Rem rolling block

[Ronb]

I have a New York State militia roller in 50-70. It is in excellent condition with a near perfect bore. I've been shooting it with 777 and wondered if I dare use AA 5744 in it. Accurate lists loads that appear to duplicate the original bp loadings pressure wise. I really don't want to deal with bp cartridge loading. Opinions? Experience?

[Freightman]

I have a M1867 RB that was made in 1883 and is the Norway version almost like a 45/70 (what I load and shoot) and I use 13.5gr of Unique/ and also some loads of WC860/ WC872/ and IMR 5010 with good results. I have never loaded for a 50 so I am not saying to use these loads. Look at Castpics At the bottom of the page lot of good loads there.

[Multigunner]

I'd stick with BP if possible, but since casehead construction of modern cases restricts powder space, you wouldn't get full velocity from BP.
Using the wrong grain size of BP can also cause problems.

I've seen repro balloon head cases for BP loads for the Lee Metford, but found these were not very well made.
Don't know if quality balloon head cases are available for .50-70.


Any one tried cartridge grade pyrodex?
Haven't seen it mentioned lately, don't know if they still make it.

According to this
http://www.shootmagazine.com/articles/firearms/50-70_govt.htm
Of loads they tested Goex FFG Black Powder gave the highest velocity. Powder charge was 65 grains, probably due to reduced capacity of the cases.

PS
In W W Greener's book the gun and its development he warns against using a fine grain BP in rifles or shotguns, apparently some pistol grade or priming BP could damage the larger guns.

[georgewxxx]

Your rolling block is by far stronger than a trapdoor so any smokeless loads you find for any Trapdoor will be just fine. Even 45-70 loads using the same weight slug as you have for a 50-70 will just as good. My New York state hasn't been fired in several years, but I do remember it not liking the same diameter boolits as my Springfield's. I used .515 Lyman sizeing dies for Springfield's, but I think Remington's needed something a tad smaller. Go to Castpics and find articles by members under Trapdoor and you'll find the MP-5744 loads I used plus others you might want to try. Starline brass is easily available now days. The NY sights weren't to my liking so I temporarily cobbled on a Buffington sight for better windage and elevation in a attempt to get the best my gun could do at 100yds. ...Geo

[smokemjoe]

At the last match I was told a RRB let go somewhere around Perioa Ill. Fellow lost a eye and parts went into his shoulder, I got 4 of the black powder actions and make me think more about the loads fro them.

[singleshotman]

The RemingtonRB is a strong action, however it does handle gas nearly as well as the Springfield.If a case breaks, you will get a facefull of gas and brass pieces.Many of these old RB's are old and worn out and have wornout pins. It's the breech and hammer pins that take the force of the firing.Also check for too-long firing pin's, these actions were designed for Berdan primers, which handle long firing pins MUCH better than the Boxer primers.There was a Blowup test run in the 1993 Guns Book(like gun digest). The Springfield proved to be a MUCH better action under adverse loads than the Rolling Block.

[excess650]

I HAD a NYS 50-70 some years back. It shot neat little groups at 50 yards with straight BP loads, but adding a pinch of smokeless to make for a cleaner burn yielded keyholed bullets. I suspect the slow twist was the culprit. In that they are sooooo old, I would stick to BP provided that its in good condition to begin with. You'll need a good BP lube if using BP. Blowing through the bore between shots will help keep the fouling soft for repeat shots. The exceedingly tall hammer on the NYS makes it difficult to wipe between shots, or clean for that matter, unless doing so from the muzzle.

[NickSS]

I shoot 50-70 and have both Bertrim and Starline brass for that caliber. Both will hold a full 70 gr charge of FFG and perhaps a bit more depending upon your compression and lot of powder. I currently do not own a RB in that caliber but I do have three trapdoors and an 1874 Sharps in that caliber. The TDs required bullets of around .515 dia while the Sharps can not fit bullets bigger than .512. I use Bertrim brass for my TDs and Starline for my Sharps. I have fired loads consisting of 25 to 27 gr of AA 5744 with a 450 gr bullet in both actions. In Oct 08 I killed a cow Buffalo in Wyoming with my 1866 Springfield TD with a 450 gr slug and 70 gr of FFG. One shot did the trick at about 125 yards. Buffalo Bill knew what he was doing when he used the same rifle to hunt meat for the RR back in the 1860s.

[StrawHat]

I have a trapdoor and a rolling block in 50-70. I have heard of folks using 5744 but I have not tried it. With good loading technique I can get all 70 grains of black powder in solid head cases. Sometimes a bit more.

As for the rolling block being stronger than a trapdoor?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=61694

You have a good rifle, enjoy it.

[Chicken Thief]

I have a M1867 RB that was made in 1883 and is the Norway version almost like a 45/70 (what I load and shoot) and I use 13.5gr of Unique/ and also some loads of WC860/ WC872/ and IMR 5010 with good results. I have never loaded for a 50 so I am not saying to use these loads. Look at Castpics At the bottom of the page lot of good loads there.

That would be a Dane http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/41.gif

The Swedes and Norwegan had a military pact back then and opted for a "carbon copy" of the 50-70 to suit the barrel of almost 30,000 Vredes frontstuffer guns the Swedes had made in 1864. They kept as much as possible to reduce costs and thus the barrel/bore was a given thing.

The Danes opted for a "45-65" thingy but based on trials the cartridge was "way" conical to ease ejection from a crudded chamber. Originally in 1867 the cartridge was 11.4 x 46.5mm rimfire and changed to 11.4 x 51.5mm in 1897 when the rifles was converted to centerfire and smokeless + jackted.

[2Tite]

Back to your original question......I'd answer YES. AA5744 would probably be a good choice for smokeless powder as would the very similar IMR 4759. It's plenty strong enough for either. You state that it has a near perfect bore, I'd assume that the rest of the rifle is in good condition as well. It sound like a good time is about to be had...................I wouldn't hesitate one minute to shoot smokeless in it.

[Doc Highwall]

I would not hesitate to use AA5744 it is a great powder and pretty much not position sensitive and was made just for this purpose. I us it in my 45-70 and 45-90.

[Dutchman]

I have a New York State militia roller in 50-70. It is in excellent condition with a near perfect bore. I've been shooting it with 777 and wondered if I dare use AA 5744 in it. Accurate lists loads that appear to duplicate the original bp loadings pressure wise. I really don't want to deal with bp cartridge loading. Opinions? Experience?

First thing: The Swedish 12,7x44R is not a "carbon copy" of the .50-70 Gov't. The 12,7mm case is smaller, narrower at the head diameter. They are not interchangeable.

12,7x44R Swedish rolling block
30" barrel sporter

Chronographed with 1867 Remington sporter
using Doudna 450 grain FN bullets .512".
All are excellent loads.
Blackpowder loads uses vegetable wad card
on top of powder (Buffalo Arms).
Cases - reformed .348 Winchester
Standard primer for Unique & XMP5744
Magnum primer for blackpowder

12.5 grs. Unique = 1074 FPS average
very accurate load

24 grs. XMP5744 = 1089 FPS average
26 grs. XMP5744 = 1151 FPS average
27 grs. XMP5744 = 1211 FPS average Do not exceed
70 grs. FFg = 1214 FPS average

350gr FN (Doudna) .512"
29 grs XMP5744 = 1337 fps average Do not exceed
44.44 extreme spread
18.02 std deviation
This will print cloverleafs at 50 yds from my rifle. I was very surprised.

My "do not exceed" is for prudent safety. I didn't feel a need to take the load development any further when I hit blackpowder velocities. There were no pressure indications with case obturation or primer dynamics.

Dutch