Charcoal -Versus- Sawdust

[gray wolf]

Long ago in a different life we used powdered charcoal as a flux for Gold and Silver alloys. The metal was always foundry clean metal, so I assume that the Charcoal was to mix the different metals only. We never had dross when melting precious metal.
# 1- So when we use wax base material for a flux does it do a two fold thing ?
that is bring the impurities to the surface and allow the different metals to mix.

#2- Saw dust on top of our melt prevents oxidation from forming on top of the melt, But what does it do when it is mixed through the melt ? Does it act as a fluxing agent? does it clean the metal ? Why use it instead of wax?

#3- If we let the saw dust burn on top of the melt and get all charred and black
wouldn't that be charcoal ? So the question is why can't we use powdered charcoal to start with. The kind you would use in aquariums or the powdered edible kind.

I know I will get a complete answer for this so thank you in advance.

[dragonrider]

In my experience wax or any other petroleum based product only makes a mess of your pot. In time that will cause buildup of deposits on the sides and bottom of you pot. Sawdust cleans your melt and does not leave anything behind to build up in your pot because it is not a messy oily, slimy hydrocarbon that does not go away completely.
Charcoal from an aquarium might work very well, do you have it available??? if so leave it for your fish, it costs money, if not why buy it?? you problably have some sawdust somewhere, if not I'm sure you can make some real quick.

[SciFiJim]

I wadded up a plastic shopping bag and stuck it in my pocket before a trip to Lowes. They will cut lumber for you and have a barrel sized shop vac that sucks up the sawdust. I asked and they let me fill that bag for free. I wound up with a couple of gallons of sawdust that I store in large cleaned pickle jars until I need a good three finger pinch of sawdust on my melt. If I ever need more I know where to get it.

[gray wolf]

sounds like sawdust is going to get a try very soon.
At the momment I have fine wood shavings that are used for pet bedding.
You think they will work ? wood is wood.

[prs]

An if'n ya ain't got no saw dust and no wood shop and not close to the lumber yard; go to the pantry and get some grits or oatmeal or cornmeal or bran flakes or........

prs

[Fugowii]

I picked up a half bag of unused cedar pet bedding at the recycling shed at my dump. Works great
and smell terrific in the pot.

[troy_mclure]

ive got 3 bags of kingsford and no charcoal grill, and ill be smelting/alloying soon so i may try the charcoal.

[357maximum]

I have used surplus willow charcoal very effectively as flux just to see. I use mixed pine/maple/oak sawdust and it does 99% of my fluxing. It all seems to work.

[prickett]

Does the burnt sawdust clog up the spout of a Lee bottom pour pot?

[jandbn]

I wouldn't think it would as long as the lead level is above the entrance to the spout inside the pot. Only something heavier than lead will sink to the bottom. Now if you run your pot low and flux (saw dust ashes) goes into the spout, then I can see all sorts of problems.

[357maximum]

Does the burnt sawdust clog up the spout of a Lee bottom pour pot?

Not possible unless the level gets too low or you are casting while a blender is running in your pot.

:kidding: DO NOT STIR WITH A BLENDER...SLINGING CHOCOLATE IS FUN BUT SLINGING MELT ABOUT WOULD BE ALL BAD.:kidding:

[ghh3rd]

What ever you use, be sure it's completely dry before stirring it into your melt.

[Oyeboten]

Good to know...


I am a Woodworking Shop, so Sawdust and Lathe and Planer Shavings and so on are always abundant.


Sure am glad I was led to this forum...


My first ten minutes here I learned more than I ( or anyone else I ever knew ) did in four years of high school.

[armyrat1970]

I've tried a couple of things for fluxing my melt. Marvelux, which seemed to work fine. Lee NRA Formula (beeswax), which also seemed to work fine. Even old candles in my Lee ten pounder. Always had a little build up around the pot. Started trying oak leaves and the CFF. All seemed to work well as a flux but the oak leaves and the CFF left no build up in the pot.
Have read a number of post here about just stirring your melt with a stick. That's what I have tried after buying my new Lee 20 pounder. (my 10 pounder crapped out on my after many years of service) It seems no build up is on the walls of the pot and after the stick burns a little, it leaves an ash that is floating on top to stop oxidation.
I may still use the Marvelux for fluxing when smelting WWS but I don't think I will use anything else for fluxing, when casting, than a stick, oak leaves or the rest of the CFF I have.
And yes. Sawdust. Wood shavings. CFF. Oak leaves and really any kind of leaf or just a stick is just charcoal when it burns to an ash.

