NOE 454424 in the .45 Auto Rim

[Dale53]

I was at the range again today and had an opportunity to chronograph the NOE 454424 bullet (250 grs) in my Model 625-6 (5" barrel).

Here is the load and results:



NOE 454424 in the .45 Auto Rim Case


7.0 grs of Unique


Fed 150 Primer


Starline Cases

1- 881.2
2- 944.2
3- 906.4
4- 899.2
5- 905.2
6- 908.1
7- 910.4
8- 931.2
9- 921.1
10- 911.1

Average 911.8
Hi – 944.2
Lo – 881.2
Extreme Spread – 63.0
Std Dev – 17.3


This puts the .45 Auto Rim in the same class as a factory .45 Colt with a considerably better shaped bullet. I would feel confident in deer hunting (with range limitations) with this combination. Elmer Keith used 7.5 grs of Unique and with my present lot of Unique, I would have NO problem in raising my load to 7.5 grs of Unique.



There have been some comments that NEW Unique is a bit faster. So, I would want to first chronograph a slower load before increasing to the full 7.5 grs of Unique with this bullet. I would suspect that 7.5 of MY present lot of Unique may raise the velocity to the neighborhood of 1000 fps. That is an excellent field load, IMHO.


FWIW
Dale53

[35remington]

What I have a great deal of problem reconciling is the amount of Unique deemed "safe" by some to use with the heavy 454424 clone in the small Auto Rim case.

I would myself never, ever, ever use that much Unique (7 to 7.5 grains) with the heavy 250 plus grain bullet in the small Auto Rim case, especially given my own results of comparable velocity with nearly a full GRAIN less powder than that using the Lyman 452424 (the original but .452" diameter version).

Moreover, 7.5 grains would easily be a ++P+ load in my own five inch 625-3.

I would strongly counsel anyone attempting to use Unique for the Auto Rim to start much, much below this level and slowly work up.

I don't dispute that ca. 900 fps with a 250 grain SWC is safe; what I dispute is the amount of Unique it will take to get there. I cannot explain the great variance in results obtained by Dale and myself, but will note it exists.

Also, consider that a +P load in 45 ACP pushes a 230 to 950 fps. A load of Unique obtaining ca. 1000 fps with a 250 grain bullet in the very similar capacity Auto Rim must be higher pressure yet. Also, consider that in my five in 1911's, 6.5 Unique with the 230 lead RN gets over 920 fps. Hmm. Revolver versus auto and the barrel/cylinder gap thing don't fully explain it. Nor does seating depth, as the 250 SWC doesn't seat less deeply than the 230 lead RN.

I don't dispute the validity of Dale's results in his gun; I do dispute its universal applicability, as my gun gets comparable velocity with MUCH less powder. At least, compared to the normal small charge weight as a percentage.

So, to repeat: Start low and work up, and don't think of duplicating these loads unless you have a chronograph to verify the actual velocity obtained! Please start at 6 grains or less, and chronograph before adding any more!

Dale, I'm not stepping on your toes and hope you do not take it as such. I'm just suggesting a heavy bullet in the small Auto Rim case deserves extra caution in working up the load, especially with the known tendency of small cases and heavy bullets to ramp pressures up greatly.

[Dale53]

35remington;
You will get NO guff from me for safety cautions.

One of the reasons I specifically stated "NOE 454424" is that Lyman from time to time has changed the design of the Keith bullet drastically. Casual looking, the different bullets often look the same but the seating depth is materially different. There was an excellent article in one of the major gun magazines that showed a couple of Lyman variations.

It is quite possible that my NOE bullet is materially different from YOUR version of the Lyman 452424.

Again, this is a good reason to ALWAYS question third party accounts.

Again, Lyman cast bullet data and SAAMI have materially different pressure limits for the Auto Rim case and the .45 ACP case even tho' they have essentially the same capacity. This is simply because the Ammunition Companies have always loaded the Auto Rim with soft lead bullets (swaged) and got serious leading if they drove them faster.

A good cast bullet can be driven the velocities that I have reported within proper pressure limits (the revolvers easily handle +P .45 ACP loads) without any suspicion of leading. Shoot those same loads with lead bullets furnished by the ammo companies and you have horrible leading. Been there and done that...

