Seating depth for PP boolit Q?

[barrabruce]

Does seating a pp boolit down this far.

1 O.k.
2 no good
3 Flaunting with danger

30-30 proposed load.

Be using ar2206h be pretty full to s100% load.

Thanks
Bruce

[docone31]

I have loaded with the bases below the shoulder. No issues.
However, how close to the rifleing is the ogive?

[rhbrink]

How about when you load a boolit like is it better to have a gas check or not? I have noticed looking back over several threads that seems most of the guys that are having good accuracy seem to be using gas checks. I was hoping that using a paper patch one could eliminate the gas checks.

[docone31]

You do not need a gas check.

[pdawg_shooter]

Loading below the shoulder is OK, no gas check needed, but I get my best accuracy when the patch is forced into the rifling a bit when chambering.

[barrabruce]

This is the seating depth to or just into the lands when patched with 2x printer paper and sized.
It may be a loaded a bees dick longer OAL but little.

The bullet is a very short round nose with a 0.2" flat point.
One of Heathy dee's original prototype PP moulds he has kindly gifted to me.

The bullet comes out of the mould a whisker smaller than MY rifles bore.

I've cast about 40 odd of these 180's to patch a few different ways and to see how it will shoot for me.

I may knurl a few also to bump up the core and see if it helps.

I will cut the patch off to measure any different in the core /bore diameter from before patching.

In a couple of weeks I should be able to to some testing.

There will be some printer paper, notebook paper jobbies to try.

I got this theory that the core should be bore or +1-2 thou after patching to help centre and guide the paper jacket though its course.
I may as usually be totally wrong :D:D


Bruce

[303Guy]

I got this theory that the core should be bore or +1-2 thou after patching to help centre and guide the paper jacket though its course.When you say "bore" do you mean 'groove'? The core should be bore plus one or two thou before patching and one or two thou over groove diameter after patching.

You say the boolit ogive just touches the rifling leade? Can they be 'forced' further in without getting stuck? Like if you were to seat them to the neck/shoulder junction? You've seen how far I can push my patched boolit into the rifling without them getting stuck and that's with a case that has been reloaded and fired several times with no neck sizing in-between. It was sized just once and fired. It has that much spring-back (and the boolit is that large).

So, we have to wait two weeks before you can do some tests. Dang!

[barrabruce]

Ahhh
To me you BORE a hole cut some GROOVES and you are left with LANDS

You cut a chamber for a case and projectile to sit in.Cutting through the lands and steel to form some sort of chamber.

To me the lands are where they are just discernible.
Where they appear after cutting the chamber.
Rounded tapered or what ever.
I don't believe they are part of any throat or free bore or what ever else one wants to call the bit from the case mouth section to the lands.

Whooo:veryconfu

Now If'n I reckon that when you are finished patching/ sizing doing your paper thing then the "core" should be bore +1-2 thou. To guide the bullet to stabilise the less than 100 bn hardness condom on its way.

At the moment the core is smaller than the bore. The core has a slight rearward taper which engraves the lands on the rear 1/8 ".Say a 1-2 thou.

The photo shows patched printer paper. Sized down with me shonky 0.309" die to be about 0.3095".

The thickness of the paper at the front orgave nose section hitting the lands pushed the projo back to where it is shown. I can extract it but if I use a too much powder they stick in the lands and need a whack with a cleaning rod instead of a gently push.

Iv'e had to size them 'cos they appear to be too fat to fit in at this point in time.

The fatter nose paper section with the printer paper seems to dictate how far I can seat out.
I've done some "folio writing paper" and they seat out further.

But still below the neck.

I'll do up some Printer paper ones and see how much I can stuff in the case before they are incompressible and still seat nicely.

Mind you I'll have to load a few at lower levels and work up to it.


[smilie=s:
Now my brain hurts :cry::cry::cry:

I'm just gunna try 'em out plain as cast first wrapped with these two papers and see how they go.

Unless there are other ideas????

