Lithgow No.1MkIII* with heavy barrel

[Ray1946]

A few days ago I was on the Lee-Enfield site and found some unique info about the Lithgow No.1MkIII*'s. Evidently some of them were fitted with a "heavy" barrel. I saw a picture of one of the sniper rifles being restored that had a heavy barrel. Were these about the same in profile as the No.4MkI or does anyone know? Thanks and have a good one,...............Ray

[smlekid]

I've never compared them next to a no4 barrel but from memory they weigh about 1ib more than a light servive barrel if I get a chance I'll take some photos of a H barrel next to a No4
these days here in Australia it seems easier to find good condition Heavys than lights just recently a dealer has been selling new Heavys not sure how many he had
The heavy barrels were made at Lithgow for bigbore target shooting for many years after the war they were basically a shortened Long tom barrel the army first used these in the 30's they were fitted to service rifles and designated as a No1 Mk111 H (marksmen rifle for target shooting in the military) I beleive a lot of these rifles were used for sniping duties with there central sights
late in ww2 Lithgow converted rifles into sniper rifles by fitting a heavy barrel and a pattern '18 scope (No1 Mk111 HT)
the heavy barreled rifle seem to shoot quite well I have a couple that shoot veryw well I am just starting to play with one of mine with the NOE 316299 boolit and it is showing promise
there was also special forends for the H barreled rifles (just the barrel channel opened up) these were stamped with a H on the forend towards the muzzle the butt was also stamped with a H on the top of the wrist

[JeffinNZ]

SMLEKID: Can't believe you bought a NOE mould and didn't support CBE - .303 mould king.

[Multigunner]

After the SMLE rifle was developed many older long LE rifles were cut down to SMLE length for use as trainers, and target rifles. The Civilian Target rifles often had no upper band and the forend cut back several inches shorter so they could not be fitted with a bayonet. A sort of early version of the anti-Assault rifle ban on bayonet lugs.
Some other modified LE rifles were cut to carbine length for use by constabularies.

The shortened LE rifles usually proved much simpler and easier to bed and maintained their accuracy better than the SMLE with its rather complicated bands and spring loaded plungers and nosecap. The thicker barrel also helped.

Later on they developed the Heavy Barrel for the SMLE. Some may have been cut down LE barrels but they soon began to manufacture a purpose built heavy barrel.

From various sources I've heard that the Heavy Barrel fitted to the SMLE action did have its own quirks, and benefitted less from the compensation factor of the SMLE barrel which allows slower bullets to exit the muzzle on the upswing of barrel vibration and group better in the vertical at longer ranges.
The Heavy Barrel SMLE could also throw shots higher if the chamber was wet or oily, than the standard SMLE, though the No.4 and P-14 with fairly heavy barrels threw shots far less than the SMLE.

From the little I've read on these it would seem that while under range conditions or cared for better than the infantry rifle and using top quality ammo, the HT rifles were far more accurate than the SMLE, but accuracy could be affected more if ammo had much deviation in velocity or was wet or oily.
On the range cleaning the chamber with mineral spirits was suggested before shooting, this eliminating a potential problem before it become a real one.
Of course in the field such a through cleaning before shooting would not always be possible, though a sniper usually had the time and supplies to take care of his rifle far better than the infantryman.

The bedding of the HT would be a bit different from that of the other rifles, I have a copy of the instructions but haven't had reason to study it yet.
I don't think the HT uses the spring loaded band and plunger of the standard SMLE.

[herbert buckland]

The H rifles are not fited with ether a midle spring band or a front spring plunger,most of the military H &HT rifles also use the early pre 1917 recivers that were built to closer tolerences,this als contributed to acuracy

[Ray1946]

Thanks so much for all the responces! I guess I better get the lead out and get to work on my rifle. I was looking closely at the stock last night and it appears to have been fairly well coated with cosmoline. The wood overall seems to be very light in weight and have a very nice color to it. Is this what is known as coachwood? Is this a fairly hard wood or is it soft? The reciever on mine has the F.T.R. on it and the bolt head has an "M" on the side of it. I think I can make this old beauty shoot, but it might take a lot of work......................Ray

[smlekid]

SMLEKID: Can't believe you bought a NOE mould and didn't support CBE - .303 mould king.

Don't worry mate I've got a few of his too!!!!!

