I need advice from an AR-15 expert!!!

[walker77]

Ok, i got this S&W 5.45x39 upper around Christmas time. I took it out then, and shot maybe a mag through it. Everything seemed ok, but the only problem was light primer strikes. Ok, no big problem, just need to put in the new spring. I did that. And before i was able to shoot it again, i got a compact acog. So i put on a different gas block so i wouldnt have the front sight in the scope picture. Ok, so i take it out last month to shoot it again and i had my shells getting stuck in the chamber. I tried pulling the charging handle but the thing wouldnt budge. I had to run a cleaning rod down the barrel to try to get them out. They were in there so tight, i had to hit the handle with a hammer to get the shell knocked loose. So i thought i just didnt clean it good enought the first time. When i got home i cleaned the chamber real good and put it away. So that brings me to this weekend. I go to shoot it again, and the same problem happened. I dont understand what it could be. I never had a problem like this with my 223 uppers. I even put the 5.45x39 on my 223 lower just to make sure i didnt mess something up when i put the new hammer spring in my 5.45 lower. But the same thing happened. So either something is wrong with the bolt/bolt carrier or something is screwed up in the chamber. I really hate to pay to send it back to S&W and have to wait 4 or 5 weeks for them to send it back to me. Could it be possible that there is a spacing problem with the barrel or something? Ive tried everything i can think of. Im fed up with it!

[StarMetal]

Ok, i got this S&W 5.45x39 upper around Christmas time. I took it out then, and shot maybe a mag through it. Everything seemed ok, but the only problem was light primer strikes. Ok, no big problem, just need to put in the new spring. I did that. And before i was able to shoot it again, i got a compact acog. So i put on a different gas block so i wouldnt have the front sight in the scope picture. Ok, so i take it out last month to shoot it again and i had my shells getting stuck in the chamber. I tried pulling the charging handle but the thing wouldnt budge. I had to run a cleaning rod down the barrel to try to get them out. They were in there so tight, i had to hit the handle with a hammer to get the shell knocked loose. So i thought i just didnt clean it good enought the first time. When i got home i cleaned the chamber real good and put it away. So that brings me to this weekend. I go to shoot it again, and the same problem happened. I dont understand what it could be. I never had a problem like this with my 223 uppers. I even put the 5.45x39 on my 223 lower just to make sure i didnt mess something up when i put the new hammer spring in my 5.45 lower. But the same thing happened. So either something is wrong with the bolt/bolt carrier or something is screwed up in the chamber. I really hate to pay to send it back to S&W and have to wait 4 or 5 weeks for them to send it back to me. Could it be possible that there is a spacing problem with the barrel or something? Ive tried everything i can think of. Im fed up with it!

Let's tackle the firing pin first. This is a major problem with AR15's in 7.62x39 too! The reason is the surplus ammo and the new military ammo in that caliber has a very very hard primer. There is a fix and it's been on the AR15.COM forum for years. The firing pin isn't protruding enough. There are two ways to make it longer. Notice on the back of the firing is a big flange that stops it's forward movement when it hits the tail on the bolt. By machining that back just a wee wee wee bit the pin will protrude further. That's one way. The other way is to file down the tail of the bolt carrier, again a wee wee wee bit.

As far as the cases sticking first thing I would look for is a rough chamber. I doubt that is the case, but easy enough to check. The other thing I suspect are the cartridge cases steel? If so the coating they put on them can and will gum up the chamber and cause that problem. The coating is on there in the first place to keep the steel case from rusting. There are two coatings I'm familiar with the first one being lacquer. "The second is some sort of plastic. So you may need to clean your chamber with solvents that will dissolve lacquer and one for plastic.

Let's go with this and see what you discover.

By the way it's cheaper to buy a firing pin then a bolt so the mod to the firing pin flange is cheaper.

[dk17hmr]

Tip for stuck shell/bolt......with the rifle inverted pull the charge handle while slamming the buttstock into the ground, shooting bench, table, meaty part above your knee....when I say slamming I dont mean hard but just enough to help dislodge the stuck case. This is what works for me, ussally about 3" of downward movement to the bench while pull the charge handle down will get it.

[redneckdan]

Doug's way is the best way. Pound on the charging handle and you will break it off. Pushing with a cleaning rod won't rotate the locking lugs. By slamming the butt you are using the inertia of the bolt carrier. I 2nd the idea of residue build up in the chamber area. Try acetone.

[StarMetal]

I think he figured out that if you don't pull on the charging handle while pounding on the cleaning rod to get the bolt open. Without pulling on the charging handle you're never going to get a bolt open pounding on it all you want.

[mike in co]

what no one mentions is case type....is the ammo laquered ??
if so there is no real fix.....you have to clean the chamber every 50 rounds or so....
the lacquer heats up and transferes to the chamber walls.....and stays there.

then rounds start sticking....


mike in co

[hcpookie]

So i put on a different gas block so i wouldnt have the front sight in the scope picture.

