New bolt rifle decision

[daschnoz]

I am beginning to save for my next rifle. I have 2 rifles in mind:

1 - Remington 799, 7.62x39
- Sub-sonic load development with 200-220gr cast lead boolits
- Groundhog slayer with 110gr bullets
- Whitetail (maybe) at the right range with the right load
- Cheap plinking

2 - Savage 10 FCP-K, 308WIN
- Reach out and touch something - in the same spot; over and over


When voting, please post the reasons for your choice - they may be things I haven't thought about.

Thanks.

[frankenfab]

I just don't care much for Remington 700's. I have had a couple. I prefer Weatherby Vanguards for guns in that class.

I like the value of a Savage rifle. The ONLY thing I don't like about them is the way the bolt feels kind of clunky when you operate it.

You can do everything you want to do with the 7.62X39, and more, with the .308.

Edited to add: sorry, I mis-read which Remington you were talking about. But I still feel the same.

[GabbyM]

Savage all the way.
308 will be much more flexible and you can still shoot sub sonic loads although they will be a bit noisier as you'll have more powder in them. You can still buy 500 reconditioned 7.62 cases for under $100. Don't overlook a 7mm-08 either.

I don't see the 799 in Remington catalog anymore. Still get a Mauser type rifle from CZ or some other Europeans.

[badgeredd]

+1 on GabbyM's statement. The 308 is MUCH more flexible and can be loaded to full potential or downloaded to mimic the 7.62x39 ballistics.

Edd

[Beekeeper]

For me it is .308 all the way

Case availability
Overall performance
versitility as far as boolits ( much larger range)
And most of all the reach out and touch something as you said.


Jim

[45-70marlin]

da, you might want to look at the new marlin bolt gun XL-7 in 308. I have one in 7MM-08 and it will make one ragged hole at 100 yds. go with the 308 much ammo and lots of bullets out there for it.

[OBXPilgrim]

Odd man out, I guess - I voted 7.62x39 Rem 799, but it had nothing to do with what daschnoz needs - since he didn't say anything about what he was looking for.

I voted for what I would have wanted, since I've got several 30-06's - & they can do anything the 308 can do, but the 308 can't do light weight and handy, which is why I voted the way I did.

All my 30-06's are Garands or full size bolt guns - which never let me down by the way, but are heavy.

I have a nice light H&R Handi Rifle in 7.62x39 with a little 2x7 Nikon scope that is just a nice occasional change. A 311407 (180gr) at 1880 fps with H4895 gives it enough whump to do what I need. A Remmy 799 would fill a spot that should have been filled by a Zastava 7.62x39 mini Mauser that I passed on years ago, which would have gone good with my Zastava Mark X Mauser 30-06 that has killed LOTS of S.C. whitetails - but it would have been a nice light change of pace.

That's my odd man out vote for the Remmy, if you could find one.

[lawboy]

I voted that you go for the 799. It is different and if basically built right can be modified into a very nifty mini-mauser for lobbing boolits. Also, the cartridge is capable of fine accuracy within its range and the package would be very appealing for hunting within 200 yards. I have a thread on my cz527 in 7.62x39 in this forum and there is a photo of my gun with a target. The tidy package these rifles make with a compact scope is just very appealing to me. I am betting you already have a gun to reach out and touch-em over and over but that you don't have a small action carrying rifle for hunting.

[RobS]

2 - Savage 10 FCP-K, 308WIN

Savage is making some really great rifles currently. Out of the box accuracy is MOA or better (usually on the better side). I like their new line with the AccuTrigger and AccuStock. Having a full length aluminum bedded stock will give you a ridgid platform to start with.

