. You did say rifle in your first post.
.308/7.62X51 is hard to beat. I predict you will love the .308 and will have no worries.

Life was good

[lathesmith]

Yes, I took a regular ol' 7mm-08 barrel and a 307 Winchester cartridge, and turned a nice rim recess in the barrel for this. The great thing is, you can still use 7mm-08 brass if you want to, it makes a dual-purpose setup. 307 and 308 would work the same way, no need to waste all that good 308 brass!
lathesmith

[sav300]

Mick,have some 356 win brass lying around here some where. Can be necked down to 308.Yours for a phone call and postage.
Lionel

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mick,have some 356 win brass lying around here some where. Can be necked down to 308.Yours for a phone call and postage.
Lionel

I'll have to drop in when I'm passing through, that way I can cadge another jar of chilli jam. :D

[HEAD0001]

Even with rimmed cartridges in the Contender and Encore these need to headspace off the shoulder just like a rimless case. same with the belted cases.



Why?? I do not agree with that. I headsapce mine on the rim but I like to keep the shoulder back about .002-.003. I just slightly bump back the shoulder. But the cartridge still headspaces off the rim, not the shoulder. Please explain your logic??

Just my opinion but I do not think it is anything like the rimless case. Please correct me?? IMO headspacing on the shoulder is where most people run into trouble on the Encore and Contender?? When they have mis-fires or accuracy problems. The majority of the problems I have seen people have has been remedied by properly adjusting their sizing die. And to date I have never seen anyone having mis-fires with rimmed cartridges. And I attribute that to how the rimmed cartridge head spaces?? Tom.

[rhbrink]

I had a friend that bought a 30-30 Contender brand new scoped it up had a bunch of factory ammo to shoot up to reload for and some of the factory stuff would not fire boy was he unhappy! He showed me the ammo and you could see where the firing pin just barely marked the primer. Don't know if it was a sloppy chamber or undersized brass but the stuff that did fire was reloaded and worked well ever since. We took the ammo that wouldn't fire and lightly crimped the shoulder with a pair of pliers to give it a slight interference fit and they then fired and worked ok after once fire formed.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Why?? I do not agree with that. I headsapce mine on the rim but I like to keep the shoulder back about .002-.003. I just slightly bump back the shoulder. But the cartridge still headspaces off the rim, not the shoulder. Please explain your logic??

Just my opinion but I do not think it is anything like the rimless case. Please correct me?? IMO headspacing on the shoulder is where most people run into trouble on the Encore and Contender?? When they have mis-fires or accuracy problems. The majority of the problems I have seen people have has been remedied by properly adjusting their sizing die. And to date I have never seen anyone having mis-fires with rimmed cartridges. And I attribute that to how the rimmed cartridge head spaces?? Tom.

My experience (and that of most everyone else I know who used rimmed cases), is that if you headspace off the shoulder and not the rim, you generall get better accuracy and virtually always longer case life. By knocking the shoulder back everytime, it will expand to fit the chamber everytime and overwork the brass.

[HEAD0001]

Let me understand what you are saying. Because I am not following at all. You are saying you want the case to headspace in two spots?? Because it is impossible to stop a 30-30 case from headspacing off the rim unless you allow your case to expand to the point that the shoulder pushes it out of the chamber??

I definitely want to bump my shoulder back a bit. Especially in an Encore??

I guess you are saying that you neck size only for your 30-30. I can understand that. But your shoulder has already bumped itself back(during firing) about .001-.002 in the natural progression of firing.

You can get away with neck sizing only with a rimmed case in an Encore. But IMO even though you are only neck sizing-your case is still headspacing on the rim. Unless you turn the rim off the brass.

Now you can NS only with rimmed brass in an Encore, but it is not a good idea to neck size only for unrimmed cartridges in the Encore. If you neck size only for the Encore on an unrimmed cartridge then you can easily have misfires. The firing pin will actually push the cartridge into the chamber. But the headspacing on a rimmed cartridge stops the firing pin from pushing the cartridge into the chamber before the cartridge goes off. I am not worried about working my brass a little bit, but then I anneal my brass.

Encores are a different breed of guns. And sizing is completely different for an Encore over a bolt action. Just an opinion. Tom.

[bearcove]

[QUOTE=Four Fingers of Death;877168]What rimmed cartridge would clean up a 308 chamber? A 300Win Mag with the belt trimmed off in the lathe?

444 marlin brass will work. A 308 bellm is a 308 win with different length and rim. Just cut a rim counterbore an load as a 308

[Four Fingers of Death]

Let me understand what you are saying. Because I am not following at all. You are saying you want the case to headspace in two spots?? Because it is impossible to stop a 30-30 case from headspacing off the rim unless you allow your case to expand to the point that the shoulder pushes it out of the chamber??