Stay safe, folks.

Here is a page from the Lyman Cast Bullet book:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/Qimg025.jpg

I would caution anyone reading this to NOT try to use this data in a 1917 revolver. The cylinders were not heat treated. The loads should only be used in S&W and Ruger revolvers made after 1950 or so.

Thosands of shooters have used these loads without issue.

Dale53

[ddixie884]

Many years ago, before I knew better, I used 7.5grs of Unique with the Lyman 454424 bullet. This was a less than disirable version of this bullet that weighed 262gr, and had a rnd grease groove. I used these loads in 1917 S&W, and Colts, as well as a .455 S&W with a shaved cylinder. I used these loads in AR, and ACP cases with a roll crimp, and Half moons. I no longer think this is a good idea in these old guns. However I never had any problems, and consider my 625s perfectly safe with BB .45 super loads. I do agree that all heavy loads should be worked up to in your own gun, and caution is the order of the day.

[Lloyd Smale]

I shoot simular loads out of my 625 but put the cap at 6.5 grains to keep from beating up the gun.

[GLL]

Whenever a discussion of the 454424 comes up I have to ask "WHICH ONE" ? :) The design has been all over the map through the years and the weight has been quite variable !

All of the bullets in this old photo are "454424". All but the bullet on the right are IDEAL or LYMAN products !!! The right hand bullet is the 45 2.1 Catshooter Group Buy. We could also add the NOE and BRP versions as well (both are very slight variations of the 45 2.1 design).

http://www.fototime.com/CDF186C1CB890DA/orig.jpg

Jerry

[45 2.1]

The right hand bullet is the 45 2.1 Catshooter Group Buy. We could also add the NOE and BRP versions as well (both are very slight variations of the 45 2.1 design). Jerry

The drawings sent to these folks were all the same (except maybe the BRP due to ogive radius parameters which actually should be unnoticeable; the band & GG arrangements were all the same), as per the original Catshooter GB. If the boolits are different, then the mold maker didn't cut them to spec.

[GLL]

45 2.1:

I should have underlined the "very slight" part ! :) :)

Your design is easily my favorite variation of the 454424 and the BRP moulds my favorite to cast with !

http://www.fototime.com/4D55F46BBADD39F/standard.jpg

Jerry

[9.3X62AL]

Dittoes to all the above commentary on the variances of Lyman/Ideal #454424. I own Ideal single-cavity and a much later Lyman double cavity editions of this design, and the two designs are noticeably and obviously different. Both shoot well, and don't vary as to point of impact downrange--but the variance still bugs me, and I segregated them until I shot off all the S/C products. I should sell the mould and its differing S/C counterpart in #454190, as one of those small de-complications of life as a caster and reloader. One of these days.

I do prefer the fat drive band versions. Sacrificing drive band integrity/strength to maximize lube capacity is a non-starter to me, esp. since we no longer use bacon fat or bear grease as bullet lube. Just sayin'.

[SwedeNelson]

The NOE version is fast becoming one of my favorites
in the auto rim.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i80/swedenelson/454424target002.jpg

Only shooting 6Gr. but it is nice to now I can run it
hotter if I want.

Swede Nelson

[grendelbane]

Looks like I may have to buy another pound of Unique. I finally got my 452423 mould in production. Nothing like getting an old friend back in action.

I have lost my notes from when I had this mould last. Memory tells me that I was using 7 grains of Unique, but we all know how reliable memory is. Some went through my M1917 Colt, and I definitely remember cutting those back to 6 grains.

I have a lot more Power Pistol than I do Unique. Power Pistol does so well in the .45 ACP, it intrigues me to want to try it in the AR case with the 452423.

The 454424 is fine, but I have a sentimental attraction to my 542423 mould.

[GLL]

grendelbane:

The older LYMAN 452423 is indeed a nice bullet for .45AutoRim !

I prefer to use the 45 2.1 designed 454423 Catshooter Group Buy version !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/FB16E1519926AD7/orig.jpg

[StrawHat]

grendelbane,

pm sent.

