WW 500HS didn't ignite!

[clearwater]

I finally got to try some of this old shotgun powder in a 38 special today, along
with a bunch of other powders. I chrono'd everything to get an idea of consistancy
and to compare them to other powders.

The ww 500HS WOULDN'T IGNITE!
With a 125 grain cast bullet from a handi rifle I got a velocity of 193 FPS!
It had 3 grains of the powder and I was using cci small pistol primers. After firing when I pulled the brass out, the powder just dumped everywhere.

I didn't try anymore loads with 500hs.

Anyone want to explain this?

[BerdanIII]

Are you working from published data or doing your own load development? From what I have read, some of the early Winchester shotgun powders were really cranky and didn't burn well in handgun cartridges. One (295HP, if I remember correctly) was even pulled off the market because it was a bugger to ignite. I'll look for load data.

[sargenv]

Um, 500 HS is similar in burn rate to 540, I have a 1 pound can of it and it even looks like 540/HS6.. 3 gr likely did not have enough powder to build up the pressure needed.

[clearwater]

Working up my own data. From burn charts, it appears to be about where Herco is.
I probably was a bit low on quantity.

[sargenv]

If it were me, I'd use a starting load of 540 and go from there..

[BerdanIII]

Winchester 500-HS Data
Speer #8

"Winchester 500-HS and Hodgdon HS-5 powders are very similar. Both are listed as medium shotshell propellants but make serviceable pistol loads as well."

.38 Special - Speer-DWM case - CCI 550
158-gr Speer LSWC or LRN - 6.0 to 6.5 - 1008 to 1092 fps
[HS-5 - 6.0 to 6.5 - 1007 to 1102 fps]

.45 ACP - Federal case - CCI 350
225-gr LRN - 7.0 to 7.5 - 811 to 880 fps
230-gr FMJ - 7.0 to 7.5 - 799 to 863 fps - CCI 300 primer

It looks like 500-HS is not suited for light loads like Bullseye or Red Dot.
==================================================
HS-5 Data - without corresponding Winchester 500-HS data

NOTE DIFFERENCE IN CHARGE WEIGHTS BETWEEN SPEER #8 AND SPEER #9

.380 ACP - WW case - CCI 500
90-gr JHP - 4.3 to 4.7 - 907 to 1004 fps
[4.5 to 4.7 - 987 to 1022 fps - Speer #9]
95-gr LRN - 4.0 to 4.3 - 935 to 996 fps
100-gr Speer JHP - 4.3 to 4.5 - 924 to 962 - Speer #9

9mm Parabellum - WRA case - CCI 500
90-gr JHP - 6.5 to 7.0 - 1359 to 1459 fps
[5.8 to 6.2 - 1234 to 1317 fps - Speer case - CCI 500 - Speer #9]
100-gr Speer JHP - 5.4 to 5.8 - 1088 to 1157 fps - Speer case - CCI 500 - Speer #9
125-gr Speer SP - 5.0 to 6.0 - 891 to 1092 fps
[5.1 to 5.5 - 1000 to 1097 fps - Speer case - CCI 500 - Speer #9]

.38 Super - WW case - Alcan small pistol
125-gr Speer SP - 6.5 to 7.5 - 1110 to 1261 fps
[5.5 to 6.0 - 999 to 1080 fps - WW case - CCI 550 - Speer #9]

.38 Special - Speer-DWM case - CCI 550
110-gr JHP - 6.5 to 8.5 - 1045 to 1342 fps
[6.0 to 6.4 - 1058 to 1141 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9]
125-gr Speer SP, HP - 5.5 to 5.7 - 946 to 979 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9
140-gr Speer HP - 5.0 to 5.2 - 853 to 957 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9
146-gr Speer HP - 5.2 to 5.4 - 912 to 947 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9

.357 Magnum - Speer case - CCI 550
158-gr Speer LSWC or LRN - 7.5 to 8.5 - 1136 to 1251 fps
110-gr JHP - 9.5 to 11.5 - 1437 to 1612 fps
125-gr Speer SP - 9.0 to 11.0 - 1283 to 1512 fps

.41 Magnum - Remington case - CCI 350
210-gr LSWC - 8.0 to 9.0 - 915 to 1046 fps
[7.0 to 8.0 - 900 fps to 1034 fps - Speer #9]

.44 Special - WW case - CCI 350
215-gr LSWCGC - 6.5 to 8.5 - 740 to 975 fps
[7.0 to 7.9 - 794 to 902 fps - Speer #9]
250-gr LSWC - 6.5 to 7.5 - 756 to 882 fps
200-gr Speer JHP - 7.0 to 7.6 - 830 to 892 fps - Speer #9
240-gr Speer JSP - 6.5 to 7.0 - 807 to 873 fps - Speer #9

.44 Magnum - WW case - CCI 300
180-gr JSP - 14.0 to 15.0 - 1335 to 1438 fps - Speer #9

.45 Auto Rim - Remington solid head case - CCI 350
225-gr Speer JHP - 6.5 to 6.9 - 757 to 812 fps - Speer #9

.45 ACP - Federal case - CCI 350
200-gr Speer SP - 7.7 to 8.1 - 845 to 909 fps
200-gr Speer LSWC - 6.0 to 6.5 - 701 to 790 fps - CCI 300 - Speer #9
225-gr Speer JHP - 6.8 to 7.2 - 798 to 841 fps - CCI 300 - Speer #9

.45 Colt - WW solid head case - CCI 350
250-gr Speer LSWC - 8.6 to 9.1 - 815 to 862 fps - Speer #9
200-gr JHP - 9.2 to 10.2 - 905 to 1004 fps - Speer #9
225-gr Speer JHP - 9.7 to 10.4 - 871 to 934 fps - Speer #9

[clearwater]

Winchester 500-HS Data
Speer #8

"Winchester 500-HS and Hodgdon HS-5 powders are very similar. Both are listed as medium shotshell propellants but make serviceable pistol loads as well."

