.45 ACP advice needed

[chrismetallica1]

Hi All,
I have been reloading for a couple years now. Mainly .44 mag and .44sp. However recently I picked up a couple .45 acp guns (Lee Enfield No4 and a Taurus). I picked up some brass and cast some .45acp 200 grain SWC bullets and did a little reloading.

200 grain cast bullet
Fedral brass
Winchester Primer
4.1 grains of Alliant Bullseye


The accuracy was great. However the cases came out black as coal. I havent had this happen with any of my .44 loads. I asked a few guys at the range. However .45acp isnt a popular calibre in the UK since the handgun ban back in 1997 so no one had any Ideas. I pulled a few rounds when I got home and checked the powder weight 4.1 grains bang on. Any Idea what I have done wrong?


This is a picture of the cases

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL480/4004437/22451063/385729967.jpg

There are no cracks or signs of over preasure. Just very very dirty. The soot wipes off but im sure it shoudlnt be like this.

The powder was new and the seal was intact when I opend it

PS.. Sorry if this is the wrong section for this question. I didnt know were to post it

[docone31]

A lead casting, recquires less pressure during firing than a jacketed load.
Less pressure, more carbon bypass.

[chrismetallica1]

Cheers for the info,
Glad to hear this is normal. Looks like I will be cleaning my guns more then. I didnt get as much soot with my .44 rounds. However the .44 mag ones were gas checked. I just picked up a couple of boxes of Sellier and Bellot 230 grain full metal jacket. I will load a box of them up and see what results I get with them.

[Char-Gar]

Yep.. Carbon blowback. Not a real concern, unless it just drives you nuts. You will always get some on the 45 ACP fired in an autopistol.

If you want to reduce it, make certain you have a good taper crimp on your loads and/or jack up the powder charge. With a 200 grain bullet you can go to 5/BE with no pressure problems. 4.5 to 4.7 grains works well.

[Dale53]

I commonly shoot 4.0 grs of Bullseye for target loads. Bullseye is consistent, no problem building accurate loads but it IS dirty. I just pretty much ignore it.

I do tumble my cases before loading (in a large Dillon vibratory tumbler). These days I shoot mostly .45 ACP revolvers (don't like to chase cases) and the whole revolver gets dirty as well as my hands. Both the revolver and hands clean easily and well:mrgreen:.

There are cleaner burning powders (depending on what is available for you in the UK). We normally have LOTS of choices but in the last couple of years powder AND primers have been in short supply.

Hodgdon Titegroup is a much cleaner burning powder and measures extremely well. I have an 8.0 lb keg of that ordered but really have no idea when it will get here. In the meantime, I am using up partial cans of "whatever" until I get the Titegroup. Don't feel bad for me, however, as I have an unopened 8lb keg of Red Dot (it's in the same class as Bullseye), so if worst comes to worst, I still have a couple of years powder supply going for me.

Dale53

[Windy City Kid]

Bullseye is very accurate powder, but very dirty and smokey.

If you want a very clean and accurate powder for .45 acp, try Winchester WST.

This is an excellent target load.

200gr. SWC with 4.3gr. of WST.

[DLCTEX]

+1 on upping the powder charge, the case is not expanding to seal the chamber. +1 also on getting a good crimp.

[chrismetallica1]

Cheers for the info guys,
I just loaded another batch up with 4.5 grains with the 200 grain lead bullets and another with 5 grains and a 230 grain FMJ.

Hopefully these should be a little better

[RayinNH]

Chris, 5 grains Bullseye with a 230 FMJ bullet has been the standard load for many moons. You should be able to use that with your 200 grain boolit with no trouble . In the Lyman 48th Ed. loading manual with one 200 gr. boolit (don't remember which one) they went as high as 6 grains for a velocity a little over 900 fps. Using 5-5.5 grains will be plenty safe and should clean things up considerably...Ray

[chrismetallica1]

Cheers again for the info. Hopefully these will do well in my .45 Lee Enfield. I still need to find the right load for my Taurus long barrel revolver though.