Bruce

[barrabruce]

Right right ...the transition from the lands to the "throat" on this rifle is like a gutter curbing. not a nice slow tapery transition that would be I think be great for PP and Pb boolits.

I did knock this shoulder off a bit and put some sort of taper in it but it still has a bout a thou or two step to that.

I didn't want to open up the diameter of the "throat" any if I could.

This now has quite a few PP thou it and doesn't catch the or tear the patch like it first did.

My low velocity Pb loads are shooting MOA at 100 yrds last Sunday.
But unfortunately me me scope turret cap fell off and I didn't feel like going to 150-200 or more to see how they really preformed.

I may have to do a bore slug to see whats happening there and if its changed much.

I won't do anything about it till I can access a lathe to make up a proper honing tapered rod to fix it for good.[smilie=f:

Bruce

[303Guy]

It sounds to me (not from personal experience) that you're good to go with the loads that you show in the pic. Let the rifling leade seat the boolit as you chamber and shoot! (That system won't work for me as my rifle's leade is so very tapered with years of cordite use - 303 Lee Endfield).

[barrabruce]

Taking a leaf from Zeeks book about 2 nose diameter patching I knocked up a few more to test out.

Full patch sized down groove the the front section sized to bore to about the same length as the normal cast bullet driving bands.

1/2 ish patch same as above.
.Alox painted on the bear part of the nose if I need it or not.
You may be lucky enough to see the marks its left on them from seating in a not pristine cleaned chamber.



More to test out :veryconfu[smilie=s:

They may work.
I will see if the patch will cut on the nose or not

Barra
Not trying to re-event the wheel just trying to figure out how they made the first one work.

[RBak]

Loading below the shoulder is OK, no gas check needed, but I get my best accuracy when the patch is forced into the rifling a bit when chambering.

On barrabruce's first question, I think pdawg is pretty much right on the money.

In my own experience, "best accuracy" always comes from the patch just entering the rifling.... with the ideal overall length of the bullet ending at the base of the neck of the case.

I think the 30-30 lends itself to PP about as well as any cartridge out there. I'm sure there is exceptions to this depending on throat, leade, whatever but it just seems a natural with about any weight bullet.

My own 30-30, on a old mdl 24-V Savage, was the first 30-30 I ever patched for, and that was about 30 years ago.
It has been nothing but a sweet-heart, very cooperative since day one.
I guess you can just say it is very "forgiving" as you can't do much wrong when loading this old thing.

Russ...

[barrabruce]

:cry::cry:
Well I tried all sorts of things today.

My splattering analysis.
I couldn't even if I took this out out and juggled this one here or there make out any thing resembling a group. :(

The rounds all went off o.k.
The deep seated ones were not dramas or the half patch.


Hmm it seems the full length patch sized down nose seem to come off not as confetti but a big chunk.


Some where just a mist of paper.

The bore about 2-3 inches from the breach seems to have paper filler in it.

There was a tight spot when I cleaned it between tests.
The gook come out pretty well but I think I will have to try something else.

They did slam the target pretty hard thou.

:roll:And there I was thinking I was onto something.

Bugga

Barra

[barrabruce]

I have noticed that the printer paper I was using on a few bullets I didn't load have lost there nice shiney hard surface and had gone a bit soggy and pliable.
I don't know if its the temp and humidity or what.
The notepad paper ones are still hard.
Most testing was done with the printer paper and some with the notepad.

Hmm back to the drawing board on this one for me.

I Think I'll try some note pad paper on some lee 180's full wrap and half wrap with alox on the exposed nose.
Then size in a 0.309 die.
See how they go.

They where going boom thou with up to max Jacketed loads.

Maybe my alloy is too soft or the size of the core too small and they rattled a bit.
At least it will see if the core is too small...which I'm beliveing it may be.


3-4or 5" groups is not what I was after.

The built up of paper fouling (well I think that what is is may indicate I may have to lube the patch a tad.

All loads were seated into the lands or throat area.