[Dale53]

The NOE 454424 is just a nice bullet for the .45 Auto Rim as well as the .45 Colt. I have not shot any game with mine, but based on past experience with similar bullets it will be a WINNER!

It shoots very well, and cuts a nice clean hole in a target. It makes it easy to score.

FWIW
Dale53

[Matt_G]

Looks like I may have to buy another pound of Unique. I finally got my 452423 mould in production. Nothing like getting an old friend back in action.

grendelbane,
Noticed that this was your first post on the forum.
Welcome to the madness! :drinks:

Ya know, Unique is such a great all around powder and does so many things well in so many different calibers, you should consider buying an 8 lb. keg of Unique rather than just one pound. Funds permitting of course...

Hmmm, just checked my powder stock. Looks like I need to take my own advice.
I have less than one pound here! :groner:

[Char-Gar]

I have used Keith's old load of 452423/7.5/Unique in either the AR or ACP case in S&W sixguns for well over 40 years with nary a problem. I have killed several deer with that load.

I have Pre-war Colt and Smith DA sixguns in 45 ACP but I would not shoot that load in them. I do shoot them in a pair of 1955 Target Models and a 5" 625. I don't think they batter the pistols one bit.

[StrawHat]

I have used Keith's old load of 452423/7.5/Unique in either the AR or ACP case in S&W sixguns for well over 40 years with nary a problem. I have killed several deer with that load.

I have Pre-war Colt and Smith DA sixguns in 45 ACP but I would not shoot that load in them. I do shoot them in a pair of 1955 Target Models and a 5" 625. I don't think they batter the pistols one bit.


Chargar

From your 1955 Models, what kind of veocity are you getting with the 423 boolit? I use that load in my 25-2 and a 4" N frame but do not have access to a chronograph.

Thanks.

[mike in co]

guys,
if you take his boolit weight, and his ave velocity mixed with bbl length(tricky with a revolver)
and throw the data in quick load , it says the pressure is around 15.5kpsi.

a safe load.

will this be the same in everyone's gun, of couse not.


i would like his oal for this load. and how easy did the cases come out ?

i had to bump case volume up to get the velocity to come down to his average.
i think he should throw out the first shot...maybe low due to cold clean bbl ?

if i take the set up as i have it, i can go to 7.4 for 17.3kpsi and 960 fps....rigth at MAX for the original gun/cartridge.

mike in co

[Dale53]

mike in co;
First of all, the cases ejected (all six at once, of course) without any resistance.

LOA in Starline Cases and the NOE 454424 bullet is 1.247". The seating depth is .320". The bullet weight is 253 grs (WW's + 2% tin).

It appears that Elmer Keith knew what he was doing, huh?! Since my 625 is rated for Plus P loads (23,000 psi) I will be putting no excess stress on my revolver if I used the 7.5 grs of Unique as a standard "heavy" load. Should be entirely safe.

As a matter of interest, I will be shooting these for field use only.

My standard range use will continue to be a MiHec H&G #68 Clone 200 gr bullet ahead of 4.0 grs of Bullseye (or equivalent from 7625, Titegroup, 231 or Red Dot).

The NOE bullet behind 7.0-7.5 grs of Unique will offer a great deal of versatility to the 625.

Dale53

[mike in co]

well when i throw in the new data, i can only go to 7.3 with std saami, but with 23k of plus p the 7.5 is only 18k at 960.....

was pretty close the first time.


looks good to me in a modern firearm.

mike in co

[Dale53]

Mike in co;
>>>looks got to me in a modern firearm.<<<

I presume that's just a typo and should read "looks GOOD to me in a modern firearm".

If so, then we are in perfect agreement.

I may or may not have mentioned - in a 625, this load has about the same felt recoil as a military .45 ACP load in a 1911. I would assume it's because of the greater weight of the revolver. At any rate, it should be an EXCELLENT load for Self defense as well as hunting. I believe it ranks up there with my .44 Special Skeeter loads in general all around use AND efficiency (Skeeter load is 7.5 grs of Unique behind a 250 gr Keith bullet sized .430"). It's funny how that works...