[Dale53]

Here is from the Hodgdon Powder site:







Main Area
Home

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Instructions: Select a Load Type and Cartridge, then click Get Data to view results. You may also filter by Manufacturer, Bullet Weight and Powder.
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Cartridge: 45 ACP
Load Type: Pistol
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
155 GR. CAST LSWC IMR 800-X .451" 1.230" 7.8 1019 13,600 CUP 8.5 1117 17,000 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC IMR SR 4756 .451" 1.230" 8.2 996 13,100 CUP 8.8 1108 17,200 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon HS-6 .451" 1.230" 9.0 988 12,000 CUP 10.0 1126 16,300 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester AutoComp .452" 1.230" 7.6 1006 13,700 CUP 8.2 1079 16,600 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.230" 6.5 1015 13,000 CUP 7.0 1135 16,700 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester WSF .451" 1.230" 7.1 934 11,600 CUP 7.9 1064 15,900 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester 231 .451" 1.230" 6.0 998 13,400 CUP 6.7 1112 17,100 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.230" 6.0 998 13,400 CUP 6.7 1112 17,100 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC IMR SR 7625 .451" 1.230" 7.0 941 11,800 CUP 7.7 1056 16,100 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC IMR PB .451" 1.230" 5.8 989 13,600 CUP 6.5 1095 17,500 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester WST .451" 1.230" 4.9 919 13,100 CUP 5.4 1017 16,700 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.230" 5.7 1039 14,300 CUP 6.2 1132 17,000 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC IMR 700-X .451" 1.230" 5.4 1004 13,500 CUP 6.0 1076 16,400 CUP
155 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.230" 4.9 1040 16,100 CUP 5.2 1082 17,700 CUP
180 GR. LFP Hodgdon Longshot .452" 1.140" 6.5 788 9,800 CUP 8.0 1015 16,900 CUP
180 GR. LFP IMR 800-X .452" 1.140" 7.2 925 13,100 CUP 8.0 1031 16,800 CUP
180 GR. LFP IMR SR 4756 .452" 1.140" 7.6 919 12,900 CUP 8.4 1047 16,900 CUP
180 GR. LFP Hodgdon HS-6 .452" 1.140" 7.8 805 10,900 CUP 9.0 961 16,600 CUP
180 GR. LFP Winchester AutoComp .452" 1.140" 6.8 903 12,800 CUP 7.6 1008 16,500 CUP
180 GR. LFP Hodgdon Universal .452" 1.140" 5.3 755 11,100 CUP 6.4 1019 17,600 CUP
180 GR. LFP Winchester WSF .452" 1.140" 6.6 887 12,200 CUP 7.3 1003 16,500 CUP
180 GR. LFP Winchester 231 .452" 1.140" 5.0 778 11,300 CUP 6.0 950 16,800 CUP
180 GR. LFP Hodgdon HP-38 .452" 1.140" 5.0 778 11,300 CUP 6.0 950 16,800 CUP
180 GR. LFP IMR SR 7625 .452" 1.140" 6.7 928 14,100 CUP 7.4 1024 17,800 CUP
180 GR. LFP IMR PB .452" 1.140" 5.4 885 12,900 CUP 6.0 976 16,300 CUP
180 GR. LFP Winchester WST .452" 1.140" 4.4 846 13,300 CUP 4.9 912 16,100 CUP
180 GR. LFP IMR Trail Boss .452" 1.140" 3.5 664 7,100 CUP 5.0 852 13,700 CUP
180 GR. LFP Hodgdon Titegroup .452" 1.140" 4.2 771 10,200 CUP 5.2 946 16,600 CUP
180 GR. LFP IMR 700-X .452" 1.140" 5.0 903 13,300 CUP 5.6 982 16,000 CUP
180 GR. LFP Hodgdon Clays .452" 1.140" 3.8 783 11,600 CUP 4.5 910 16,700 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon Longshot .451" 1.135" 7.2 919 11,300 CUP 8.2 1044 17,000 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC IMR 800-X .451" 1.135" 7.1 883 13,600 CUP 7.9 991 16,700 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC IMR SR 4756 .451" 1.135" 7.4 853 12,300 CUP 8.2 991 16,700 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon HS-6 .451" 1.135" 8.6 888 12,200 CUP 9.5 996 16,800 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Winchester AutoComp .451" 1.135" 6.7 856 12,600 CUP 7.4 