.45 cal vs. .50 cal

[rbstern]

My search for a 223 Rem break action landed me into a trade for a nearly new CVA Optima Elite with two Begera barrels: 223 Rem and .45 cal muzzleloader. Haven't shot either yet, but from what I've read, the Optima Elite is a good platform and the Begera barrels should be very accurate.

Having the .45 cal ML barrel leaves me with a dilemma. A couple of years ago I bought a Remington Genesis .50 cal ML. It's a gun I like for features, good handling, and decent accuracy. Here in GA, there is no prohibition against using a .45 cal ML during our primitive weapons season. Problem is, I'll only shoot a muzzleloader a handful of times a year, usually warming up for deer season. Don't really need two of 'em. I was thinking of selling or trading the Remington. My only hesitation is .45 cal ML performance on white tail. Most of my hunting is fairly close in. I don't expect shots of more than 100 yards in the woods I stalk.

Reading the 'net, I've seen every tale, from .45 cal projectiles bouncing off white tail hides, to .45 cal projeciles turning white tails into pre-made sausage. Looking for feedback on your experiences with .45 cal ML projectiles against un-armored white tails.

[peter nap]

It's all in where you put the shot..(I use a .58 btw)

Think of it this way. The majority of mountain rifles were .40 and they seemed to kill fine.

Most people consider the 45/70 a powerhouse even in the BP loadings.

Your .45 will shoot a tad flatter than my 58 or your 50.

[rbstern]

Pete, good points.

Was just looking at ballistics and energy tables for some 45 cal loadings. Even with standard charges of 100 grains Pyrodex, most bullet weights have around 2000 ft/lbs. of energy at the muzzle, and 1200 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards. Comparable to 30-30 at the same range. I'd shoot a 30-30 at 100 yards. Why not a 45 cal ML, where the bullet has already expanded to from .308 to .45 cal before leaving the factory? :)

[peter nap]

Pete, good points.

Was just looking at ballistics and energy tables for some 45 cal loadings. Even with standard charges of 100 grains Pyrodex, most bullet weights have around 2000 ft/lbs. of energy at the muzzle, and 1200 ft/lbs or more at 100 yards. Comparable to 30-30 at the same range. I'd shoot a 30-30 at 100 yards. Why not a 45 cal ML, where the bullet has already expanded to from .308 to .45 cal before leaving the factory? :)

That was my point:drinks:

I happen to like BIG guns...but I don't feel they're necessary to kill any better. As a matter of fact, I think they may be bad for newer shooters. Bigger boom and recoil and the idea that they will make up for poor shooting.

Don't tell anyone but my favorite Deer rifle is a 25/06 rven though I love my 45/70's:roll:

My .730 DDR spends a lot of time at the range and very little in the stand.

[frontier gander]

im trying a .45 cva kodiak pro right now. I shot this group last evening at 100 yards.

90gr Blackhorn209 - 300gr Powerbelt Platinum.
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/300%20plat%2045/000_0928.jpg

Short range targets ( under 100 yards) A big bullet will do a better job than a flimsy light weight bullet.

I'll be trying 100 and 110gr charges later on today.

[Uncle R.]

With round balls a 45 is pretty light for deer. Even a 50 is none too much for deer with round balls.
With conicals a 45 plenty for deer.
The question is - does it shoot conicals well?

[10 ga]

If you are shooting at standard BP and sub velocities the 50 is a much better gun. The 45 only gets better if shooting smokeless. The 50 has a MUCH wider selection of loadings, powder, boolits etc... than the 45. I think "Wakeman" has a good analysis of the differences between the two if you check his site.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_hype.htm
That gives a pretty good analysis. 10 ga

[pietro]

[I've seen every tale, from .45 cal projectiles bouncing off white tail hides, to .45 cal projeciles turning white tails into pre-made sausage. ]

I shot/hunted with a .45 T/C Cherokee for 23 years, before a good friend releived me of the ownership of it. ;)

IMO - Save the patched round balls (PRB) for target shooting and bouncing them off deer more than 50yds off the muzzle.

I used .45 T/C Maxi-Hunters with excellent results, but don't know about .45 saboted rounds (which use a jacketed .357 pistol bullet, IIRC).

.

[ktw]

Looking for feedback on your experiences with .45 cal ML projectiles against un-armored white tails.