FWIW
Dale53

[excess650]

Dale,
I have a 4" 625 and it really liked 9.5gr Blue Dot under a LBT 250WFN. My BD is probably about 10 years old. Have you tried BD?

[Dale53]

excess650;
I have never tried Blue Dot even tho' it looks to be a very nice powder with heavy bullets in the .45 Auto Rim.

When I started loading for this I was a wee lad and followed "Elmer's" directions. Since Unique worked so well I never looked further (don't generally fix what isn't broken). I guess you could tag me with the "old school" label although that would not be entirely accurate.

FWIW
Dale53

[StrawHat]

It's not the 454424 or even a boolit but I just read an old article about someone using a 300 grain bullet and Unique in the 45 ACP!!!

[HotLead]

Hey Dale53,

That magazine article about the 454424 you talked about- was that the one in the June 2009 issue of Handloader magazine?

[Dale53]

HotLead;
Yes, it is on page 76 "Understanding the 454424" by Roger Smith. It bears reading by anyone who casts bullets for handguns.

Here is a picture of the NOE 454424 in Auto Rim cases:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/4DalesPistolsRevolversSelects-3336.jpg

Dale53

[hicard]

Where do you guys get 45 AR cases and what Dillon shellplate do you use? 41 Magnum?

[GLL]

I just got another 500 from Starline ! I know Dale uses Starline as well.
Order directly from them and get free shipping !

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

well, I am a little late with the answer, but 452423/7.5/Unique gives me 950 fps in a 4 " bbl Model 1955 and 1050 fps in the 6 inch version of the same.

Everybody bear in mind that Keith designed the 452423 for the 45 Auto Rim round and the heavier 454424 for the bigger 45 Colt round.

I have never used the heavier 454424 bullet in the 45 AR round and don't plan on doing that.

Skeeter once cracked the cylinder on a good old Colt 1917 using the heavier 454424 over 7.5/Unique load.

[Intel6]

Where do you guys get 45 AR cases and what Dillon shellplate do you use? 41 Magnum?

As others have said, brass from Starline.

The shellplate needed for the Dillon 550 is specific to the .45 AR and a .41 mag shell plate (shell plate # 6 and uses #1 pins) will not work. The 550 shellplate needed for the AR is an "H" shellplate and uses #4 pins.

Neal in AZ

[AnthonyB]

I used a 45 Colt shellplate turned upside down to load a few hundred ARs for a buddy.
Tony

[GLL]

As Chargar pointed out the 454423 is a very good choice for .45Auto Rim !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/F691E31B675E633/standard.jpg

[Dale53]

To all;
As GLL has suggested, I use Starline .45 Auto Rim (just recently took delivery of another 1000).

Elmer Keith also used the 454424 in the .45 Auto Rim. In fact, in his own page in the Lyman Handbook of Cast Bullets (the Reader's Digest size with the white plastic binding) he shows the same powder charges for both the 454423 and the 454424 bullets.

The "new" Unique is reputed to be a bit faster burning than the "old" Unique. I stop at 7.0 grs of Unique which gives me 900+ fps in my 5" 625 revolver.

Naturally, all of the safety caveats apply regarding powder charges in your gun.

By the way, the 1917 Smith and Colt revolvers had "tender" cylinders. They were not nearly so strong as the later (after 1950 S&W "N" frames). The later revolvers have heat treated cylinders.

I have often voiced concern about using the heavy loads in the 1917 revolvers. Those old revolvers are too precious to chance damage when they should shoot forever with more modest charges.

Dale53

[ddixie884]

well when i throw in the new data, i can only go to 7.3 with std saami, but with 23k of plus p the 7.5 is only 18k at 960.....

was pretty close the first time.


looks good to me in a modern firearm.

mike in co

Thanx for the Quick Load data........

[StrawHat]

Thanx for the Quick Load data........

Thank you for reviving this thread. It is good to read what loads others are using.

Kevin

[NYBushBro]

35remington;
You will get NO guff from me for safety cautions.

One of the reasons I specifically stated "NOE 454424" is that Lyman from time to time has changed the design of the Keith bullet drastically. Casual looking, the different bullets often look the same but the seating depth is materially different. There was an excellent article in one of the major gun magazines that showed a couple of Lyman variations.

