Lee 200 gr in a Swiss K31

[NickSS]

I tried out a new Lee 309-200 GC molded bullets in my Swiss K31 rifle for the first time the other day. I first cast up 50 boolits from WW and sized them in a .311 sizer and lubed them with 50-50 alox and bees wax. I loaded them in my 7.5 swiss brass but had some trouble due to the extreamly short throught of my K31. To get the rounds to chamber the bullet had to be seated until the gas check was below the base of the neck slightly. Even then I had to slam the bolt closed to engrave the boolit slightly into the rifling. The load was 25 gr. of IMR 4198 with nothing else in the case. All firing was done at 100 yards and of the five 10 shot groups fired I got an average spead of 3.2" center to center. Next time out I plan to try the load with a bit of dacron over the powder to see if that makes a difference. There was a slight bit of lead flackes that came out of the barrel. I should point out that these results are about the same as when I load 147 gr. FMJBT bullets and 42 gr of IMR 4064 in this rifle accuracy wise. Also the load shot to point of aim with the issue sights.

[Maven]

Try sizing those 200gr. CB's to .309" and reduce the charge of 4198 to 22 or 23 grains. You also need to seat the CB's a bit deeper into the case so that you won't have to slam the bolt forward with as much force. Btw, don't worry about the base of the CB or gas check being below the neck-shoulder junction* as it doesn't seem to be a factor @ 100yds./100m.


*Jim Carmichael once tested a .243Win. (another short-necked cartridge) with Lyman #245496, an 87gr. Loverin seated normally and as short as 2.29"; i.e., well below the neck-shoulder junction. Guess what? Accuracy was unaffected, although the velocity of the shorter round rose by ~100fps.

[Buckshot]

................NickSS, Holy smoke! I'm surprised a 30 cal Lee would go .311" HA! Some of those K-31's can be pretty tight. You might not only have been seating them a bit deep, but when you slammed the bolt closed you might have had only about .300" of boolit sticking out of the neck with everything else inside the case[smilie=l:

You might try loading one of those slugs and then smudge up the caseneck with soot, mould release, or a magic marker and then chamber the round. Upon extraction you might find the neck had been in a bit of a bind? Slug the throat if you haven't already. I'd be surprised if it'd take a .311" slug. Some of that lead you got may be from getting scraped off at the chamber end/throat edge.

That dacron could help, and I'd like to hear the results when you do it. If you fired 50 rounds in 10 shot groups and averaged 3.2" I'd say you were off to a good start. Especially with open sights. Keep us advised!

I have a K-31 around here someplace. I distinctly remember buying it :-) I think I may even have shot it once. :rolleyes:

...................Buckshot

[chuebner]

According to my notes:

Lee C309-200R 20gr 4198 1/4 sheet toilet paper, 2.5" group, 100yd., SR1 target. 6 o'clock hold with 200M sight setting. Bullet sized to .309 in Lee sizing die, tumble lube with liquid alox.

Lyman 311299 205gr. same load, same sight setting, roughly same group size.

Seating depth was determined by taking a prepared case with no powder, seating a bullet in case mouth and inserting in chamber. Bolt firmly and fully closed, eject round, measure OAL, back off .005. That is my OAL for that bullet. I use the same procedure for all my different cast bullets AND for each individual rifle. My two K31's have a difference of .025 in seating depth so I have to remember to mark my reloading label accordingly. Kinda rude to grab a rifle and box of ammo only to find out it chambers very hard or not at all.

Charlie

[aimlowsqueeze]

I load a Lyman 311041 sized @ .309 gas checked and lubed (186 grains)with 13 grains of Unique for my K31. OAL is 2.689" and requires a firm push on the bolt. Groups at 100yards are under 1.5". This barrel has only had 60 lead bullets pushed through it, so it hasn't even reached it's potential yet!

Try it, you'll like it.