I would *definitely* check the gas port. You may have it partially obstructed...

Also, if you have a burr on the end of the chamber it will grab the cases and cause that very thing. If you manage to get a case extracted, check it for scratch marks or small gouges. If you find one, you can probably touch it up with a really small emory file and then a buffer wheel.




Laquer doesn't heat up and melt THAT FAST. Testing with my friends' and family's ARs with .223 laquered which is straighter than 5.45 showed no issues after several cases and minimal cleaning (yes this was back when ammo was affordable). Don't believe all the hype. If you've got melted laquer you're running it REALLY REALLY hot as in firing mags full in FA. Never has been an issue for AK-74 rifle chambers... yes they are piston driven but are still gas operated. From your description it doesn't sound like you're mowing down soda cans so I will guess you aren't getting chamber fouling.

[mike in co]

I would *definitely* check the gas port. You may have it partially obstructed...

Also, if you have a burr on the end of the chamber it will grab the cases and cause that very thing. If you manage to get a case extracted, check it for scratch marks or small gouges. If you find one, you can probably touch it up with a really small emory file and then a buffer wheel.




Laquer doesn't heat up and melt THAT FAST. Testing with my friends' and family's ARs with .223 laquered which is straighter than 5.45 showed no issues after several cases and minimal cleaning (yes this was back when ammo was affordable). Don't believe all the hype. If you've got melted laquer you're running it REALLY REALLY hot as in firing mags full in FA. Never has been an issue for AK-74 rifle chambers... yes they are piston driven but are still gas operated. From your description it doesn't sound like you're mowing down soda cans so I will guess you aren't getting chamber fouling.


not hype.....just because yours did not stick, does not mean it does not happen.
it does happen

rate of fire is the big issue.

if you blast, you will have heat, you will get transfer, and most likely have issues.

it does happen in ak's but much latter as they have large chambers....not the same comparison at all...it all about rate of fire and cleaning.

an ar is not an ak....so a very invalid comparison.

notice he does not say failure to eject, he said STUCK.

IT DOES HAPPEN...AND HE IS HAVING AN ISSUE....so he should check !


mike in co

[StarMetal]

not hype.....just because yours did not stick, does not mean it does not happen.
it does happen

rate of fire is the big issue.

if you blast, you will have heat, you will get transfer, and most likely have issues.

it does happen in ak's but much latter as they have large chambers....not the same comparison at all...it all about rate of fire and cleaning.

an ar is not an ak....so a very invalid comparison.

notice he does not say failure to eject, he said STUCK.

IT DOES HAPPEN...AND HE IS HAVING AN ISSUE....so he should check !


mike in co

Dead on Mike. There are lots of things that pop up when shooting cartridges in the AR15 that is wasn't designed for. The 7.62x39 is a classic example. First problem are magazine realated. The AR wasn't designed to use a very curved magazine such as needed with the 7.62 round. Second is the ignition system of the AR wasn't designed for the very hard primers on the same round. As Mike pointed out the AR has a much tighter chamber then AK's.

[RU shooter]

What ammo are you using? If milsurplus.Bulgarian or Russian thats on the market now is very corrosive and may have gunked/rusted up your gas tube partially blocking it.Clean with water after use. that goes for the gas tube and block too.

[danski26]

Joe,

"The other way is to file down the tail of the bolt carrier, again a wee wee wee bit."

Don't you mean the tail of the bolt? If not i'm lost on that bit of advice.

Also something to think about....If you are having stuck case problems you are probably also having chambering problems. The cases could be hard to chamber leaving the bolt unlocked. The firing pin will not strike the primer hard enough to light it off. You might solve you light strike problem if you fix your sticky chamber problem first.

[hcpookie]

All good points but I can't imagine that S&W would have made a known military surplus-only caliber with the tightness (or precision if you prefer) of a .223 chamber... besides the 5.45 is a tapered cartridge which helps itself in extraction. So I believe my questions are valid, however I'm only trying to be helpful, not argue the point.

What about the extractor itself? My brother's AR had similar stuck case problems which we finally tracked down to extractor failures due to a weak extractor spring. He finally replaced it after going through enough cleaning rods to remove the stuck cases... :) I know AK extractors for 5.45 and 5.56 are a little different... could the wrong extractor be present here.

Now that I think about it, RU Shooter may be on to something because as I remember my brother had a really dirty bolt that time we had to hammer the cartridge out of the chamber. Went through a can of carb cleaner to clear out the carbon buildup on the bolt as it wasn't able to fully rotate. Yes I proceeded to educate him on how to fully disassemble his bolt for cleaning :) Something to look consider at least.