Cheers
Barra

[303Guy]

I'm curious about the paper fouling. Also your printer paper turning 'soggy'. Have you tried any in a clean bore without the Alox. I'm wondering whether the Alox could be the problem.

I've been using a light rolling on the case lube pad with STP as a paper lube for sizing. The paper compresses quite hard and shiny. I've had no paper fouling. I have had patch failure resulting in leading. That was due to the roughness of the bore. That stopped after fire-lapping.

I also dry wrap the printer paper. That rquires a drop of glue on the overhanging skirt corner. This requires a twisting action in the fingers to tighten up the patch. For final testing I'll be doing wet wrapping without the glue but for noe there doesn't seem to be any problem with. The folded/crimped tail comes off the boolit as a sinlge piece, with or without the glue. I do have to have enough powder and velocity to disintegrate the patch. Too little and the patch stays in chunks or even whole. But then, my guns throat is different to yours.

[RBak]

It seems to me there was too much lube applied to that paper at some point. I can think of no reason whatsoever that the patch would suddenly turn soggy.

Having said that, I have to admit that I have never used "printer paper" for patching, and I didn't see the complete wrapping procedure of this from start to finish.
(I feel sure this paper has been used successfully for many thousands of rounds as I have heard of many others using it over the years).

Right now I use a mixture of 60% Vaseline, 40% Bees wax for final lubrication. I use that simply because a small jar was given to me a year or so back, and since it works, I just might have enough to last me the rest of my life.

Over the years, I have read here on this forum of others having paper build up. And although I've racked my feeble brain trying to figure out why that happened to them, and why I have never had a build up that I could see... it has always been a mystery in my mind because I was never affected by it.

Up until now, when 303 Guy just mentioned this, I never ever considered that reduced powder charges could possibly be the cause of this....especially since I never use "reduced" loads, and never really considered that others might be using them.....but now that it has been brought to light, IMO it sounds very reasonable.

Interesting reading...you guys just keep on hashing it out, and I'll just keep on taking notes.

Geesh! The things I've learned since I got my first computer! :drinks:

Russ...

[303Guy]

I'm not sure that reduced charges actually cause the paper build up but whatever it is a mistery to me. I have had a type of leading, somewhat unlike the leading one would normally expect. I wonder whether this 'paper' build up is actually a mixture of lead and paper pulp? What seems to me is that the patch 'fails' toward the end of the bore in that it wears out and lead starts to contact steel. But there is still some paper left and maybe this is what is being seen? I can understand my patches failing in my rifles bore since the bore is so rough. I have had partial patch failure in which the gap formed by the just not quite meeting ends is single layered and that leaves a ridge which shows shine - meaning the lead broke through the patch and contacted the bore in that area. I need to find a sample and post a pic of it!

Have a look at this link; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=76075

[barrabruce]

Well I'm trying again with a few different wraps. note book mainly with the 170 fp lee. The nose section on mine has been honed so it rides the bore and shoots well at low velocities just plain cast and lubed.

I've sized them down the drive bands notably to bore and wrapped.

Waiting to dry to finish. Some full length that will seat real deep and a few half patches to seat normal length.

I am using 28.3 AR 2206h which is not a reduced load. I went up to 30.5 grains which is listed max for 170 jacketed stuff. about 2100fps by the book or roughly that. 50-50 WW and PB air cooled.

The fouling was just in front of the throat. maybe a few lead gobules as well built up in the 5 shot strings.
Usually the first one shot off on a clean bore the next two closish and the last 2 wild.

I think it may have to do with the core from the mould not bore size.

The fouling may have been from the paper gripping the bore in that area or it took that far to bump up and stick,rub through or loose the plot completely.
Dunno what's happening there. Could have been lack of lube on the patch or patch not sticking on the bullet.

Buggered if I know.

Maybe my paper weren't dry enough or some such. But the note pat patches seemed to be harder than the printer paper after a few days.
The printer paper once sized was hard as a rock but the structure of the paper seems to have designated and gone flaky and back to a non hard but compressed state.
Maybe the break down in the paper may have cased it.
It wets easily and maybe I ended up with paper machee after the sizing.