[herbert buckland]

Thanks so much for all the responces! I guess I better get the lead out and get to work on my rifle. I was looking closely at the stock last night and it appears to have been fairly well coated with cosmoline. The wood overall seems to be very light in weight and have a very nice color to it. Is this what is known as coachwood? Is this a fairly hard wood or is it soft? The reciever on mine has the F.T.R. on it and the bolt head has an "M" on the side of it. I think I can make this old beauty shoot, but it might take a lot of work......................RayThere are a couple of comone Australian woods yoused by Lithhow,Queensland Maple was used the mast from 1917 till 1940 it is usualy readish in colouer though this can vary and it is very light and damages easly,Coachwood which is heaver and is yelow in colour although this wood is harder it is also easly split,it is the most often encounted wood on a Lithgow as it was yoused exculisly from1941 till the end of production and as a replacment wood for any repairs,other woods woods were triled but never yoused in any quinty,up to 1916 Italian Walnut was used this was prized as a wood for range rifles as was the early actions and would be yoused if posible,

[Ray1946]

Your discription of Queensland Maple fit what is on my rifle to a "T". I am planning on looking around for a "heavy" No.1MkIII* at the collectors show next month, maybe I can run into one in decent condition. Thanks,................Ray

[smlekid]

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/smlekid/026.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i193/smlekid/025.jpg
from top to bottom we have a
No1 light
No1 Heavy
No4
the Heavy measures much the same as the heavy at the breach but the heavy tapers a lot less than the no4

[Ray1946]

Thanks so much SMLEKID for the great pictures of the barrels. I had an idea that the No.1 heavy and the No.4 were probably similar at the breech from the pictures I had seen. The results at the muzzle are very different. That No.1 heavy looks like a modified BENCH-REST barrel! How heavy is a rifle that has the heavy barrel? Something else I was curious about; are the front sights sweated on or do they just "tap" off once the pin is removed? Thanks so much and have a great day,........................Ray

[PAT303]

I have a Mk11* heavy barrel enfield that shot 2 1-1/4'' groups yesterday with the 225CBE boolit over 35grns of 2209(4350) with Puff Lon filler so they can shoot very well.Saying that many years ago I had a light barrel Mk111 that used to do it if you didn't let it heat up.The "H" barrel is the long tom tube that has been shortened to fit the SMLE,they were made on the very same machines. Pat

[smlekid]

I'd say at a guess with a full magazine a H rifle would weigh around 10Ib the front sight is keyed and pinned (look at the light barrel in the photo it has been fitted to a rifle the H is a brand new barrel) the rear sights were reamed to fit the bigger barrel and are pinned at the front I don 't think they are a shrink fit but would imagine a little heat (little!!) might help to get them off
Pat I have a couple of rifles with H barrels they all shoot very well and much more consistently than the lights the best I have gotten out of mine was a 45/50 at 900m (a big bore rifle with central sight) on current Bigbore targets
talking to older amourers locally who used to build 303 Target rifles it was quite common for a good rifle to shoot 6" groups at 600 yards says a lot about the accuracy potenial of 303 rifles with good service ammo
FWIW MF ammo dated 55 57 was apparently vert good stuff last year at our ANZAC shoot I used my light barreled '44 Lithgow with some MF '57 MK7 and shot a 145 on MRC targets in a 3P

[PAT303]

It's a querk of the LE to shoot better the further out you go. Pat

[Ray1946]

SMLEKID;,..........Thanks for the info on the pinned barrel. A 6" group at 600 yds. is darned good shooting by anybodies standard. Do a lot of people still use the barrel sights on the No.1MkIII* as opposed to reciever sites? I have been thinking along the same lines, possibly widening the front sight and maybe a wider notch in the rear sight. Do you guys have rapid fire over there? We have rapid-sitting and rapid-fire prone, besides the offhand and slow-fire prone. Some time ago after I bought the No.1MkIII*, I bought a rear sight that has adjustable windage. Do these work pretty well?................................Ray

[smlekid]

most times on a No1 setup for bigbore target shooting the rear sight was not fitted to a heavy barrel instead they used an arpeture sight fixed to the rear LHS of the butt socket the most common was the Central there were many others
the No1 Mk111H and HT both have the rear sights fitted and today a lot of rifles used on ranges fitted with heavy barrels have the rear sight fitted (as I stated earlier it is easier to find a good heavy than a light barrel so if you get a rifle rebarreled you end up with a rear sight fitted
in our SSAA Military Rifle Comps we have a couple of different rapid fire events we shoot a rapid A which is standing 100m unsuppported with a 15 second time limit (I can usually get 11 shots off) Rapid B is also shot at 100m but is 20 rounds prone in 1 minuteour standard comp called a 3P is shot over 3 distances 15 rounds at 100m in 4 minutes (5 standing 5 sitting 5 prone) 10 shots at 200 in 2 minutes (5 sitting 5 prone) and 5 shots at 300m in 1 minute (5 prone) there are several other events we shoot including some novelty type shoot which are a lot of fun think IDPA with rifles

[Multigunner]

Heres a site with great information on the Parker Hale and BSA apeture sights for various .303 service rifles.
http://www.rifleman.org.uk/PH_Service_sights.htm

I obtained a very good condition PH5A for my ShtLE, but haven't mounted it yet.
These require special longer replacement screws at rear of trigger guard and safety pivot.
Theres a fellow who makes these, the thread pitch is not a commonly found type.

I also aquired a replacement MkIII windage adjustable rear sight from APEX, they don't seem to list these anymore, so they may not have any left.
My 1915 MkIII had the original rear sight but it was broken with the adjustment wheel missing. Many MkIII adjustable sights were disabled by pinning or staking but left with parts inplace, some like that can be reactivated with care.