I definitely want to bump my shoulder back a bit. Especially in an Encore??

I guess you are saying that you neck size only for your 30-30. I can understand that. But your shoulder has already bumped itself back(during firing) about .001-.002 in the natural progression of firing.

You can get away with neck sizing only with a rimmed case in an Encore. But IMO even though you are only neck sizing-your case is still headspacing on the rim. Unless you turn the rim off the brass.

Now you can NS only with rimmed brass in an Encore, but it is not a good idea to neck size only for unrimmed cartridges in the Encore. If you neck size only for the Encore on an unrimmed cartridge then you can easily have misfires. The firing pin will actually push the cartridge into the chamber. But the headspacing on a rimmed cartridge stops the firing pin from pushing the cartridge into the chamber before the cartridge goes off. I am not worried about working my brass a little bit, but then I anneal my brass.

Encores are a different breed of guns. And sizing is completely different for an Encore over a bolt action. Just an opinion. Tom.


I should have qualified my statement, but all of my experience with rimmed cases has been with bolt guns and levers.

[bearcove]

You don't want to neck size for contenders and encores. The action flexes and the brass stretches. If you don't push back the shoulder the action will not close fully. This a big cause of misfires. And accuracy problems.

Yeah it is doable sometimes, but not correct.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnn. I think it is throw out what I have learnt and start again with this sucker.

[Duckhunter]

First, both the 307 and 444 can be formed to 308 Rimmed. In fact, the 307 is a 308
Rimmed cartridge. I have several wildcats based on the 444 and the 308 Bellm is a 308 Rimmed with a long neck.

Second, I have several Encore and Contender barrels that use rimmed cartridges. If all the barrels matched the receivers perfectly this headspace conversation would disappear but they don't. We have to compensate for the slight difference in the hole alignment between barrels and frames. I have one Encore barrel that has a .0015 barrel to frame gap. I have another barrel that has a .006 barrel to frame gap on the same frame. This barrel is also deep chambered so that the case head is .0015 below the end of the barrel. I misfires pretty regularly if I don't compensate for this. I size my brass so that it sticks out of the barrel .006" and the primer is held within .0015' of the breach face. The case headspaces on the shoulder, there is no movement of the case when the primer is struck and the cartridge fires. Some would say that this is too much trouble but I say that it is part of reloading and shooting really accurate rifles and I enjoy both.

[rhbrink]

10-4 on "I think it is throw out what I have learnt and start again with this sucker". What I have found is if you resize too much you get missfires, worst case deal a case seperation (been there and done that) if you don't size enough you get vertical stringing. This type of gun is prone to all of these kind of problems anyway just part of the experience, maybe a little more touchy than most probably because they are chambered for almost all of the high pressure rounds. But they can be made to shoot very well just be patient, learn as you go it'll defently be worth your time. GOOD LUCK!

[Four Fingers of Death]

When I mentioned headspacing on the shoulder I meant having a very slight crush fit on chambering so that I am not overworking the case too much. I generally buy a set of Lee Deluxe Dies and also a set of RGB dies. I remove the neck sizing part of the FLS die so that it acts as a body die when needed (I run the loaded rounds through the action and if they drag, I put them aside and put them through my el cheapo body die). Will this method work in the encore?

I like the look of the 308BELLM 2 (it is a shame that I have enough 308Win brass to last three lifetimes :D ).

[rhbrink]

In my limited experience, I am working my brass more than I like for the Encore. I usually just neck size for all my bolt action stuff and get very good case life. I like to keep the sizing to a bare minimum using bushing type dies. The Encore is probably more like a lever action in that it is a springy action but loaded with high intensity rounds just compounds the problem. I haven't ventured into the cast boolit stuff yet with the Encore but would expect that milder loads would be a bit more forgiving. Hope you can make some sense out of this. You'll probably have to modify your methods to suit the Encore, it is a different breed of cat. Just start mild and go slow and easy watch carefully to me that is that is what makes all of this stuff interesting, if it was simple everybody would be doing it. Enjoy the ride!

[HEAD0001]

It sounds like you guys are coming back around to what I saying earlier. And that is why I stated that I really liked the cartridges that head space off the rim. You can avoid all the sizing problems and misfires in the Encore if you cartridge headspaces on the rim. If your gap is too large for the firing pin to strike a cartridge that headspaces on the rim then send it back to TC. Most Encores are right arond .002 on the gap between the face of the action and the closed barrel. So if you just measure your chamber and bump your shoulder back .002-.003 and headspace off the rim then you will never have a problem. Tom.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I gotta get some trigger time in on this baby and work things out. I just found an ammo tin full of Remington factory load Bronze Points and a couple hundred 150Gn Winchester 308s loaded to factory Winchester specs. The factory Remingtons will be useful for measuring stretch, etc.