If you still can't get the cartridge out you should try spraying PB BLaster or Kroil or some other anti-seize oil down the barrel and let it soak around the chamber.

[StarMetal]

Joe,

"The other way is to file down the tail of the bolt carrier, again a wee wee wee bit."

Don't you mean the tail of the bolt? If not i'm lost on that bit of advice.

Also something to think about....If you are having stuck case problems you are probably also having chambering problems. The cases could be hard to chamber leaving the bolt unlocked. The firing pin will not strike the primer hard enough to light it off. You might solve you light strike problem if you fix your sticky chamber problem first.

The AR is designed that if the bolt doesn't fully lock the hammer can't hit the firing pin. So that's void.

[StarMetal]

What ammo are you using? If milsurplus.Bulgarian or Russian thats on the market now is very corrosive and may have gunked/rusted up your gas tube partially blocking it.Clean with water after use. that goes for the gas tube and block too.

I highly doubt this too as the 5.45x39 is a relatively new cartridge. I haven't seen any of it listed as corrosive. Most countries don't make new corrosive ammo.

The gas tubes on AR's are stainless steel and I doubt it would corrode, plug yes, but in my life time haven't seen anyone I know plug one either.

[StarMetal]

All good points but I can't imagine that S&W would have made a known military surplus-only caliber with the tightness (or precision if you prefer) of a .223 chamber... besides the 5.45 is a tapered cartridge which helps itself in extraction. So I believe my questions are valid, however I'm only trying to be helpful, not argue the point.

What about the extractor itself? My brother's AR had similar stuck case problems which we finally tracked down to extractor failures due to a weak extractor spring. He finally replaced it after going through enough cleaning rods to remove the stuck cases... :) I know AK extractors for 5.45 and 5.56 are a little different... could the wrong extractor be present here.

Now that I think about it, RU Shooter may be on to something because as I remember my brother had a really dirty bolt that time we had to hammer the cartridge out of the chamber. Went through a can of carb cleaner to clear out the carbon buildup on the bolt as it wasn't able to fully rotate. Yes I proceeded to educate him on how to fully disassemble his bolt for cleaning :) Something to look consider at least.

If you still can't get the cartridge out you should try spraying PB BLaster or Kroil or some other anti-seize oil down the barrel and let it soak around the chamber.

The poster didn't say anything about the extractor slipping over the cartridge rim. Even if it did the case shouldn't be stuck as hard as it was. It's the coatings on the ammo.

The AR15 may look like a simple design but I suggest that anyone that owns one to get all the reading material on it that they can. There's a lot of things unseen to the naked eye going on in operation.

If his extractor didn't break with that hard of a case stuck in the chamber I'd say he has one good extractor.

[mike in co]

read his lips...

they are having to BEAT the STUCK case out.

its not a plain failure to extract.


yes you can check everything in the process. extractor, extractor spring, gas tube, bolt, cam pin etc. everything should be checked

but the user still has not answered the simple questions: is the ammo lacquered case ammo ?

mike in co

[danski26]

"The AR is designed that if the bolt doesn't fully lock the hammer can't hit the firing pin. So that's void."

Yeah....no kidding! What I'm saying is if it is not locked it won't fire and the light hit on the primer from the floating pin as it is chambered will look like a light hit from the hammer. So a chamber full of laquer could cause the fail to fire. fixing the sticky chamber may cure the fail to fire.

Saying that something is "void" when it is you that does not understand what I am saying is rude.

When i didn't understand what you where saying "The other way is to file down the tail of the bolt carrier, again a wee wee wee bit." I asked you if you made a mistake and meant the tail of the bolt instead of bolt carrier but you ignored that question and "voided" me.

[StarMetal]

"The AR is designed that if the bolt doesn't fully lock the hammer can't hit the firing pin. So that's void."

Yeah....no kidding! What I'm saying is if it is not locked it won't fire and the light hit on the primer from the floating pin as it is chambered will look like a light hit from the hammer. So a chamber full of laquer could cause the fail to fire. fixing the sticky chamber may cure the fail to fire.

Saying that something is "void" when it is you that does not understand what I am saying is rude.

When i didn't understand what you where saying "The other way is to file down the tail of the bolt carrier, again a wee wee wee bit." I asked you if you made a mistake and meant the tail of the bolt instead of bolt carrier but you ignored that question and "voided" me.

Danski, you said this: The cases could be hard to chamber leaving the bolt unlocked. The firing pin will not strike the primer hard enough to light it off. You might solve you light strike problem if you fix your sticky chamber problem first.

You didn't say anything about the light inertia firing pin hit on the primer in the other post. Why didn't you say that in the first place and leave the bolt locking/unlocking out of all together?

Oooops, shoot me....I added carrier after the word bolt.

Rude...but I know my AR's.