[Bob S]

I've used the Lee 200 grain successfully in a Gew1911, which has quite a different chamber and throat than the K31; still 7.5 x 55, though. The regular .30 cal Lee moulds with their .298 "bore riding" forepart seem to do well in the Swiss rifles which usually have bore diameters of about .297~.298; I haven't found them to be useful for anything else. This is typical of the Gew1911. The white paster is 3/4", and that's what I used for an aiming point. I think you can read the data:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/LG1911_Lee_200A.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

I've used the Lee 200 grain successfully in a Gew1911, which has quite a different chamber and throat than the K31; still 7.5 x 55, though. The regular .30 cal Lee moulds with their .298 "bore riding" forepart seem to do well in the Swiss rifles which usually have bore diameters of about .297~.298; I haven't found them to be useful for anything else. This is typical of the Gew1911. The white paster is 3/4", and that's what I used for an aiming point. I think you can read the data:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/BobS1/Swiss/LG1911_Lee_200A.jpg

Resp'y,
Bob S.

ok technical note.....
1911 swiss is 7.5 x 55
k-31 swiss is 7.5 swiss.........
i hate being pickie , but the two are not the same...very close but not the same( boy i hope i got those in the right order....)

[Bob S]

Both are 7.5 x 55. The chambers are slightly different, and the chamber in the Sturmgewehre 57 is different yet. To the Swiss, they are all 7.5 x 55, and all were designed to shoot the same cartridge, GP-11. Other than a change to non-mercuric priming compound about 1950, and elimination of the wax ring about 1985, the ammunition is unchanged since its adoption in 1911. You can get the reamers and gauges for "K31 7.5 x 55" and "Gew 1911 7.5 x 55" from JGS Precision Tool, and they have invented their own creative names for them. CIP has no such nomenclature.

The chamber in my .223 Remington 788 is different from the chamber in my Armalite AR-15A2 NM, but they are still .223.


Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

Both are 7.5 x 55. The chambers are slightly different, and the chamber in the Sturmgewehre 57 is different yet. To the Swiss, they are all 7.5 x 55, and all were designed to shoot the same cartridge, GP-11. Other than a change to non-mercuric priming compound about 1950, and elimination of the wax ring about 1985, the ammunition is unchanged since its adoption in 1911. You can get the reamers and gauges for "K31 7.5 x 55" and "Gew 1911 7.5 x 55" from JGS Precision Tool, and they have invented their own creative names for them. CIP has no such nomenclature.

The chamber in my .223 Remington 788 is different from the chamber in my Armalite AR-15A2 NM, but they are still .223.


Resp'y,
Bob S.

the 788 remington is probably a 223 rem chamber,

and the armalite is most likely a
5.56x45 nato.....

they are not the same....and if you read armalites site on technical data they say the same thing.
sorry, but being "close"
is not correct in the reloading biz...as far as i'm concerned.

[Bob S]

The Armalite has a Wylde chamber.

Unless you are a national bench-rest record holder; or one who aspires to such, and you have custom dies made for each individual chamber, the differences are of no consequence.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[45 2.1]

Currently, we are seeing the "No Tech" approach in discussing like nominal chamberings. Everybody like it?

[StarMetal]

...and it's just wonderful [smilie=1:

Joe

[mike in co]

The Armalite has a Wylde chamber.

Unless you are a national bench-rest record holder; or one who aspires to such, and you have custom dies made for each individual chamber, the differences are of no consequence.

Resp'y,
Bob S.
not.....armalite offers nato in std bbls, match chambers in sst bbls......
and please note the safety warning....
TECHNICAL NOTE 45: 5.56 NATO vs SAAMI .223 REMINGTON CHAMBERS

BACKGROUND: We are often asked whether our rifles feature NATO (North Atlantic Treaty Organization) or SAAMI (Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) standard chambers, and whether it makes any difference.

FACTS:

.223 Remington (SAAMI standard) and 5.56mm (NATO standard) rifle chambers are almost identical. The difference is largely limited to the “freebore,” the cylindrical space in front of the case mouth, and the “lead” or “leade,” the the tapered region that eases the bullet into full engagement with the rifling. NATO and SAAMI cartridges can normally be used interchangeably with no problem.

The SAAMI chamber features less freebore and a tighter leade, which normally provide better bullet fit and match-grade accuracy than the NATO chamber. It is wonderfully suited to match bullets.