Also noted already is the availability of components.....................308, it's everywhere. Choices are very good for shooting the many different cast bullets out there as well. The 308 can be loaded on the light side for easy plinking with either j-bullets or better yet with cast boolits. Loaded on the upper end you also have yourself a firearm with the ability to, as you said it best " Reach out and touch something - in the same spot; over and over"

[Jack Stanley]

Just looking at it from a loaders perspective I'd choose the three oh eight . Other than be able to shoot the stubby Russian ammo you can make the cartridge do anything you wanted the Remington to do . There was a time if Remington had made such a rifle I would have bought one and been very happy doing the things you mention . Right now I have a nice left hand seven hundred chambered for the larger round and it works well doing the things you stated .

I haven't used a Savage one ten but when I was shooting compitition they were begining to be reckoned as good choices . They do shoot very well and the other Savage products (older) have always shot very well ...... now if they would just re-introduce the model two nineteen rifles again :mrgreen:

Jack

[daschnoz]

Thanks everyone for your input.

I did think about the ability of the 308 to do what the x39 can (and more), but I was thinking sub sonic. The x39 would be a much easier case to work with for this application. BUT, I agree that the 308 would be more useful.

Savage 10 FCP-K it is.

[scb]

Before you spend money on a 799 check and see about service. I've needed a couple of parts for a year now and no one has them. Remington won't hardly acknowledge they had anything to do with them and tell you to go to the original importer. I tried getting the part thru them they say they're not available.

Notice date discontinued.
http://www.remington.com/products/archived/centerfire/bolt-action/model-799.aspx

Notice which models are missing.
http://www.remingtoncountrystore.com/PartsStore.aspx?layout=0&number=3&catalogid=1&categoryid=1038

I don't personally care much for Savage but I sure wouldn't buy another 799.

[dk17hmr]

I voted 308. Subsonics are fun and you can load them in a 308 case with Trailboss powder. Than you can always loade up some real loads and shoot steel at 600 yards. Every Savage bolt I have shot is a real good shooter. My 204 is a sub 1/4" gun, my girlfriends 223 is a sub 1/2" so is my dads 223. Both my dad and I have p-dog kills with his Savage 223 bolt at 750 plus yards.

x39 would be fun to play with but reloadable cases arent exactly something you can pick up every time you go to the range. Im also not a huge fan of that style Mauser action, I dont know why I am just not a fan.

[Southern Son]

If both rifles are similar in price, 308Win is would be my choise. .308 Win is a bit more versitile than 7.62x39 (IMHO), and you just can't go wrong with the Savage.

[NickSS]

The 398 is one of the best cartridges around accuracy wise. I have been loading it for over 30 years and find it one of the easiest rounds to make accurate ammo for. Almost everything I tried was good in that caliber. Savage rifles are also excellent buys for a low end rifle. I believe the Remington 699 is not being carried by Remington anymore but it is basically a Mini Mauser and probably a decent rifle. I have a CZ 527 in 7.62X 39 that will shoot sub MOA groups with ease but then all CZs that I own are like that. I believe the 308 is the better choice unless you have too many rifles like I do.

[winelover]

308 = NATO = AVAILABILIY

SAVAGE = MOST BANG FOR THE BUCK

Winelover:coffeecom

[Mk42gunner]

scb,

Interarms and Charles Daly were two of the importers before Remington for the Mini-Mauser, don't know who, if anybody, is importing it now.

I voted for the Savage .308. it will do anything the 7.62X39 will do, except make a light loafing about gun. I have the Charles Daly version of the 799, and a couple of .308's.


Robert

[SCIBUL]

HI !
I said SAVAGE because they are cheap and modulars ! You can swap barrel if you want.

[scb]

scb,

Interarms and Charles Daly were two of the importers before Remington for the Mini-Mauser, don't know who, if anybody, is importing it now
Robert

Thanks Robert. I've tried both of them and they both seemed less than enthused about selling parts for Remington. Neither had the parts I needed or so they said. I spoke with one service manager (don't remember who's) who was more than a little put off that Remington had pushed them out of the Mini Mauser market and now (then) expected them to take care of Remington's problems. He was not at all happy and I can't say I blame him. It has been well over a year since I last tried, maybe I'll give them another shot.