958 16,200 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.135" 6.0 908 13,100 CUP 6.4 977 16,800 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Winchester WSF .451" 1.135" 6.8 886 13,400 CUP 7.5 981 17,400 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Winchester 231 .451" 1.135" 5.0 762 12,000 CUP 5.9 906 15,800 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.135" 5.0 762 12,000 CUP 5.9 906 15,800 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC IMR SR 7625 .451" 1.135" 6.8 890 14,800 CUP 7.3 970 16,500 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC IMR PB .451" 1.135" 5.2 804 11,400 CUP 5.8 935 16,200 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Winchester WST .451" 1.135" 4.4 794 14,100 CUP 4.9 866 16,500 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.135" 5.0 892 14,600 CUP 5.5 956 17,000 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC IMR 700-X .451" 1.135" 4.9 873 14,000 CUP 5.5 959 17,100 CUP
185 GR. HDY JSWC Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.135" 4.5 855 14,500 CUP 4.9 981 17,400 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR 800-X .451" 1.225" 6.9 861 12,200 CUP 7.7 958 15,700 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR SR 4756 .451" 1.225" 7.4 875 13,500 CUP 8.2 966 17,100 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon HS-6 .451" 1.225" 8.2 860 14,400 CUP 8.4 907 16,300 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester AutoComp .451" 1.225" 6.5 843 11,500 CUP 7.2 914 15,100 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.225" 5.8 889 13,900 CUP 6.3 962 16,800 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester WSF .451" 1.225" 6.0 870 15,200 CUP 6.7 970 19,400 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester 231 .451" 1.225" 4.4 771 11,000 CUP 5.6 914 16,900 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.225" 4.4 771 11,000 CUP 5.6 914 16,900 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR SR 7625 .451" 1.225" 6.2 836 13,000 CUP 6.9 952 17,200 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR PB .451" 1.225" 5.2 831 12,200 CUP 5.7 915 15,900 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Winchester WST .451" 1.225" 4.4 830 15,400 CUP 5.1 910 19,900 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR Trail Boss .451" 1.225" 3.5 652 9,200 CUP 5.5 816 16,100 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.225" 4.8 877 13,400 CUP 5.4 957 16,800 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC IMR 700-X .451" 1.225" 4.6 821 12,100 CUP 5.3 921 16,300 CUP
200 GR. CAST LSWC Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.225" 3.6 759 11,800 CUP 4.3 888 17,000 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon Longshot .451" 1.155" 7.0 918 13,300 CUP 7.8 1013 16,900 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP IMR 800-X .451" 1.155" 6.8 877 13,600 CUP 7.4 954 16,600 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP IMR SR 4756 .451" 1.155" 7.0 842 11,100 CUP 7.6 941 14,200 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon HS-6 .451" 1.155" 8.2 868 14,000 CUP 9.0 948 16,400 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Winchester AutoComp .451" 1.155" 6.4 856 12,600 CUP 7.0 930 16,000 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.155" 5.8 889 15,100 CUP 6.2 949 17,200 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Winchester WSF .451" 1.155" 6.1 807 12,500 CUP 6.8 929 16,700 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Winchester 231 .451" 1.155" 5.2 794 12,700 CUP 5.9 906 16,700 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.155" 5.2 794 12,700 CUP 5.9 906 16,700 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP IMR SR 7625 .451" 1.155" 6.0 861 13,600 CUP 6.6 941 17,100 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP IMR PB .451" 1.155" 5.0 798 12,800 CUP 5.5 873 16,100 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Winchester WST .451" 1.155" 4.6 789 15,900 CUP 5.1 898 17,500 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.155" 4.7 812 13,700 CUP 5.2 884 16,900 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP IMR 700-X .451" 1.155" 4.8 844 14,400 CUP 5.3 911 16,700 CUP