Millions of rounds of NATO ammunition have been fired safely in Eagle Arms' and ArmaLite’s SAAMI chambers over the past 15 years. Occasionally a non-standard round (of generally imported) ammunition will fit too tightly in the leade, and resistance to early bullet movement can cause elevated chamber pressures. These pressures are revealed by overly flattened or powder stains that reveal gasses leaking around the primer.

The first few rounds of ALL ammunition, from whatever source or lot, should be checked for pressure and other signs of defect before firing large quantities. If you have a problem, you can generally bet that the ammunition meets neither SAAMI nor NATO specifications.

ArmaLite has adopted a practice of using a special, modified SAAMI chambers in its stainless steel match barrels. This chamber is better for match use than the NATO chamber, but fires the NATO ammunition perfectly. We use the NATO chamber in all moly (phosphated) and chrome-lined barrels.

ArmaLite’s larger AR-10® rifles are all chambered with 7.62mm NATO chambers. .308 Winchester (SAAMI standard) ammunition functions perfectly in the 7.62mm chambers.

[StarMetal]

Normally on most AR15's the primers will look really really flat like too much pressure do to the design of the gas system and the timing of the bolt opening. Also do to softer commercial primers. This is one reason David Tubbs makes the weight device to fit in the rear portion of the carrier. I made my own and it does what he says, slows the unlock time down, eliminated the flat primers, and has a softer recoil.

Joe

[Bob S]

I'm not certain what came in the Armalite when it was new. Right now it has a Wylde chamber, which I know because I put it there. Others that I am familiar with are Derrick Martin's and the AMU-spec chamber. All are different from one another and none are SAAMI or NATO spec. We load for all with the same .223 Remington dies, paying attention to seating depth, case length, neck diameter and end-play of the cartridges, as anyone should do when reloading for any rifle.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[mike in co]

bob s,
7.5x55 aqnd 7.5 swiss
my interested in this is that when i started shooting my k-31, i could not find the correct sizing die. "everyone" said just use the lee/rcbs/hornady dies. i tried all three, returned 2, sold one. the problem was i'm shooting norma brass and a warm condom bullet load. none of those dies are correct for the k31, tho they will over size the brass enough to flop around in the chamber. this is not acceptable for my expensive norma brass. i did a bunch of investigating and guess what ?? long ago it was decided that there is enough of a difference in the 1911 and the k31 that they wouyld be designated as 7.5x55 for the 1911 and 7.5 swiss for the k-31. and even more good news....our friends at redding make 7.5 swiss dies.

there is a difference and if one expects to win, one should pay attention to the small details. in my first year of shooting the k-31, i developed a sub moa load, and placed 1st in our anual sniper match.......200yds, 199-11x.( i also placed 2nd and fourth..i shot three rifles in the match)

please note i call myself an ammo crafter..not a reloader. my ammo wins matches, ask 45nut.
no i'm not a worldclass benchrest shooter, but i shoot to win. i enjoy competition, but winning is fun. attention to detail makes winners.

this is not intended to be disrepectful, only a difference in how i approach shooting.

[Bob S]

Mike:

AFAIK, the only production dies made specifically for the K31 chamber are the new Redding dies, and they have only been available for about 2 years. I think Redding made a blunder when they gave the "new" dies the same stock number as the "old" dies that reduced the case to GP-11 dimensions, and then discontinued the "old" dies. There are lots of guys out there that got Redding dies for their K31 because all of the scribes and pharisees said they are the "only" dies that will work for the K31. Not so. For a guy who wants to do precision shooting with a K31, and understands the limitations, they make sense; for a guy that wants to reload for *all* of his 7.5 rifles, they are trouble. They have their place, but they should be identifiable as a separate entity.

FWIW, I use 284 brass reformed to 7.5 almost exclusively in the K31 because they fit the chamber better than anything else that has come down the pike so far: they are .005" fatter at the base than GP-11, so they center well in the chamber. I have several hundred rounds of Norma brass that I use now only for 7.5 x 53 (in the Gew 1889) or in gallery loads for the 7.5's. The odd-ball stuff (FNM, Graf's, &tc) I use in the Gew 1911, 96/11's and K11. When I FL resize, I use an ancient set of CH4D 7.5 x 55 dies that I have had for many years and many thousands of rounds. Most of the time for cast loads, I neck size, and use my favorite loading tool, the Ideal 310, with dies that I modified for 7.5 years ago.