[richbug]

I highly doubt this too as the 5.45x39 is a relatively new cartridge. I haven't seen any of it listed as corrosive. Most countries don't make new corrosive ammo.

The gas tubes on AR's are stainless steel and I doubt it would corrode, plug yes, but in my life time haven't seen anyone I know plug one either.



The Bulgarian and Russian military surplus ammo as late as the 90's certainly is corrosive.

[StarMetal]

The Bulgarian and Russian military surplus ammo as late as the 90's certainly is corrosive.

That's 20.5 years ago. Would have to be surplus. Doesn't matter, still not going to phase the gas tube. Also in the short amount of time he has had the rifle and shot it, it functioned fine. Even if it would corrode it's not going to corrode that fast

Let's discuss his stuck cartridge case problem, not whether the ammo is corrosive or not.

You guys are grasping at straws.

[RU shooter]

The Bulgarian and Russian military surplus ammo as late as the 90's certainly is corrosive.

Yep it certianly is! the Bulgarian is I believe from the 1980's and the Russian surplus is mid to late 70's dated.And Stainless CAN corrode! depends what grade of Stainless it is.

[StarMetal]

Yep it certianly is! the Bulgarian is I believe from the 1980's and the Russian surplus is mid to late 70's dated.And Stainless CAN corrode! depends what grade of Stainless it is.

All those are surplus from ages ago. The Russian military is mildy corrosive. The Bulgarian more so. It's not going to corrode his rifle that fast that bad. Read his post, he got it for Xmas, and just took it out and ran a magazine through it.

By the way the Russian is laquer coated, more then likely the Bulgarian is too.

Straw graspers!!!!

[StarMetal]

Just for the heck of it take some of the ammo you are having a problem with and clean off the coating on the case using either lacquer thinner or acetone. Shoot some and see what happens. Make sure you cleaned your chamber too. While we're at it what ammo were you using?

[richbug]

That's 20.5 years ago. Would have to be surplus. Doesn't matter, still not going to phase the gas tube. Also in the short amount of time he has had the rifle and shot it, it functioned fine. Even if it would corrode it's not going to corrode that fast

Let's discuss his stuck cartridge case problem, not whether the ammo is corrosive or not.

You guys are grasping at straws.


What planet are you on? I clearly said "SURPLUS" The late 90's would be 11 years ago.

A month will corrode it enough that it won't work. Been there done that. The gas port is only .0625".

I personally would look at the gas block. The OP stated that he changed it. Pretty easy to get it off half a hole.

[StarMetal]

What planet are you on? I clearly said "SURPLUS" The late 90's would be 11 years ago.

A month will corrode it enough that it won't work. Been there done that. The gas port is only .0625".

I personally would look at the gas block. The OP stated that he changed it. Pretty easy to get it off half a hole.

The OP also said he had to pound the case out...what planet are you on? The gas port being partly blocked off or even blocked off has NOTHING to do with the case being stuck in chamber. As an aside the chamber, bore, and gas port hole are chromed. Why is chromed used? Prevent corrosion. Again I positive he doesn't have a corrosion problem. I have gas cutoffs on my AR's and I can turn my gas off and operate them as a single shot. Meaning you don't have to have gas to get a case out of the chamber. So...you're positive the gas port hole is 1/16th of inch hole huh???????

Keyboard gunsmiths :killingpc

[richbug]

So...you're positive the gas port hole is 1/16th of inch hole huh???????

Keyboard gunsmiths :killingpc

Positive, I have actually built barrels from blanks. On a .625" diameter 14.5" to 20 barrel 1/16 is normal. They get bigger from there depending on barrel diameter and length, but I am sure you already knew that as you seem to know everything.

A stuck case makes perfect sense if it partially cycled, then slammed back shut.

The POGO is the proper way to clear it without breaking anything.

[StarMetal]

Positive, I have actually built barrels from blanks. On a .625" diameter 14.5" to 20 barrel 1/16 is normal. They get bigger from there depending on barrel diameter and length, but I am sure you already knew that as you seem to know everything.

A stuck case makes perfect sense if it partially cycled, then slammed back shut.

The POGO is the proper way to clear it without breaking anything.

They don't always follow the rule of length and barrel diameter, but in general do. Here are some official Colt sizes to specific barrel lengths:

For 5.56mm
Colt's gas port sizes are:
* 10.5" - .093
* 11.5" - .081
* 14.5" - .063
* 16" - .063

Theoretically a fired case should rechamber in the rifle it was fired from. I'm still going with the initial diagnosis that it's the lacquer coating on the cases sticking the case in the chamber.

[mike in co]

until walker77 gets back to us on his choice of ammo...all is just guessing.

i looked on line and about 1/2 the available ammo is lacquer coated mil surplus, 1/4 wolf metal case and 1/4 silver bear cad plated steel.

so there are two good choice to use without getting into the lacquer issue.

mike in co

[chaos]

I Kind of know my way around AR rifles as well. I agree with Starmetal about the ammo being the culprit.