[Artful]

Well, I don't know what you have but if you don't have a 308 or '06 long range gun then I vote get the savage first - 7.62x39 is a good messing around with gun but only if you already have the reach out and touch someone problem solved.

I have a heavy barrel Remington 700 for that but I have several friends with Savage guns and they shoot well and I like the new trigger on it. Only thing Remington 700 has over Savage is the amount after market parts options. But that's countered by how easy it is to change the barrel on a savage so you can get a 308 and say a 22-250 and 358 barrel to go with.

7.62x39 I did choose a bolt gun - I did mine the hard way - but they are fun to shoot and when ammo was like 70.00 per 1k it made more sense to make one up. Mine's off a mauser action - it was fun trying to get the WASR mag to work.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/4374/dsc06117.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/i/dsc06117.jpg/)

Click to enlarge - Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

If I was looking for 7.62x39 factory it would be
http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-carbine/

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bolt_action_7-62x39_rifles.htm

http://hammerbackguns.com/images/CZ%2003050.jpg

[Doc Highwall]

I voted for the 308 Winchester as I have several an I use 20.5 grains of AA5744 for 1752 fps with a SAECO #315`175 grain bullet for sub minute of angle accuracy. I do not think you can shoot a 200-220 grain bullet out of either 7.62x39 or the 308 Win at sub sonic velocities with a factory twist, maybe with a 1-7" or faster twist but not with anything like 1-10" or 1-12".

[9.3X62AL]

Totally tied score for me. Both calibers have their use--7.62 x 39 is every bit as powerful as a 30-30 WCF, and I would also recommend the CZ-527 over the RemGun. The 308 needs no cheerleading by me, and is more flexible than the 7.62 x 39. If you can find one of those CZ-527s to throw to your shoulder, that might make your mind up for you. They are a delight in any caliber you find them in.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Which NEED is of the utmost importance ?
If you are looking to prepare for a battle the 308 would serve you well. If you are in an urban area a good receiver sight is all you need... or set it up with a lowpower (1.5-4.5) variable for quick shots or longer steady shots.
If you are looking for a quiet up close gun then subsonic in 762x 39 is an easy trick in a bolt gun.... But is just as easy with 308. Anything a 762x39 can do the 308 will easily do.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I voted for the 308 because it is so much more useful, especially if you reload and you probaby wouldn't be on this page if you didn't.

We are operating on the assumption that you don't have a heavy rifle already. If you had a 270Win in the wings, I'd say get the 7.62x39 as a plinker small game hunter, cast boolit rifle.

The Marlin in 308 is worth a look as well, all of the advantages of the Savage and probably cheaper. I have a lot of Marlin Leverguns and would like one. There are a pair of nice looking camo stocked ones in 243 and 308 at the local gun shop, very tempting!

In 7.62x39 the CZ would be the choice for me. They have been around for yonks and are as reliable as all get out. The Zastavas seem to wax and wane in availability, but the CZs are always there.

I have a 1977 made 22Hornet BRNO Fox, which are now called CZs. It has been in continual use as a farm gun, has been well looked after and still shoots like a dream. Don't need many spares on a gun that don't break.

CZs were called BRNOs (I Think that is where the factory is) for many years and have been a very popular brand here. I would go as far as to say 50% of the bolt 22s in Australia would be BRNO/CZs. They have been available in Australia for a long time, but only in recent years in the States.

[iron brigade]

308.
i just bought a howa heavy barrel in 308. love it. one ragged hole at 100 yards. i did the barrel breakin per howa. the load i used-win brass, fed gold medal primer, 42.5 grs of H4895 and a sierra 168 mk. 3 shot group measured 1/8" ctc.
rifle has a nc star 6x24 mildot ill. scope on it. not the best out there but it works.
also bought my son a savage 111 in 270 for wyoming and is a very nice rifle too. working on loads for it.