200 GR. SPR JHP Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.155" 3.9 714 15,200 CUP 4.3 785 17,700 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Longshot .451" 1.200" 6.3 848 14,100 CUP 6.8 908 17,200 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP IMR 800-X .451" 1.200" 6.3 817 13,300 CUP 7.0 900 16,900 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP IMR SR 4756 .451" 1.200" 6.4 762 12,900 CUP 7.0 867 16,500 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon HS-6 .451" 1.200" 8.0 790 14,400 CUP 8.2 825 15,400 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Winchester AutoComp .451" 1.200" 6.0 789 13,800 CUP 6.6 871 17,100 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Universal .451" 1.200" 5.1 716 11,800 CUP 5.6 844 16,800 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Winchester WSF .451" 1.200" 5.7 766 12,100 CUP 6.4 851 15,700 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Winchester 231 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon HP-38 .451" 1.200" 4.2 751 13,800 CUP 5.3 832 16,800 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP IMR SR 7625 .451" 1.200" 5.4 745 12,200 CUP 6.0 848 16,600 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP IMR PB .451" 1.200" 4.5 709 12,200 CUP 5.0 807 16,500 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Winchester WST .451" 1.200" 4.1 733 13,900 CUP 4.9 848 16,100 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Titegroup .451" 1.200" 4.4 744 15,000 CUP 4.8 818 16,700 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP IMR 700-X .451" 1.200" 4.4 758 12,700 CUP 4.9 842 16,600 CUP
230 GR. HDY FMJ FP Hodgdon Clays .451" 1.200" 3.7 670 15,900 CUP 4.0 732 17,000 CUP
230 GR. LRN Hodgdon Longshot .452" 1.200" 6.0 747 12,000 CUP 6.8 875 16,800 CUP
230 GR. LRN IMR 800-X .452" 1.200" 6.5 867 15,100 CUP 7.0 939 17,300 CUP
230 GR. LRN IMR SR 4756 .452" 1.200" 6.3 813 14,200 CUP 6.8 892 16,400 CUP
230 GR. LRN Hodgdon HS-6 .452" 1.200'' 7.0 751 12,900 CUP 8.0 859 16,600 CUP
230 GR. LRN Winchester AutoComp .452" 1.200" 6.1 832 13,700 CUP 6.6 896 16,400 CUP
230 GR. LRN Hodgdon Universal .452" 1.200" 4.5 703 11,400 CUP 5.4 857 16,800 CUP
230 GR. LRN Winchester WSF .452" 1.200" 5.8 832 14,500 CUP 6.3 892 16,800 CUP
230 GR. LRN Winchester 231 .452" 1.200" 4.3 699 12,200 CUP 5.3 834 16,900 CUP
230 GR. LRN Hodgdon HP-38 .452" 1.200" 4.3 699 12,200 CUP 5.3 834 16,900 CUP
230 GR. LRN IMR SR 7625 .452" 1.200" 5.5 828 15,100 CUP 6.0 897 17,300 CUP
230 GR. LRN IMR PB .452" 1.200" 4.2 736 11,600 CUP 4.7 833 15,900 CUP
230 GR. LRN Winchester WST .452" 1.200" 4.0 776 14,300 CUP 4.3 812 16,400 CUP
230 GR. LRN IMR Trail Boss .452" 1.200" 3.5 658 11,200 CUP 4.5 761 15,100 CUP
230 GR. LRN Hodgdon Titegroup .452" 1.200" 4.0 751 12,500 CUP 4.8 855 17,000 CUP
230 GR. LRN IMR 700-X .452" 1.200" 4.5 831 14,500 CUP 5.0 893 17,700 CUP
230 GR. LRN Hodgdon Clays .452" 1.200" 3.5 716 13,700 CUP 4.0 793 16,800 CUP
NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS
Hodgdon web site IMR Smokeless Powders web site Winchester Smokeless Propellants web site
www.hodgdon.com www.imrpowder.com www.wwpowder.com