[blackthorn]

# 1- So when we use wax base material for a flux does it do a two fold thing ?
that is bring the impurities to the surface and allow the different metals to mix.

A:-Yes

#2- Saw dust on top of our melt prevents oxidation from forming on top of the melt, But what does it do when it is mixed through the melt ? Does it act as a fluxing agent? does it clean the metal ? Why use it instead of wax?

A:-Strictly speaking, you do not stir the flux "into" the alloy! Consider---when you are melting WW, the steel clips will not stay below the surface no matter how hard or often you push them under. The flux does not go deep into the melt, rather the stirring action brings the molten alloy into contact with the flux and the stirring action loosens crud that is stuck to the sides and bottom of the pot so that it can rise to the top!

#3- If we let the saw dust burn on top of the melt and get all charred and black
wouldn't that be charcoal ?

A:-Yes

[gray wolf]

Thank you all for some very nice answers, I will use the saw dust I have and see if it will clean up my pot a little.

[Recluse]

I made the mistake of using some ground charcoal as flux while casting indoors. That stuff acted exactly like what charcoal does--it smoldered and burned and SMOKED forever and ever.

Good flux, though.

It took several hours of running all the fans in my shop on high-speed and opening the door and all the windows to get the smoke out. Took almost as long for my wife to stop laughing.

I will on occasion use a very small BB-sized ball of lube as a flux in the pot IF I think I need to flux. But I'm religious about fluxing during the smelting process, for which I use wax/discarded lube for the first fluxing run, then sawdust for the second. I rarely ever need to flux the allow that is in my furnace.

Sawdust is good.

:coffee:

[A J]

I'm going to try some walnut tumbling media.......

[357maximum]

I'm going to try some walnut tumbling media.......

Make sure you have EXCELLENT ventilation is you do that. Some people get violantly ill from burnt walnut wood smoke. I would advise against it entirely in fact. Pine/Maple works far better and does not stink or have the potential health issues. Rotenone is a derivative of walnut products and it is used to wipe out whole ponds/lakes/rivers of fish. It is a natural toxin in the walnut to give the walnut a leg up on surrounding vegetation. It could wipe you out if you are in enough of it or are especially susceptible to it.

[Curlymaple42]

I run a woodshop too, so I have tons of dry sawdust! I think cherry will be nice to use. :-) This site is great! Learnin so frigging much!

[StarMetal]

I run a woodshop too, so I have tons of dry sawdust! I think cherry will be nice to use. :-) This site is great! Learnin so frigging much!

Hey Moe, you should throw in that cherry stock for that 25-06 you're not going to finish bwahahahahahahahaha :kidding:

[StarMetal]

Curly is a good friend of mine and he does run a woodshop and he can make furniture like no tomorrow. He can make just about anything out of wood. You should see some of his wood work for the AR15. He also makes any cartridge replica's out of wood. The damn guys a termite. :drinks:

[geargnasher]

Gray Wolf, take some time and read this, once you get the chemical understanding of what's going on you can see what to use.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

FWIW I use diesel fuel, charcoal ligher fluid, old engine oil, candles I can't stand, and lots of sawdust when I "smelt" wheel weights, battery terminals, or any kind of dirty lead alloy. when I cast I just stir the pot with a DRY maple stick (scraps from a friend's cabinet shop) and/or a pinch of sawdust/pea-sized piece of boolit lube. I have no issue with lube crudding the sides of the pot with the exception of Alox-based lubes. Those leave a terrible dark brown tar behind that doesn't burn off.

The bottom line is you need to introduce carbon to the melt to reduce the oxides back into their elemental state, and sawdust also helps cleaning because the ash it forms absorbs dirt and contaminants.

Gear

[LeadThrower]

I'm going to try some walnut tumbling media.......
Make sure you have EXCELLENT ventilation is you do that. Some people get violantly ill from burnt walnut wood smoke. I would advise against it entirely in fact. Pine/Maple works far better and does not stink or have the potential health issues. Rotenone is a derivative of walnut products and it is used to wipe out whole ponds/lakes/rivers of fish. It is a natural toxin in the walnut to give the walnut a leg up on surrounding vegetation. It could wipe you out if you are in enough of it or are especially susceptible to it.

:kidding:
What about ceramic media? That should float nicely and shouldn't have the smoking properties (or toxins) of walnut hulls.
:kidding:

[gray wolf]

Gray Wolf, take some time and read this, once you get the chemical understanding of what's going on you can see what to use.

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

I read the whole article and it was very informative, I liked it and it had many good things to say about the saw dust. I used it today to cast some 32 acp bullets from a loaner Lyman mold. It looked like it did what is was supposed to do. I will use it in the future.
Thank you for pointing it out to me.