.38 Special - Speer-DWM case - CCI 550
158-gr Speer LSWC or LRN - 6.0 to 6.5 - 1008 to 1092 fps
[HS-5 - 6.0 to 6.5 - 1007 to 1102 fps]

.45 ACP - Federal case - CCI 350
225-gr LRN - 7.0 to 7.5 - 811 to 880 fps
230-gr FMJ - 7.0 to 7.5 - 799 to 863 fps - CCI 300 primer

It looks like 500-HS is not suited for light loads like Bullseye or Red Dot.
==================================================
HS-5 Data - without corresponding Winchester 500-HS data

NOTE DIFFERENCE IN CHARGE WEIGHTS BETWEEN SPEER #8 AND SPEER #9

.380 ACP - WW case - CCI 500
90-gr JHP - 4.3 to 4.7 - 907 to 1004 fps
[4.5 to 4.7 - 987 to 1022 fps - Speer #9]
95-gr LRN - 4.0 to 4.3 - 935 to 996 fps
100-gr Speer JHP - 4.3 to 4.5 - 924 to 962 - Speer #9

9mm Parabellum - WRA case - CCI 500
90-gr JHP - 6.5 to 7.0 - 1359 to 1459 fps
[5.8 to 6.2 - 1234 to 1317 fps - Speer case - CCI 500 - Speer #9]
100-gr Speer JHP - 5.4 to 5.8 - 1088 to 1157 fps - Speer case - CCI 500 - Speer #9
125-gr Speer SP - 5.0 to 6.0 - 891 to 1092 fps
[5.1 to 5.5 - 1000 to 1097 fps - Speer case - CCI 500 - Speer #9]

.38 Super - WW case - Alcan small pistol
125-gr Speer SP - 6.5 to 7.5 - 1110 to 1261 fps
[5.5 to 6.0 - 999 to 1080 fps - WW case - CCI 550 - Speer #9]

.38 Special - Speer-DWM case - CCI 550
110-gr JHP - 6.5 to 8.5 - 1045 to 1342 fps
[6.0 to 6.4 - 1058 to 1141 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9]
125-gr Speer SP, HP - 5.5 to 5.7 - 946 to 979 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9
140-gr Speer HP - 5.0 to 5.2 - 853 to 957 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9
146-gr Speer HP - 5.2 to 5.4 - 912 to 947 fps - Speer case - Federal 100 - Speer #9

.357 Magnum - Speer case - CCI 550
158-gr Speer LSWC or LRN - 7.5 to 8.5 - 1136 to 1251 fps
110-gr JHP - 9.5 to 11.5 - 1437 to 1612 fps
125-gr Speer SP - 9.0 to 11.0 - 1283 to 1512 fps

.41 Magnum - Remington case - CCI 350
210-gr LSWC - 8.0 to 9.0 - 915 to 1046 fps
[7.0 to 8.0 - 900 fps to 1034 fps - Speer #9]

.44 Special - WW case - CCI 350
215-gr LSWCGC - 6.5 to 8.5 - 740 to 975 fps
[7.0 to 7.9 - 794 to 902 fps - Speer #9]
250-gr LSWC - 6.5 to 7.5 - 756 to 882 fps
200-gr Speer JHP - 7.0 to 7.6 - 830 to 892 fps - Speer #9
240-gr Speer JSP - 6.5 to 7.0 - 807 to 873 fps - Speer #9

.44 Magnum - WW case - CCI 300
180-gr JSP - 14.0 to 15.0 - 1335 to 1438 fps - Speer #9

.45 Auto Rim - Remington solid head case - CCI 350
225-gr Speer JHP - 6.5 to 6.9 - 757 to 812 fps - Speer #9

.45 ACP - Federal case - CCI 350
200-gr Speer SP - 7.7 to 8.1 - 845 to 909 fps
200-gr Speer LSWC - 6.0 to 6.5 - 701 to 790 fps - CCI 300 - Speer #9
225-gr Speer JHP - 6.8 to 7.2 - 798 to 841 fps - CCI 300 - Speer #9

.45 Colt - WW solid head case - CCI 350
250-gr Speer LSWC - 8.6 to 9.1 - 815 to 862 fps - Speer #9
200-gr JHP - 9.2 to 10.2 - 905 to 1004 fps - Speer #9
225-gr Speer JHP - 9.7 to 10.4 - 871 to 934 fps - Speer #9

Thanks so much. I have looked long and hard for data.

[Echo]

Additionally, I would ensure a heavy crimp, to hang on to the boolit and keep the primer from pushing it too far up the pipe, increasing boiler room volume, thus hampering burn. A heavy crimp is useful when dealing with powders that tend to sulk, and not be as energetic as they should.