[jwhite]

Another good 7.62x39 to consider is the Ruger Hawkeye compact, I got one of these rifles this fall and love it. I am a big fan of the little Russian round, it is about the perfect round for the woods bumming rifle. I also own a Charles Daly mini-mauser which is nice little rifle as well, quite accurate with cast boolits, but the action is a tad rough. My father in law purchased one of the Remington 799's but the level of finish was so poor he returned it, the chamber appeared to have been cut with a corn cob and the safety required both hands to move. I wonder what caused the drop in quality when Remington began importing these rifles, either way it is too bad, as is it a nice little action. If you plan on using cast boolits most of the time I would pick the Russian round over a .308.

Jerry

[deerslayer]

I would vote the .308 for sure .
I have two savages and love the accuracy of each.

How hard is it to change the barrel on a Savage and can I do it my self and where do you get the barrel from??

[Phillip]

I voted for the .308, you can load it to mimic the 30-30 for the low end and then load it like a heavy 30-06 for the high end. It a very versatile round, more so then the 7.62x39 in my opinion.


I would vote the .308 for sure .
I have two savages and love the accuracy of each.

How hard is it to change the barrel on a Savage and can I do it my self and where do you get the barrel from??

Changing a barrel on a savage is not that hard. Some times you will find the nuts surface rusted to the barrel, then it becomes a pain to take apart.

I am looking at rebarreling my 30-06 to 338-06.
The barrel I am looking at, is a Adams & Bennett, that is being sold by Midway.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=631476

Midway also sells the nuts, wrenches and, go/no-go gages as well.

Another source is these guys, http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/

I do not know how good they are, I found them listed on a Scout Rifle site.

I would definitely read up on how to do a barrel change before you do it. I would also make sure your action will support the change as well.

[frank_1947]

.308 is a great round, I have a Rem 700 Mil Spec 5R SS that shoots sub moa out to 600 yards, at 600 I am .679 moa that is a 4.079 inch group, at 100 to 300 yards consistant .3 moa all are 5 shot groups.

Savage .223 -Model 10FP it shoots sub MOA 100 and 200 yards havent had the chance to shoot 300 and 600 yet.

the Rem 700 has a Leupold Competition 45X Scope
the Savage has a Weaver 36x

my 2 favorite rounds

[Four Fingers of Death]

The 308 is really hard to beat,

I have an Omark and two M17s as single shot target rifles in 308, a No4 Lithgow conversion, a Remington Police pump gun and an Encore in 308, all shoot like a dream. I got a feeling that there is a hunting style bolt gun buried in the safes somewhere as well.

[Lloyd Smale]

Id steer clear of the 799s. The ones ive handled seem to vary alot in quality control. My recomendation would be a model 7 308. Ive got one and it shoots sub moa so often its almost boring and a guy couldnt find a better all around whitetail gun.

[uncle joe]

the 308 is a much better all round caliber, lots of brass available and as most here said you can load it for anything you like.
Ps
like your avatar, I used to work on induction welders that had tubes in them that cost $10000 each and were about a foot and a half tall.

[rtracy2001]

308 + Savage = a potent accurate package that would be hard to beat.

Savage out of the box accuracy is excelent. The ability to swap a barrel in an afternoon and then swap it back later in the evening is the bomb. Buy the savage 10 in 308, and you can also have a 243, 7mm-08 and more. Basically more fun shooting than you may have thought possible.

[Lloyd Smale]

Just got a second model 7. this one a stainless 308 Its as good of a shooter as my blued one. My ruger 762x39 does well too. Not quite as good as the remingtons but its still one of the best shooting rugers ive owned. It just doesnt inspire the confidence when hunting that the 308 does though. especially when the range is out past a 100 yards. to me its a great little gun for 100 yard or a little more whitetail hunting or shoot cast bullets but it weights more then my model 7 that is handier and packs alot more punch. Its more of a novelty gun then a practical one but thats ok as a guy needs a couple unique guns to play with too.