BUT I've never seen the laquer melt on a case. I've sure seen many a steel case lock an AR rifle tighter than a drum though. I believe those steel cases just dont spring back enough after fireing like brass does. None of my ar's will digest that ****.
Commie rifles have sloppy chambers= no problem for cheap junk ammo.

I've ran a Mak -90 once until the finish on the handguards bubbled up and melted. It never cooked off a round in the chamber, nor melted any laquer on the cases.

But alas the days of cheap chinese surplus $68/1200 wooden case of ammo are LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG gone.

There are heavier hammersprings on the market to deal with primers that are of harder construction such as for 50 BMG uppers

[mike in co]

try an ar15 with lacquered cases in 223/5.56 ..do some blasting and see what happens....

again comparison to an ak is not relevent.

[StarMetal]

I Kind of know my way around AR rifles as well. I agree with Starmetal about the ammo being the culprit.

BUT I've never seen the laquer melt on a case. I've sure seen many a steel case lock an AR rifle tighter than a drum though. I believe those steel cases just dont spring back enough after fireing like brass does. None of my ar's will digest that ****.
Commie rifles have sloppy chambers= no problem for cheap junk ammo.

I've ran a Mak -90 once until the finish on the handguards bubbled up and melted. It never cooked off a round in the chamber, nor melted any laquer on the cases.

But alas the days of cheap chinese surplus $68/1200 wooden case of ammo are LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG gone.

There are heavier hammersprings on the market to deal with primers that are of harder construction such as for 50 BMG uppers

Now on another forum a member said the cases were lacquered as to not harm the chamber being the case is steel. I'd say the main reason is to seal the steel from the elements and rusting...but it sure doesn't take the fired cases on the ground long to rust so that lacquer or polymer is coming off somewhere. You ever get a hot case out of a 223 on you right out of the chamber? They are plenty hot.

I think, like Mike says, the chambers in the AK type are so generous that you just didn't notice if there was lacquer in it. Most on more then one forum say the issue is more pronounced in full auto which makes sense because there's more heat.

I agree with that the steel may not shrink back as much and would be more "grabby" to a steel chamber then a brass case. Lots of people won't run steel in their high dollar AR's because they think it wears the chamber faster then brass.

[chaos]

Mike,
I wasn't comparing an AR to an AK...... only meant that I've run piles of that stuff through an AK and did not noticed any laquer runs or voids on THE EMPTIES after firning the heck out of the AK type until it was ever so hot. A heck of a lot hotter than most run their guns I would presume. I actually was setting out to try and make this gun malfunction that day. Never happened, just got too hot to handle with an oven mitt.


I do know that the steel cases are HARD on extractors in an AR platform as I've helped a few guys fix their rifles. Might be from all the jams and the tapping the butt of the weapon on the ground trying to jerk that trash out of the chamber though.

The very little steel that I have fired through my AR's either was so under powered that it wouldn't cycle my gun, patterened like a mossberg 500, or immediately siezed up the entire works, couldn't get it to run long enough to get hot or even warm for that matter.

The newer stuff by wolf and the like is supposedly better from what I've read. I dont even pretend to know as I just do have any use for it.


In my humble opinion, you dont buy a corvette and try to run it on Kerosene.

Like you say though, cant really answer the OP's question 'til we know what he was feeding the thing.

[mike in co]

Mike,


In my humble opinion, you dont buy a corvette and try to run it on Kerosene.

Like you say though, cant really answer the OP's question 'til we know what he was feeding the thing.

but i have seen people do just that....

buy a nice ar and go run lacquered cases, get problems in less than 100 rds and then bad mouth the brand name......

even with the bad mouthing the maker checked out the rifle and returned it WITH A CLEAN CHAMBER.

mike in co

[DnB54]

While we are on the subject, I have something similar going on in my AR. The bolt is not ejecting the fired case. The case is not stuck, I can easily pull the charging handle and the empty round will come out. I have changed the ejector and put a lighter spring in behind the buffer. I'm shooting a rifle, not the carbine. I changed gas blocks and I know the tube is completely clear. I put a small plastic hose to the gas tube inside the receiver and the air flows freely. The only thing I can think of is that factory Rem and Hornady ammo is not powerful enough to blow the bolt completely back and eject the shell and load a second round in. I reloaded some hotter rounds, but it's beed crappy here so I haven't been able to get out. You guys got any other ideas?

[chaos]

Make sure your gas key is not loose and properly staked to the bolt carrier.