I have shot 3 deer with the 45 caliber 128 grain round ball at ranges of 30 - 60 yards. All high lung shots. Didn't recover any balls, all passed through. Good blood trails. None went more than 100 yards. I'd pass on shots over 75 yards with it.

I have shot 2 deer with the Lee 45-200 REAL. Didn't recover the bullet from either one, both passed through. One shot at 75 yards (quartering away) and the other at 120 (broadside, high lung). Good blood trails. Neither went more than 50 yards.

The rifle is a 45 flintlock. Charges were 80-90 grains of FFFg blackpowder

A 50 or 54 would provide more "insurance" but I don't feel under-gunned with a 45 within ranges at which I can effectively shoot open sights.

-ktw

[jimb16]

I use a .50 cal flint with 75 grains of FFFg. Never had a deer get away. Shot placement.....I have yet to see a deer that a well placed shot bounced off.

[rbstern]

I'll only be shooting round balls at paper. Will be using Powerbelts for hunting loads.

Really appreciate the comments, all.

[Hanshi]

I've killed several deer from about 25 yards out to 75 yards and only recovered one ball. I use a flintlock and prb exclusively. All have been one shot kills with none of them going farther than a few yards. This is with a .440 prb and 80 grains of Goex 3f. I've killed many more with various .50s and can see little difference except that two of the deer taken with 50s were at 100 yards and a bit over that, respectively.

[roverboy]

I'll only be shooting round balls at paper. Will be using Powerbelts for hunting loads.

Really appreciate the comments, all.

You'll be ok. If you get good accuracy with the Powerbelts, they'll be fine. A .45 with conicals or something like the Powerbelts will work good.

[NickSS]

I have killed two white tails with a sub 50 cal ML. The first was shot with a 45 cal TC Hawken serial Number 99 with a single round ball through the brisket head on. The ball did not exit but was probably in the gut sack as I never found it but then I did not look real hard for it. The second was with a 40 cal flinter round ball and 60 gr FFFG it went clean through the chest and punctured both lungs. Both deer went less than 25 yards after being hit. Both shots were under 50 yards.

[GabbyM]

With a conical bullet as soon as you go past 40 grains of BP you've surpassed power level of the 44-40 lever action rifle round. Which was a 205 grain bullets over 40 grains BP.

I had very poor results using 440 ball the first two years using my 45 Hawkins. Didn't' know they had such a thing as a Maxi ball and am not sure it was out yet. At fifteen I was thinking more powder is a good thing. 100 grains of FFFG under a 440 ball pushes it 2080 fps. My lead was salvaged roofing lead. Now I'm pretty sure that ball was flattening out like a dollar coin then breaking up. If I'd of backed that charge off to something more sensible like 70 grains at 1773 fps results may have been better than four deer shot with one recovery. With the 220 grain TC Maxi ball it's a whole nother ball game. I lost that mould and now have the Lyman 245 grain Maxi , an RCBS #82100 280 gr hollow base Minie and the Lee 200 grain REAL. My powder flask spout drops 54 grains FFG and that's enough under the Minei. By the book 60 grains of FFFG pushes a 250 grain minie at 1375 fps. That RCBS Minie weighs 286 gains and is .805” long. Just picked that up last winter and haven't tried it in the 28 twist Hawken yet. Not sure if it will stabilize but according to the calculator it will so I have hopes. It's a big hunk of lead with a large meplat so with pure pb I'm sure it will expand dramatically. Measures .445” and drops right down the bore.

If a 250 or so grain lead bullet at around 1400 fps won't kill a deer one would have to wonder how a 44 mag pistol does it.

I don't know what the ideal velocity to shoot a pure lead conical bullet from a 45 would be. I'm convinced there is a chance to strike target at to high a velocity even with a 255 grain bullet. The Maxi balls have a pointy nose which may save them from turning into a washer on impact. In fact have a reputation for shooting straight through a deer without any apparent expansion. But you never know what scrap lead a fellow was shooting. We had a member from I believe OZ show pics of a 45-70 405 grain bullet cast from 30:1 fired at IIRC around 1300 fps. Recovered from a deer of some sort it had mushroomed half way down the bullet.

When you consider all the bullet variables it's no wonder we hear reports ranging from shockingly effective to failure with 45's. With a 50 caliber 370 grain maxi ball it's simply going to work. Just hard to mess that up.