It is quite possible that my NOE bullet is materially different from YOUR version of the Lyman 452424.

Again, this is a good reason to ALWAYS question third party accounts.

Again, Lyman cast bullet data and SAAMI have materially different pressure limits for the Auto Rim case and the .45 ACP case even tho' they have essentially the same capacity. This is simply because the Ammunition Companies have always loaded the Auto Rim with soft lead bullets (swaged) and got serious leading if they drove them faster.

A good cast bullet can be driven the velocities that I have reported within proper pressure limits (the revolvers easily handle +P .45 ACP loads) without any suspicion of leading. Shoot those same loads with lead bullets furnished by the ammo companies and you have horrible leading. Been there and done that...

Stay safe, folks.

Here is a page from the Lyman Cast Bullet book:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/Qimg025.jpg

I would caution anyone reading this to NOT try to use this data in a 1917 revolver. The cylinders were not heat treated. The loads should only be used in S&W and Ruger revolvers made after 1950 or so.

Thosands of shooters have used these loads without issue.

Dale53

294337

[Harter66]

The Speer #12 , and likely other editions , has an article Why Ballisticians get Grey . Although it's data Is particular to the 357 and 40 + revolvers it sheds a bright light on the curiosities of manufacturing minutiae . 1 chart example shows a 2" example faster than a 4" example .

I've loaded , in ACP brass , 5.5 Unique from my 1969 lot with over 800 fps with both an NOE and Lyman round groove examples of the 454424 . I now have a mountain of AR brass , all RP , to load maybe it will yield different results this time in the as factory August 1918 production 1917 S&W .

If I want to hot rod it I have an ACP cylinder for the Ruger .

On a completely different but related note I have hot loaded 45 S&W in an appropriately reamed 1917 after the 5.5 Unique loads delivered 750 from a 3.5" barrel . The 45 S&W is rated for only 14kpsi so hopping it up to 18-19 kpsi in a 21 kpsi gun is of zero danger and got me 900 fps , with under 7.0 .
Different guns , different powder lots .

Yeah I know , " no you didn't it isn't possible " , I may have heard that once or twice .

[NYBushBro]

A lot of those older reloading manuals used data for 45 Auto-Rim for use with BALLOON head cases. The newer Starline cases are SOLID head cases. Proceed accordingly.

[Char-Gar]

Lots of pics from an old Lyman manual with a pic of Keith and his loads. The younger set holds Keith in an exulted status and perhaps think his loads are something of holy writ. I would remind them that Keith was a self taught fellow who, in his mind, was never wrong and was happy to opine on all things gun related. Some of his loads are quite Giddy, pressure wise and none to safe. Consider him a significant voice from the past, but proceed with caution and do not follow his loading without consulting other sources.

[StrawHat]

Lots of pics from an old Lyman manual with a pic of Keith and his loads. The younger set holds Keith in an exulted status and perhaps think his loads are something of holy writ. I would remind them that Keith was a self taught fellow who, in his mind, was never wrong and was happy to opine on all things gun related. Some of his loads are quite Giddy, pressure wise and none to safe. Consider him a significant voice from the past, but proceed with caution and do not follow his loading without consulting other sources.

Great post Char-Gar!

I recall when they pressure tested “the” 44 Magnum load. A bit of an eye opener.

Of course EK did blow up more than a few revolvers.

Kevin

[Outpost75]

Speer manuals #9 and later have tested data for .45 Auto Rim with 250-260-grain bullets. They top out at 6.2 grains of Unique with the 250 grain lead SWC for 824 fps. I would not be inclined to exceed that. In the .45 ACP with 260-grain JHP max. is 6.4 Unique for 822 fps.

[Walks]

I use 5.5grs Unique under the N.O.E. version of the #452423 drops at 245grs from My alloy.

[Rapier]

My pin load in my 45 ACP Long Slide is a Lyman 45 Auto Rim that is supposed to be dropping 236 but actually drops 252g. Driving band set out 1/8” so it feeds, just sticks a bit at lock up. Like throwing a brick bat.
I have one pound frame weights, under the grips.