[mike in co]

Make sure your gas key is not loose and properly staked to the bolt carrier.

won't cause a case to STICK......

failure to extract, yes


poor cycling, yes


butr he says he has to beat the case out

[DnB54]

If the gas key statement was directed to me, yes it's torqued to specifications and it has been staked. The bolt moves freely in the receiver.

[danski26]

I figured the important information was the fact that the lacquer in the chamber may cause the bolt not to lock and the rifle fail to fire.

Walker,

Is the barrel and chamber chrome-moly, stainless steel or chrome lined?

[mike in co]

While we are on the subject, I have something similar going on in my AR. The bolt is not ejecting the fired case. The case is not stuck, I can easily pull the charging handle and the empty round will come out. I have changed the ejector and put a lighter spring in behind the buffer. I'm shooting a rifle, not the carbine. I changed gas blocks and I know the tube is completely clear. I put a small plastic hose to the gas tube inside the receiver and the air flows freely. The only thing I can think of is that factory Rem and Hornady ammo is not powerful enough to blow the bolt completely back and eject the shell and load a second round in. I reloaded some hotter rounds, but it's beed crappy here so I haven't been able to get out. You guys got any other ideas?

start another thread...too easy to confuse the two issues.......

thanks
mike in co

[StarMetal]

I figured the important information was the fact that the lacquer in the chamber may cause the bolt not to lock and the rifle fail to fire.

Walker,

Is the barrel and chamber chrome-moly, stainless steel or chrome lined?


I'll answer that, not only does S&W chrome the bore and chamber, but they chrome the bolt, but the gas key and carrier.

[StarMetal]

won't cause a case to STICK......

failure to extract, yes


poor cycling, yes


butr he says he has to beat the case out

How come Mike and I are the only ones that understand what the OP has said? He has to pound the cases out of the chamber. That has nothing to do with the rest of the firearm, but the chamber and the cartridge.

[mike in co]

I'll answer that, not only does S&W chrome the bore and chamber, but they chrome the bolt, but the gas key and carrier.

cause.

chrome it if it does not go...........

[StarMetal]

cause.

chrome it if it does not go...........

I meant to say they chrome the bore, chamber, carrier, and gas key.

[danski26]

I understood what he asked and you and Mike are giving good advice.

[chaos]

won't cause a case to STICK......

failure to extract, yes


poor cycling, yes


butr he says he has to beat the case out

Failure to extract/ poor cycling is what I was answering to. Another indivudual posted a question right before my answer.

Do you have some kind of BEEF with me? Or do you just lack reading skills?

I believe I'll sit this one out the rest of the way fellas. Good luck fixin your problems.

Chaos

[bruce drake]

Not to be another keyboard gunsmith...what is the condition of the chamber itself. Sometimes a roughly cut chamber will cause poor extraction as well. Just because a chamber is chrome-lined doesn't mean the chamber was polished smoothly before the chroming was done.
Bruce

[mike in co]

Failure to extract/ poor cycling is what I was answering to. Another indivudual posted a question right before my answer.

Do you have some kind of BEEF with me? Or do you just lack reading skills?

I believe I'll sit this one out the rest of the way fellas. Good luck fixin your problems.

Chaos


read what he has asked....

he has to beat the case out...that is not a typical failure to extract.
he did not say "tap" it out, he said BEAT it out

not poor cycling.

your answer is not relevent to the issue.

if your key answer was to the guy that jumped in with another issue..i asked him to start another thread so that answers do not get confusing between two different issues.

no its not personal

[StarMetal]

read what he has asked....

he has to beat the case out...that is not a typical failure to extract.
he did not say "tap" it out, he said BEAT it out

not poor cycling.

your answer is not relevent to the issue.

if your key answer was to the guy that jumped in with another issue..i asked him to start another thread so that answers do not get confusing between two different issues.

no its not personal

No no na nah Mike. Chaos is talking about another posters question not the OP. That's why it was a good idea you gave the one poster who had a problem to post it in a separate thread.

In my first post I told the poster about the firing pin modifications. Then I said the first thing to do about the stuck case is inspect the chamber to insure that it's in good shape and I said that I doubted it was a chamber problem, especially since they are chromed. I still stick to the ammunition problem, particularly the cases being coated with either lacquer or plastic.

[walker77]

read his lips...

they are having to BEAT the STUCK case out.

its not a plain failure to extract.


yes you can check everything in the process. extractor, extractor spring, gas tube, bolt, cam pin etc. everything should be checked

but the user still has not answered the simple questions: is the ammo lacquered case ammo ?

mike in co

Sorry guys, i thought i had my notifications turned on. I guess i missed it, so i didnt realize anyone answered my post. Anyway, yes i am using steel cased ammo. As far as i know its the only thing available with this round. The extractor is holding strong. I can do like some mentioned an pull on the charging handle while hitting the butt on the ground and it will pop the case out. I fired the gun again today, trying different things. I finally took the gas block and gas tube completely off the rifle and tried firing it. I knew it wouldnt cycle the bolt, but i wanted to make sure nothing was binding up. But it still did the same thing. Ive ran a brush down the barrel and used a chamber brush. I guess its possible i didnt get it good enough. Any other thoughts? Im trying to do all i can so i can avoid sending it to S&W Besides i dont know if they will void the warranty since i replaced the gas block.