Sam

[RICKLANDES]

NOTE: Beware of sawdust from lumber yards unless you know what you are getting. Some of the treated materials are toxic when burned... I like the cherry idea myself...smells like BBQ smoking time :)

[Jack Stanley]

As much as I'd like to stir with a stick , I will resist the urge to saw up my cherry stock blanks into stirring sticks . Use my cherry Garand stock ?!!! perish the thought !!:groner:

Don't y'all start sunthin here !!:kidding:

Has anybody tried the resin that forms on wild cherry trees ... or pine pitch ?

Jack

[Coffeecup]

Tried pine pitch once. It worked OK, but the smoke was so bad I still get headaches thinking about it.

[geargnasher]

Cherrywood in the melt doesn't smell as good as you might think!

I used Western Cedar shavings once, worked great and smelled wonderful, but the toxins in it I have been told are muy bad for inhaling. It did kill all the mosquitos in the shop intantly, though.

Gear

[Coffeecup]

Just a thought. Last night I was recycling odd lots of previously-cast bullets, rejects, sprues, etc, and fluxed with some dust that was behind the chop saw (osage orange this time). Seemed to work great, but I think it was more a matter of particle size. In the past I've tried everything from coarse lathe shavings to dust from the dust collector, but the dust from the cross-cut blade in the chop saw seemed about perfect.

[felix]

Wild Cherry (Prunussp.) - Wild cherry toxicosis can affect all animals, but ruminants are at the greatest risk. All parts of the plant are potentially toxic, however, damaged leaves of the plant are the most toxic. Clinical signs include anxiety, breathing difficulties, staggering, con*vulsions, collapse, and death. Signs usually develop rapidly. Wild Cherry contains cyanogenic precursors that release cyanide when leaves are damaged (maceration, frost, drought, wilting). As little as 2 ounces of ingested, damaged leaves can kill an animal. Blood from animals with cyanide toxicosis is often cherry-red because hemoglobin cannot release oxygen to tissue. Cell death occurs because cyanide binds to the ferric (+3) form of cytochromeoxidase, thus halting cellular respiration. Diagnosis is made by evidence of ingestion of the plant with appropriate clinical signs. Diagnosis is supported by analytical evidence of cyanide in forage and samples from affected animals. Samples for cyanide analysis should be frozen immediately and held frozen until analyzed. Death is frequently so rapid that treatment is not possible. However, if it is possible, treatment consists of sodium nitrite at 10-20 mg/kg with 500 mg/kg sodium thiosulfate as needed. The treatment is directed at breaking the cytochrome-cyanide bond with the nitrite forming cyanomethemoglobin. The thio*sulfate then reacts with the cyanide via the enzyme rhodanase forming thiocyanate which is readily excreted in the urine. Other plants that can under the right conditions contain toxic concentrations of cyanide include sorghum/sudan grass and Johnson-grass.

Japanese Yew (Taxussp.)-Japanese Yew is extremely toxic to all animals. This plant has great potential for toxicity because it is so widely used as an ornamental shrub and clippings are often given to livestock. Clinical signs include breathing problems, trembling, weakness, heart problems, stomach upset and fre*quently, sudden death with no other signs. One mouthful of Japanese Yew can kill a horse or cow within minutes. The toxin in Japanese yew is an alkaloid known as taxine which slows down cardiac conduction. Death is due to cardiac and/or respiratory collapse. As little as 0.1 to 0.5% of fresh plant per body weight is lethal. Japanese Yew is toxic, even when it is dry. Diagnosis of toxicity is made at necropsy by observing leaves in the stomach, or by the detection of taxine in rumen/stomach contents.

[Jack Stanley]

Yikes ! I guess I won't stir with a cherry stick anytime soon !

Jack

[AZ-Stew]

I'd prefer hickory (shagbark) if I can get it. That scent takes me instantly back to Boy Scout Camporees.

Regards,

Stew

[troy_mclure]

just tried the charcoal, man so messy!

kinda cool red glow tho, but heavy super fine grey ash is almost impossible to get out.

[RICKLANDES]

I think I will stick with Maralux...I keep thinking if I can smell the wood smoke I am inhaling the lead vapors,,,hack.....gag......cough

[DLCTEX]

Oak can also contain the cyanogenic toxins. Cattle are poisoned by oak leaves if eaten, which are too tough and unpalatable for them except when first budding. Elder berry, oleander, poinsettia, mistletoe, Poke salad, and so many more plants can be toxic or deadly. Avoid smoke and keep well ventilated is good practice in all casting.

