303 Brittish case separation

[DMCCALL71]

Hello,

I have a friend who recently purchased a rifle in 303 Brittish. I'm not quite sure which rifle it is.

His problem is that when he extracts the fired case, several of them have separated. The rear of the case will extract, while the front of the case remains in the chamber.

He is using factory loads so far, and I have told him to discontinue shooting the rifle until we can figure out how to remedy the problem.

I told him that I would research the problem with some people who have more experience and are smarter than me in matters like this (YOU GUYS!!)

Any help would be appreciated, and thanks in advance.

Dave.

[Hardcast416taylor]

That rifle has a bad headspace problem. If cases are seperating on first firings with factory ammo it needs looking at NOW! I would almost bet you a coffee that it is a #4 Mk1 Lee Enfield. A replacement bolt head can be had to reduce the headspace, you probably have a "0" marked head on your bolt that gives the greatest amount of headspace.Robert

[Pepe Ray]

You MAY be correct, probably are, but.----
Head space is not the most common source of case separation problems. The massively over sized chambers cause much more stretching than a few thousands too much HS. Over sized chambers and excess head space are NOT the same.
Pepe Ray

[Multigunner]

Hello,

I have a friend who recently purchased a rifle in 303 Brittish. I'm not quite sure which rifle it is.

His problem is that when he extracts the fired case, several of them have separated. The rear of the case will extract, while the front of the case remains in the chamber.

He is using factory loads so far, and I have told him to discontinue shooting the rifle until we can figure out how to remedy the problem.

I told him that I would research the problem with some people who have more experience and are smarter than me in matters like this (YOU GUYS!!)

Any help would be appreciated, and thanks in advance.

Dave.

If factory loads are seperating on first firing as Hardcast said it is a serious problem that should be rectified before firing the rifle again.
Its fairly common for a bog standard enfield of any model to stretch cases enough that they seperate on secong or third firing of reloads, but not first firings of any reputable brand of sporting or milspec ammo.

The No.4 gives a choice of #0,#1,#2,#3, sized boltheads, unfortunately the #3 has become hard to find in recent years.

The SMLE Boltheads are not all the same length either, but these bear no marking to denote size.
Armorers had acess to longer than normal boltheads marked with an S, but I haven't seen any of these offered.
For awhile Hoozier Gunworks advertised SMLE boltheads graded by their measurement, with quite a range of sizes, but soon these started showing on their site as not available, so they sold out fast.
A unissued replacment Bolt Body can be bought at a very reasonable price from Springfield Sporters. I fitted one of these to my 1915 Enfield, not to correct headspace but rather due to badly worn threads that the bolthead screws into, it had a SMLE MkI bolthead which may have worn the threads unevenly due to a variance in thread size or pitch. Fitting the new body did reduce headgap by about .002, so cases come out better on first firing, no sign of a stretch mark or annular ring inside.

I once had a couple of boxes of Winchester .303 that produced short lenghtwise splits in every Enfield we tried them in, those were simply badly drawn cases, same make cartridges bought later gave no problems, but I don't use Winchester cases any more.

While some Milsurp and modern manufacture Milspec .303 has thicker rims than sporting ammo, and may not cause first shot seperation, the rifles splitting of sporting ammo is a sign it should be fixed sooner rather than later.

Since the chamber has a taper, the looser the headgap the more clearance bettwen case and chamber wall. So even if the chamber is within specs, excessive headspace causes the same problems as an oversized chamber on top of the headspace problem itself . If the clearance is allowed to increase leakage of gas from a seperated case can cause serious damage, and might blow out or shatter the bolthead. If a chamber is cordworn there can be dished out spots near the base of the chamber greatly increasing possibility of a blow out.

Besides bolt bodies and boltheads complete bolts are available in used but servicable condition from Springfield Sporters and other dealers.
A used bolt must also be handfitted to an action, with less leeway for error.
The mating surfaces of lugs and locking recesses must bear equally.

Their are a few gun dealers who keep private stashes of hard to find boltheads and such, they don't advert these on their sites prefering to save these for special projects, and to fix up rifles for friends or those willing to enquire and knowledgeable about the work necessary to do the job right.

There are several online sources of free downloads of Armorers manuals.

If these links still work maybe they can be of help.
http://www.euroarms.net/EFD/manuali/No4Mk1Inst.pdf

http://www.euroarms.net/EFD/manuali/No4Mk1Arm.pdf

Well thats all I can tell you without examining the rifle and fired cases.
If you have calipers measure the diameter of fired cases at a set distance above the base and compare to the diameter at that point of unfired cases and to chamber drawings.

PS
While there are several methods of fireforming cases for use in a rifle with excessive headspace, this is not a fix, and can result in the rifle being passed on to someone who believes it to be safe with any factory ammo and an accident that can be headed off now by properly done repairs.

[longbow]

+1 for excess headspace.

The Lee Enfields like many milsurps (or at least old bolt milsurps) have large chambers for sure but one firing should not result in case separations ~ wouldn't do in battle to leave most of the cartridge in the chamber.

The bolt should clamp the rim or at least within a few thou. With the oversize chambers the shoulder will blow forward but should not result in case separations, just short case life if you full length resize.

Once your friend gets his gun checked and corrected tell him to neck size only and his brass will last much longer than if full length sized.

Longbow

[Molly]

One other thing to try out: Just wind enough tape around the base of the shell that it barely chambers. This will center the case in the chamber, and equalize case expansion when it fires. Then you can size and reload it normally, so long as you don't full length size.