[StarMetal]

Sorry guys, i thought i had my notifications turned on. I guess i missed it, so i didnt realize anyone answered my post. Anyway, yes i am using steel cased ammo. As far as i know its the only thing available with this round. The extractor is holding strong. I can do like some mentioned an pull on the charging handle while hitting the butt on the ground and it will pop the case out. I fired the gun again today, trying different things. I finally took the gas block and gas tube completely off the rifle and tried firing it. I knew it wouldnt cycle the bolt, but i wanted to make sure nothing was binding up. But it still did the same thing. Ive ran a brush down the barrel and used a chamber brush. I guess its possible i didnt get it good enough. Any other thoughts? Im trying to do all i can so i can avoid sending it to S&W Besides i dont know if they will void the warranty since i replaced the gas block.

I'd try one or more different brands/type of ammo first before condemning the rifle. Maybe when you scrub the chamber spray it carb or brake cleaner. Did you try that lacquer thinner or Acetone?

[walker77]

No i didnt try any other cleaner other than bore cleaner

[StarMetal]

No i didnt try any other cleaner other than bore cleaner


You might get yourself one of the 5.56 chamber and locking lugs cleaning brushes. That cartridge isn't enough different then a 5.56 that the brush wouldn't work. Heck I even used it on my 6.5 Grendel.

[walker77]

Ok, its fixed. I was stupid and installed the gas tube up side down when i put everything back together when i put the new gas block on. I still cant believe i put it in up side down. But oh well. It still doesnt make sense why i couldnt eject them out by hand after i fired the round. You would think it could still be ejected by hand. I never realized there was that much preasure kicking back the bolt carrier after every shot. Im hoping that what ever the problem may be in the chamber, that after its broke in, it will solve the problem. I appreciate your guys's help on all this.

[StarMetal]

Ok, its fixed. I was stupid and installed the gas tube up side down when i put everything back together when i put the new gas block on. I still cant believe i put it in up side down. But oh well. It still doesnt make sense why i couldnt eject them out by hand after i fired the round. You would think it could still be ejected by hand. I never realized there was that much preasure kicking back the bolt carrier after every shot. Im hoping that what ever the problem may be in the chamber, that after its broke in, it will solve the problem. I appreciate your guys's help on all this.

How you mean you put the gas tube upside down? They have a crook in them and it's near the gas block end. If it isn't right side up you'd have a devil of a time lining up the holes. I can understand if somehow you managed to get it in upside down then the gas hole in the tube would be facing away from the gas hole in the gas block and essentially seal off the gas block hole.

Well glad you figured that out. You're right, you would think that you could hand extract and eject a fired case....I know I can on ALL my AR15's. Like I said before I doubt the chamber is bad and they are chromed.

[walker77]

Not exactly sure how i managed to do it, tallent maybe?. Thats probably why i had a little bit of binding going on when i was moving the bolt carrier by hand in the receiver.

[shotman]

walker they will go in upside down and easy on anything except a colt . They will on a colt but snug After you fire a round the bolt tends to bind because in normal use the bolt is starting to release before the brass finishes the expandtion process.

[StarMetal]

walker they will go in upside down and easy on anything except a colt . They will on a colt but snug After you fire a round the bolt tends to bind because in normal use the bolt is starting to release before the brass finishes the expandtion process.

That's called bad timing or incorrect gas port hole size. Most Colt's I've seen are over gassed. If your primers are excessively flattened for a normal load known not to be hot, that's another sign of the just fore mentioned. One reason I run an adjustable gas system on my AR's. If the SHTF I'll open the gas valve wide open to insure operation under all conditions. And that's not a normal operation. Also the carrier and bolt, being both movable, when the gas first enters the piston/cylinder area it pushes in all directions which means it's pushing hard on the bolt too and this relieves some of the friction on the locking lugs before the bolt actually gets cammed or turn.

[walker77]

Really? I mean i knew the gas pushed the carrier back, but i never really knew it was that detailed. And ive had ar's for close to 10 years. So what is your guys thoughts on the piston system? The only reason i am really considering it is because the 5.45x39 ammo is corrosive. Not a big problem, but it would be nice to keep all that junk out of the receiver.

[StarMetal]

Really? I mean i knew the gas pushed the carrier back, but i never really knew it was that detailed. And ive had ar's for close to 10 years. So what is your guys thoughts on the piston system? The only reason i am really considering it is because the 5.45x39 ammo is corrosive. Not a big problem, but it would be nice to keep all that junk out of the receiver.