[felix]

Especially Oleander. Those bushes have been eradicated from all of the parks in Houston because of a death from a hot-dog stick in one park. They aren't that many parks in that town and they were/are crowded when the climate was/is good. ... felix

[StarMetal]

How come termites don't eat charcoal? :veryconfu

[A J]

Make sure you have EXCELLENT ventilation is you do that. Some people get violantly ill from burnt walnut wood smoke. I would advise against it entirely in fact. Pine/Maple works far better and does not stink or have the potential health issues. Rotenone is a derivative of walnut products and it is used to wipe out whole ponds/lakes/rivers of fish. It is a natural toxin in the walnut to give the walnut a leg up on surrounding vegetation. It could wipe you out if you are in enough of it or are especially susceptible to it.

Thanks for the heads up on walnut media. Wonder how maple pipe tobacco would work?

A J

[NoZombies]

Pipe tobacco works okay as a flux, but trying to get a "good smelling" flux is a bad idea, no point in TRYING to inhale the nasty stuff that fumes off the pot.

[Randy47360]

I use my left over corn cob media, seems to work ok. I also stir with a broom stick. I've used broken shovel handles, whatever I have around.

[frankenfab]

Wild Cherry (Prunussp.) - Wild cherry toxicosis can affect all animals, but ruminants are at the greatest risk. All parts of the plant are potentially toxic, however, damaged leaves of the plant are the most toxic. Clinical signs include anxiety, breathing difficulties, staggering, con*vulsions, collapse, and death. Signs usually develop rapidly. Wild Cherry contains cyanogenic precursors that release cyanide when leaves are damaged (maceration, frost, drought, wilting). As little as 2 ounces of ingested, damaged leaves can kill an animal. Blood from animals with cyanide toxicosis is often cherry-red because hemoglobin cannot release oxygen to tissue. Cell death occurs because cyanide binds to the ferric (+3) form of cytochromeoxidase, thus halting cellular respiration. Diagnosis is made by evidence of ingestion of the plant with appropriate clinical signs. Diagnosis is supported by analytical evidence of cyanide in forage and samples from affected animals. Samples for cyanide analysis should be frozen immediately and held frozen until analyzed. Death is frequently so rapid that treatment is not possible. However, if it is possible, treatment consists of sodium nitrite at 10-20 mg/kg with 500 mg/kg sodium thiosulfate as needed. The treatment is directed at breaking the cytochrome-cyanide bond with the nitrite forming cyanomethemoglobin. The thio*sulfate then reacts with the cyanide via the enzyme rhodanase forming thiocyanate which is readily excreted in the urine. Other plants that can under the right conditions contain toxic concentrations of cyanide include sorghum/sudan grass and Johnson-grass.

Japanese Yew (Taxussp.)-Japanese Yew is extremely toxic to all animals. This plant has great potential for toxicity because it is so widely used as an ornamental shrub and clippings are often given to livestock. Clinical signs include breathing problems, trembling, weakness, heart problems, stomach upset and fre*quently, sudden death with no other signs. One mouthful of Japanese Yew can kill a horse or cow within minutes. The toxin in Japanese yew is an alkaloid known as taxine which slows down cardiac conduction. Death is due to cardiac and/or respiratory collapse. As little as 0.1 to 0.5% of fresh plant per body weight is lethal. Japanese Yew is toxic, even when it is dry. Diagnosis of toxicity is made at necropsy by observing leaves in the stomach, or by the detection of taxine in rumen/stomach contents.

Does this mean we really shouldn't use cherry wood in the smoker? I thought it was common practice.

[warf73]

Does this mean we really shouldn't use cherry wood in the smoker? I thought it was common practice.

Ive always been told the best smoking woods were fruite and nut trees. I've used lots of cherry and walnute wood over the years.

[dragonrider]

"I use my left over corn cob media"
I think if you give some thought as to what is in that media after you have used it. Primer residue with is lead styphinate, you should not be putting that into your lead pot.

[DLCTEX]

How come termites don't eat charcoal? :veryconfu

They've bought into the hype about grilled foods being bad for you. How could anything that tastes so goo be bad? Maybe that's why there are so few cave men left.:D

[geargnasher]

News flash: EVERYTHING will kill you! Just listen to the liberals! Now they're gonna outlaw wild cherry trees.

Gear

[warf73]

News flash: EVERYTHING will kill you! Just listen to the liberals! Now they're gonna outlaw wild cherry trees.

Gear


LOL true so true.

I've said for years that you have to die from something.