[smlekid]

forgot to mention the windage rear sigts were 1" per click at 100y (I think!!)

[Ray1946]

I notice about 3" in front of the rear sight is where the barrel band fits into the stock. Underneath the stock is the hole with a washer that a spring and large nut go to hold it in place. Is this a set-up for adjusting the tension on the barrel? I have seen similar screws fitted to heavy barrel rim-fire target rifles. If not, what is it for? In all honesty, I have learned more from talking with you guys in the last 2 weeks on this forum, than I have learned in the last 40 years about shooting the Lee-Enfield rifle! So,...........if I ever run in to any of you, The "first pint" is on ME..............Thanks,...........Ray

[walltube]

for fitting P-H backsights to No.1MkIII, No.4MkI, P14 and M1917 rifles:


http://customscrewsandmore.com/

All newly manufactured screws for P-H5c, including required No.1 MkIII safety lever coil spring.

Yt.
Wt.

[herbert buckland]

I notice about 3" in front of the rear sight is where the barrel band fits into the stock. Underneath the stock is the hole with a washer that a spring and large nut go to hold it in place. Is this a set-up for adjusting the tension on the barrel? I have seen similar screws fitted to heavy barrel rim-fire target rifles. If not, what is it for? In all honesty, I have learned more from talking with you guys in the last 2 weeks on this forum, than I have learned in the last 40 years about shooting the Lee-Enfield rifle! So,...........if I ever run in to any of you, The "first pint" is on ME..............Thanks,...........Raythere was a band that went around the standard barell it was put under very light tension by a spring loaded screw that was tensioned just behind the midle band,on H barelled rifles this was deleated as well as as the front spring loaded barell plunger that sits under the bayonet boss

[Four Fingers of Death]

There seems to be a lot of the No1 Mk111* full wood, heavy barreled rifles for sale now and there has been for the past 10-15 years as the old brigade of WW2 vets die off and their gun cupboards are cleared out. They will probably taper off in the years to come. I saw a few nice ones the other day, but didn't have time to examine them closely. I will have to go back when I have time. He had a few old type range sights as well, very interesting.

[Ray1946]

The next big show is in 2 weeks and I am definately going to be looking for a "HEAVY". I've already started on my light barreled version and will probably finish up in a few months. This is off topic, but do you guys shoot Webley air pistols over there? I have several and really enjoy them.............Ray

[Four Fingers of Death]

The next big show is in 2 weeks and I am definately going to be looking for a "HEAVY". I've already started on my light barreled version and will probably finish up in a few months. This is off topic, but do you guys shoot Webley air pistols over there? I have several and really enjoy them.............Ray

They are around here, I remember someone talking about them and seeing an ad at the local pistol club. We are only allowed to shoot pistols at target clubs, so if the pistol is not a competitive one you don't see it on the range much. Lots of guys have all sorts of old air pistols and shoot them at home (I'm not one of them as we have to attend four matches for each category of pistol we have. I already have pistols in rimfire, centrefire and high calibre which is 38-45. If I bought an air pistol, I'd have to do 16 club shoots instead of 12).

I'll ask my armourer mate about them, he would know).

[tsargood]

Hi all,
I have just picked up my 1918 Lithgow SMLE. It has been fitted with an Aperture sight and the standard rear sight has been removed. It also has a later barrel dated 6/59 and stamped on the top H , which I assume means Heavy barrel. I have removed the aperture sight and I am attempting to fit a standard rear sight back on the barrel. Here is the problem ! The standard sight will not slide up the barrel far enough to be in the correct position. Is the H barrel a thicker diameter? How will i get the sight to fit correctly? Is there 2 different size sights??
Any advice would be much appreciated
Cheers,
Tim

[docone31]

Yeah. The barrel is thicker. Mine had rear aperature sights. I also went with the scope mount it came with. In full wood, it is a good shooter.

[tsargood]

Is it possible to get a sight that will fit the thicker barrel?

Hi all,
I have just picked up my 1918 Lithgow SMLE. It has been fitted with an Aperture sight and the standard rear sight has been removed. It also has a later barrel dated 6/59 and stamped on the top H , which I assume means Heavy barrel. I have removed the aperture sight and I am attempting to fit a standard rear sight back on the barrel. Here is the problem ! The standard sight will not slide up the barrel far enough to be in the correct position. Is the H barrel a thicker diameter? How will i get the sight to fit correctly? Is there 2 different size sights??
Any advice would be much appreciated
Cheers,
Tim

[herbert buckland]

To fit a sight bed to a H barell the bed was reamed out on the Lithgow set up H rifles the sight bed was maeked with a T,when barells were fited by club aromers the sight bed was rarly fited ,somtimes a SHT No1 sight bed was sweted on a much easier option but you need a higher front sight ,the best looking option in my opinion is the one peice replacment top wood and the sight guard removed,but reamed out sight beds are around if you look