[10 ga]

Had some Rem but gone except for the .22s. Only Savage I have is their smokeless MLII and have 2 of them, YEOW they're hot stuff. Now have 2 CZs. One in .17 rem and another that I rebarreled to .17 Fireball. They shoot great. I use them in my fur hunting and predator control biz. 7.62X39 or 308 I vote CZ. About the best quality available for the same $. Second choice would be a Savage. My $.02 10 ga

[stephen perry]

Most any bolt.

[Gunaria]

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/192906000/192906198/pix779015704.jpg

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/192906000/192906198/pix267613441.jpg

Looks like these 799 are made in Serbia. I would do some more research and see what the diameter of the bore is. It might be that comblock dia of .311 instead of .308

The going rate looks like around $475 for these.

[GT27]

I would check out the Savage Edge before I made any definite decisions. It's new and the reviews are very,very good!

[frank_1947]

I have a Savage 16FHSS in a 243 Win I would sell I recently found a load that I was able to shoot 1/2 inch group at 100 yards I have pictures I have had it for 3 months shot about 100 rounds only, I bought it for a specific competition once I got their I found out I could have used my .308 so I really dont need the gun it has accustock and accutrigger, I forgot about the gun I will see if anyone wants it in this thread I will put it on a swappin page I will take $500 plus shipping to your FFL from my FFL.

Glad you guys commented on this thread I forgot I have it in the safe going to put on swappin now heres some pics

http://s732.photobucket.com/albums/ww321/fjmcm_1947/16FHSS%20%20243%20Win/

[hicard]

I love the balance of the 308 as to recoil and knockdown power but I also like a light handy 7.62x39. I was looking at the Ruger websight the other day and spotted a 7.62x39. You might want to check that out. I have a CZ527 I like a lot but if I were looking again, I would look at that Ruger. Update, I picked the Ruger Hawkeye in 7.62x39 up and just love it. Even more than the CZ527.

[NHlever]

For me, it is less important what a caliber "can" do than what it does in stride. Using the new Hornady manual for jacketed loads, and the new Lyman manual for cast, my .308's have become modest to hot 30-30's, and my 30-06's have become .308's. I love the 30-30 as a versitile caliber, but it is hard to find one these days any lighter, or more handy than many .308's. I think I'm going to get a new Remington Model 7 Synthetic, and I doubt those things weigh 6 pounds empty. I like the Marlin's a lot too, but they need to lose some weight for old guys with problems like me. I did have a CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62 X 39, but although it was accurate, and light, and handy, I just never really bonded to it like I have with some guns that I just enjoy grabbing on my way out the door when headed for the woods, or a walkabout. Actually, when I owned the CZ 527, I usually reached for my Ruger 77/44, and now have a Ruger 77/357 on order for off season use.

[kweidner]

Between the two savage and .308. My preference would be a cz though in a factory gun for reasonable $. Cooper is tops IMHO. Little pricey though. Wish all mine were coopers. Just can't afford that on a teachers salary.

[JeffHolt]

I vote for the Savage because that's what I intend to buy for a bolt gun. Besides, you can always load a lighter 125-130 grainer in a .308 Win case. I just wish Savage offered this rig in a nice laminated wood stock.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I just wish Savage offered this rig in a nice laminated wood stock.

I saw a Boyd's laminated stock on a friend's rifle the other day. Brilliant bit of kit! Shipped to Australia for $140! I have a friend who is a gunsmith and stockmaker. He imports Boyd's stocks now and only makes high dollar stocks. He said he can't be bothered making run of the mill stocks now as he can get the Boyd's for about the same money with no effort apart from his wife sending an email order.

My mate's one is red and wood, I like the look of the blue laminate ones.

[gwozdz]

I would vote for the Savage 308. There is just so much 308 brass around for cheap and it quite versatile.

[o6Patient]

I'm a Remington guy from way back but Savage has come on strong and a 308
certainly trumps the 7.62x39, again depending on what you want it for, but not
knowing that I'd go with the Savage in .308 with this one.