[klcarroll]

Hey Chris

I noticed that in your orignial post you identified one of your .45 ACP weapons as a "Lee Enfield No. 4"

Am I correct in assuming that this is a Long Weapon??

My experience with fast powder light loads in long weapons has been that powders like Bullseye are "all done", and the internal pressure is on the way down BEFORE the round actually clears the muzzle.

....This general scenario could, depending on the length of your barrel, explain excessive carbon blow-by.

Kent

[Cherokee]

For your rifle, you might want to try a slower burning powder - but I don't know what is available to you in UK. HS-6 works good in my 7" long slide 1911. Winchester Super Target (WST) is a cleaner powder than Bullseye. My preference for general 45 ACP use is Winchester 231. The carbon on the case is because the pressure is insufficient to seal the case wall against the chamber.

[chrismetallica1]

Cheers for the info, My revolver has a 12" barrel to conform with UK law and the Rifle has a 16" barrel. I will try a slower burning powder and see how I get on

regards

Chris

[two bit okie]

I have loaded 45 auto since 1966. Got my first 45 for christmas as a junior in high school and been loading since 1967, and casting for it since 1968. I cast the lyman 230 gr rn, ahead of 6 grs unique. cases dont look new, but are not as bad as what you have it.

My 45 is straight gi, with lousy sights. ok to procect the hallway, but not on the target range.

[Echo]

+1 for the good taper crimp. A primer will knock a loosely-crimped boolit forward before the powder gets well lit, increasing the boiler room volume, reducing pressure. A good taper crimp could very likely reduce the sooting, and improve accuracy.

Twelve-inch bbl on the revolver, huh? Wyatt Earp would be proud.

[shotman]

You didnt post barrel length at first you could jump up to 6 or 7 in a long barrel if you want to use up the powder . Try the unique or the Russian {salio? spelling?} it may be easier to find there It is good for the 44 too

[sagacious]

Chris,
The carbon soot you see on your 45ACP cases is a textbook sign of a low-pressure situation. As other have said above, at lower pressures, the case does not seal tight to the chamber wall, and some gas/soot blows past the brass case. In some instances the soot will stubbornly stain the case and requires tumbling/soaking to remove. You may not have seen this condition when loading your 44Mag & 44Special ammo because the pressures are slightly higher in your reloads for those calibers. But, you definitely can have the exact same sooting happen to 44Mag cases if you decrease the prerssure enough.

In some instances, such as when shooting low-pressure ammo in pistol-caliber carbines, the gas blow-by escaping the firearm's action can soot the shooter's face-- and is generally very distracting. It's not usually a desireable situation.

The remedy is generally to increase the powder charge, while remaining within safe limits. This is not a problem in your instance, as an increase in your 4.0 Bullseye powder charge is easily possible. Lyman Handbook #47 shows a max of 5.0grs Bullseye for the 200gr lead bullet. Even a modest increase above your 4.0gr charge will raise pressures enough to reduce or largely eliminate the sooting.

There is no need to change to a slower powder. Slower powders are often used to give higher pressures, and so one might assume that it's the powder that makes the difference. In fact, one can experience the same sooting with slower powders if the pressures are kept to the same low level. Simply increase the Bullseye powder charge so that the case seals in the chamber adequately.

A clean chamber also helps reduce sooting when shooting lower-pressure rounds. Any soot/fouling in the chamber can increasingly interfere with the case/chamber seal, and allow more blow-by. When shooting low-pressure reloads, running a brush or patch through the chamber every 50 rounds or so will help on a temporary basis, but an increase of the powder charge will usually provide the long-term solution.

Hope this helps. Good shooting. :drinks:

[Fixxah]

Careful with the crimp when they headspace on the case mouth.

[375 RUM]

try 231 for a faster burn rate, my goldcup had the same problem

[StarMetal]

Don't believe what you hear about the crimp, that is they headspace on the case mouth. This has been gone over here on the forum way too much. There isn't a 45 acp case in existence that makes the length specification to start with. The right way to set up your 45acp ammo in the 1911 is to remove the barrel and use it for a overall cartridge length when you seat your bullet. When the case head is dead even with the face of the hood you got it right. The 1911 has a very very long reaching firing pin and besides many believe the extractor will head space it.

Also it was mentioned that 5.0 or 5.5 grains of Bullseye with the 200 grain bullets was the standard for the 45acp for many moons. Well not in my neck of the woods or not what I've heard, read, or seen at matchs. The norm I've seen is 4.0 (or slightly more).

Don't worry about the black on the cases. Just clean them.

[olderndirt]

Anyone have any pet loads for 30-30 lever 150-170 grain using Trail Boss powder?

[Shooter6br]

I run the round thur a Lee Crimp die.Then i check the loaded round thur a Dillon case gage. Eliminates 99.99% jams in both my Sig 250 and 1911

[Echo]

I only load 3.6 grs of BE for my house gun and wad gun, and, with a good taper crimp, get very little sooting. Like none...

And Chris, I assume you are using moon clips for your revolver - if so, headspace won't be the issue it is with autoloaders.