This is an old trick from the 1950's and earlier. It was used to 'adapt' 30-06 cases for chambers with large base diameter rounds, such as 7.7 Jap. Without it, you tended to get a lot of split cases. Using tape, split cases were almost non-existant.

This is still a very useful expedient when dealing with oversize chambers, such as is typical with the Brit. 303. By equalizing the expansion of the case, you not only minimize the chance of a split case, you also maximize your case life for reloads. Just don't FL size it to the point that you lose the centering.

However, it is still just an expedient at best. It enables you to be safer (not safe, but safer) with your reloads.

One other thought: A LOT of milsurp rifles actaully headspace on the extractor, not on the rim or the shoulder / chamber as called for in official specifications. While there is no substitute for getting the "real" headspace set up correctly, it may be that a shorter extractor will also give you a livable condition. Check to see how much 'slop' you have between the bolt head and a case. If the case is held tightly, forget this suggestion. If the round falls off the bolt, consider a new extractor. At worst, you could weld up the existing extractor and recut it.

[sucngas]

This is actually quite a common occurance with the enfields. Check the headspace, but I will almost bet it is just fine. Enfields are blessed with very generous chambers. The theory was they would fire no matter how dirty, and the military wasn't exactly concerned about reloading the brass anyways. Very few reloaders full length size for their enfields. I have to keep my brass seperated for each of my rifles, as it is not interchangeable once neck sized. A lot of the commercial stuff has very thin and/or brittle brass. S&B is brittle and tends to not last but for a few handloads. Winchester tends to be thinner than most. Remington is kind of thin as well. Most enfield reloaders swear by the prvi brass, or even better, hxp brass. Regardless, it should not be splitting like that in commercial ammo, however if it has been full length sized and reloaded a few times, it can happen.

[nicholst55]

Brian Dick, at BDL, Ltd, at least used to have some new, unissued #3 bolt heads for the No. 4 Lee Enfield. He does not advertise them on his website.

Bolt heads were individually fitted to the rifle, so it's entirely possible to find a #1 bolt head that is longer than a #2 bolt head, etc. So before you buy a used bolt head, I would measure it to insure that it is of an appropriate length for your needs.

All of this is assuming that your friend has a No. 4 Lee Enfield, of course.

[Just1Mor]

I have a enfield #4 Mk1 and i had similar issues with that rifle. The head space was off for some reason and conveniently enough i reload, so i just backed the seizer die out about 10thousands of an inch until i could not chamber an unloaded case and slowly worked in the die. i got it to where it would just close and then a tad bit more and i have had no further issues. Might save you a few bucks.

[beemer]

I bought a set of headspace gauges for the 303, I ruined enough brass to pay for them and saved enough on brass to pay for them again. The P-14 I had would swallow a field gauge, the best I remember it was 84 thousands of an in. Brass shims were stacked on a gauge to get an idea of what I was dealing with. The brass would still not seperate on the first fireing but the second culled them out fast.

Setting the headspace on a #4 might not be as simple as screwing in another bolt head. The guide on the bolt head should not turn past the guide on the bolt by more than 3/16". This keeps the load on the bolt body and not on the threads.

Dave

[Dutchman]

I didn't see anyone mention the threads in the bolt itself where the bolt head screws into the bolt body. I've seen No.4 Mk1 with a bolt that had worn out or damaged threads to where the bolt head was just a sloppy fit. If you fire such a rifle it may mimic the symptoms of excessive headspace when in fact that's not the problem. And if you continue to shoot it after adjusting your loading die you've done nothing to solve the problem and may eventually have a serious incident if the case head lets go and blows gas back through the action.

The most prudent and wise thing to do with such a rifle is have it inspected by a competent Lee-Enfield-aware gunsmith. Trying to diagnose and solve such a problem on a forum is not a viable solution when safety is at stake and the shooter has no idea of the danger involved. Stop shooting this rifle until it can be examined by a competent gunsmith.

See beamer's note above concerning swapping bolt heads trying to "fix" this type of problem.

Dutch

[Dutchman]

One other thought: A LOT of milsurp rifles actaully headspace on the extractor, not on the rim or the shoulder / chamber as called for in official specifications.

I'd like to see a list of military rifles that headspace on the extractor.

How about telling us about ONE military rifle that headspaces on the extractor?

This is a very confusing statement you've made. Please clarify.


Dutch

[Molly]

I'd like to see a list of military rifles that headspace on the extractor.
How about telling us about ONE military rifle that headspaces on the extractor?
This is a very confusing statement you've made. Please clarify.
Dutch

Sorry for any confusion. I didn't mean to say that there were any military (or civilian) rifles that were DESIGNED to headspace on the extractor. But I have seen Mausers that ejected fired cases with a visibly longer body and shorter neck than the unfired case exhibited. I'm thinking in particular of a 98 Mauser in 8x57 that I once came across. The bolt was a mis-match, and the headspace (measured with a no-go gauge) was WAY oversize. Still worked though ...

I'm also thinking of a couple of M98 rifles that were 'rechambered' with a brace and bit by their moronic owners to get more powder capacity for reloading. Believe it or not, the extractors on both of them held the unexpanded case closely enough that cases still fired and expanded just fine, though the ejected cases were a wonder to behold.

It's nothing I'd care to recommend as a safe or standard practice, but I know from personal observation that it CAN happen. And I suspect it happens more often than I really want to know about.

[Dutchman]

Ok, I see what you meant.

danke
Dutch