My K31's are match-winners, too. I have won or placed in every match with them so far (knock on wood). I don't shoot any "rest" matches, though ... it's all over-the-course, long range prone, or CMP "as-issued".

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[Ken O]

This is an interesting thread. I have a case of GP-11 with the wax ring, and the bullets measures .303. I shoot it in military bolt matches also at 200 yards using the Garand course of fire. I was reloading 168 SMKs in Privi cases, and in the rapids, especially sitting, I had trouble getting the bolt completly closed. I'm thinking I'm going to have to seat them real deep so the 303 on the oglive will let the bolt shut easily. I have a threaded case ordered for the stoney point so I can see just where I'm at.
I shot the 311041 and at the short lines it works OK but not as good as the SMK. Tuesday I shot it in our clubs 600 yard match and the 168 did better than the GP-11, and the 311041 was all over the place, I had to put on the 700m yardage on the sights to keep it on the paper. The 168s I had the sights on 500m and used a 6 o'clock hold to get them in the 10 ring.
So... anyone have a good Mid-range (600 yard) CB that I should try, someone that has actually had good scores with it.

[Bear Claw]

I have also only used the redding dies ( I prefer them to others, better made ) I shoot a 311291 lyman C/B w/gc sized at .308 over 20gr of 2400 ( I realy like 2400 powder ) And average 1" or better at 100yds from a rest.

I found that with American jacketed boolits the ogive is slightly differant (longer) than the swiss bollit, and must be loaded a little deeper in the case to avoid problems closing the bolt

[RGRWJB]

Nice shooting!

[garandsrus]

Bear Claw,

The following is from the www.milsurpshooter.net forum, Straight Pull Section, in a post called K31 Load and was origionally posted by "Parashooter". This shows why you need to seat the SMK bullet to a shorter OAL than the GP11 bullet OAL:

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/garandsrus/k311.jpg

a - profile of GP11
b - normal US bullet seated deeper clears lands
c - US bullet seated to GP11 length jams K31 lands at Dd - but clears model 1911 lands shown at Ee.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/garandsrus/k312_1.jpg
K31 throat is designed for GP11 bullet. US bullet designed for US throats and bores must be seated much deeper in K31.

John

[C1PNR]

So this means I can seat the J-word bullet to a greater OAL in my K-11 than in the K-31? I suppose this is related to the different shape of the chamber, too.

Having to size brass with two different dies, one for K-31 and one for K-11, is kind of a hassle. Maybe I'll get some .284 brass for the K-11 so it's easier to tell them apart.

I suppose I'll have to trial and error with the boolits. Frankly, I think I'll probably stay with the real thing (home made boolits) with both K-11 and K-31.

Thanks for the schematic, BTW, I'll put it in my permanent files.

[Bob S]

Acheiveable OAL is related only to the throat dimensions and has nothing to do with the minute differences in the chamber body dimensions. The longer length acheivable in the 1911 series is one reason they are easier to load for than the K31, and one reason that they are easier to shoot really well with cast.

You don't *need* to have seperate dies for K31 and 1911-series rifles. Any brand except the new Redding will work perfectly well for either chamber. I have been using a pre-historic set of CH4D full-length sizing dies for many years with a few M1889s, several 1911 series and several K31's. I am approaching 30 firing/FL rsizing cycles on several lots of reformed 284 cases and have not "lost" a case yet. The theories about working the brass less and extended case life if you use the Reddng dies for K31 are fine theories, but don't pan out in reality. The differences in chamber dimensions are just enough to be PITA, not enough to affect brass life. If you were going to shoot "serious" bench rest with a K31, dies that resized closer to the chamber dimensions would make sense ... but then the K31 is not a serious bench rest rifle, and if you were a serious bench rest shooter, you'd get custom dies for *your* chamber, anyway.

Resp'y,
Bob S.