The military has done like over 45 years with the M16 as a direct impingement system. Only recently are they going to try a piston system on it.

Here's what I think. The rifle was never designed to be piston operated. What happens when the piston rod strikes the carrier key (which on the piston system is integral with the carrier and also solid,plus shaped different) not only driving the carrier back, but tilting the rear end of the carrier. This results on undue wear on the rear of the upper receiver bore. You will have noticed to combat this that some manufactures are showing their improved carriers which have raised ribs on the rear portion bottom I believe. It wasn't as simple as just putting a gas piston on it. The gas impingement system proves more accurate because there isn't added weigh (such as with the gas cylinder, piston, operating rod, and spring) which changes the barrel harmonics. Also there is tension put between the upper receiver and the piston/cylinder setup. Remember on the impingement system the gas tube is free floating on the end that goes into the receiver. So the barrel doesn't have any tension on it what so ever from the impingement system.

[Piedmont]

walker77, I just read this entire thread trying to learn something about ARs. It isn't clear to me how the rifle is running now, just that you think you have it fixed.

If you could give us some reports it would be appreciated. The ammo situation with 5.45x39 makes all models that will accept it attractive. So whether it runs well or does not is of interest to many of us. Thanks.

[walker77]

Everything works fine on the rifle. I just put another 100 rounds through it saturday

[StarMetal]

Everything works fine on the rifle. I just put another 100 rounds through it saturday

Please tell us what it was you done to achieve that.

[walker77]

Its already stated in the above posts. When i put the new gas block on, i wasnt paying attention and put the gas tube upside down, when this happened it blocked off any gas from traveling down the tube. So when that was done the action wouldnt function. I still dont understand why i couldnt eject them out by hand, but i guess it doesnt really matter as long as the gun is working

[StarMetal]

Its already stated in the above posts. When i put the new gas block on, i wasnt paying attention and put the gas tube upside down, when this happened it blocked off any gas from traveling down the tube. So when that was done the action wouldnt function. I still dont understand why i couldnt eject them out by hand, but i guess it doesnt really matter as long as the gun is working

Oh, okay, I thought too you figured out why they wouldn't eject by hand. I have many AR's and I've mentioned they have adjustable gas valves on them and I've shot them all with the gas totally off and they cycle fine. I'll be honest with you I don't fire the steel cases in my personal AR's so can't say if I did if they would eject by hand with the gas off. I guess a good test vehicle would be my 7.62x39 AR15. I'll have to get some of the lacquered steel cases and give that a test.

All in all I'm glad it's running for you, enjoy it and enjoy it before all that surplus 5.45x39 ammo dries up. Or at least stock up on it.

[dk17hmr]

Good to hear you got it figured out. I am going to be looking for a barrel and bolt now, the price of surplus ammo is to cheap not to stock up.

[StarMetal]

walker77,

You have a pm (private message) from me.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Good to hear you got it figured out. I am going to be looking for a barrel and bolt now, the price of surplus ammo is to cheap not to stock up.

If I were you I'd get a 6x45 barrel. Uses easy necked up 5.56 brass and is an excellent little round.

[dk17hmr]

If I were you I'd get a 6x45 barrel. Uses easy necked up 5.56 brass and is an excellent little round.

Got one.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/NEF/IMG_0433.jpg

And a 300 Whisper
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/IMG_0420.jpg

And a 6.8 SPC
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/Dougs9point2008.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/dk17hmr/Bulletmolds056.jpg

[walker77]

Um, thats wonderful.... Anyway, the whole reason why i got the 5.45 is because its cheap to shoot.

[dk17hmr]

Um, thats wonderful.... Anyway, the whole reason why i got the 5.45 is because its cheap to shoot.

That would be my main reason for getting one also. At a little over $200 for 2100 rounds of surplus a guy could have alot of fun and if you had to clean up just get a big magnet.

[walker77]

Yeah, the upper was a little expensive compared to others. But i have a little over 3,000 in stock pile. So the cheap price makes it easy to stock up on. If i ever get the money, i would like to have around 30,000 put back. I figured that would be about the life of my barrel.

[mac1911]

Im curious to know if S&W 5.45 upper is the same chamber specs as say any Russian gun chambered in 5.45 ? Also is the S&W 5.45 upper chamber chromed ? assume it does
Personally I have had no issues with steel case ammo in my AR 5.56. I am not nit picky about cleaning either. I bore snake the barrel and a quick wipe off with oil rag. I run 1K rounds before I detail clean. I hardly shoot brass. On another not a friend who has a AR chambered in .223 his jams often when useing wolf mil-clasic 5.56 but not the silver bear .223. Although we both get short cycles from the silver bear sometimes.

[walker77]

Yes its chromed.