I 'll try a few cig paper ones too as Iv'e had reasonable success with them but at lower velocity levels.

:roll:

How in the hell did I ever get myself involved in this stuff.

The more I learn the worse I gets!!!!

May just do a 150 grner if these longer things don't start behaving.


Barra

[303Guy]

How in the hell did I ever get myself involved in this stuff.Because it's difficult yet do-able. i.e. There's a light at the end of the tunnel and we know we can get to it! It's a challenge. Plus it's fun!:mrgreen:

[barrabruce]

Fun!!! Hell I spent half the day playing with this mould.
Honed it out a little and cast up a few.

Hmm found I can dry patch with notebook paper and seat the bullet.

Do I really need lube on the patches???

I tried 1 or grains of bullseye in a clean bore to see if I could lodge a bullet in the barrell and push out with my cleaning rod.
Duhhh it stuck about half way down. ended up bashing it out with the cleaning rod but buggered an adaptor I use for a different different brush.

Next attempt seeing I probably made the core bore size by bashing the ****e out of it; was to leave some oil in the barrell.

:) Just a pop and the bullet I could see (grey blur) went into the ground but I couldn't find it.(Ahh well saves bashing)
Recovered patch thou.

Wrapped another core but this time shot it into wet sand..went in about 6-7 inches at a range of 2 ft.

Recovered the patch and it did break up. I think when it hit the ground.
One of the patches was pretty well intact but on the verge of cutting through.
The other broke up into smaller chunks.Mostly long strips and a bit with the folded base on it.

Engraving on the core to near full length of patch.

Eureka!!! I thought.

It must bump up.

Checking the core with a mic and the core didn't change at all from what I could deduce.
The paper had marked the land marks.Teh core is to small for the bore in a far portion of it lenght.
Just a grey dull colour where the patch was and shiny lands marks.
I could tell by the blackness of the burnt powder residue from the previous shot that the patch was tapered in diameter to the front and a pretty good bearing surface.

Next I have re polished /honed it out some more. Till now I have the same length as my GC mould lengths groove diameter section but this just scratches the bore when I place it in the muzzle and push it in.

I'm gunna remelt some cores and load these up.

I think I'm just about on to it now.

Although next time at the range will most likely humble me again.

I'll "pop of another with the altered core to see if its improved it at all when I get time.
But I think a fair kick in its rrrr's instead a flick with a finger out to sort it out.

The core now over a fair contact area is 0.30185" which "just scratches a land mark.(2 light scratches per land.)
Patched =0.310" with 2x note pad dry wrapped.



Cheers
Bruce

[303Guy]

Sounds good. Looking forward to your test results!

[barrabruce]

Well the results of honing the core mould out to bore diameter helped a lot from what I can gather.
With 2x note paper they pretty well all went around the 2" at 100yrds.
These weren't flat out loads but in the 17-1800 fps range.
They grouped better than some gas checked loads.
And some factory ammo.

The big surprise was 50/50 Pb/ww ac 180gn lee fn sent along with 1.7-1.8 cc of Ar2206h (around 17-1800fps).
These grouped the tightest. They were sized down to .302 but wrapped only to the front of the driving bands, then aloxed. Much tighter than the gas checked same bullet /load combo's.

All seemed to go just right on the week-end and further load development will take place using more better cast cores and more attention to wraps and charges.
Still not to be sneezed at a 180gn softish big flat point bullet going 1800 fps.
Should do they job on pigs to 150 I guess.
I think velocity and accuracy will improve with more attention to details.

Better than the Factory 150 grns I tried (first Iv'e ever shot out of it)

Seems deep seating doesn't seem to hurt too much.
Far as ultimate accuracy I'm not certain....but it don't look to shabby from my rough as gusts testing.

Barra

[303Guy]

[smilie=w: Great news! :drinks:

Isn't that somewhat ground breaking? I mean, you have a semi-patched or paper gas checked boolit there. Holy cow!:holysheep That principle could have some serious applications.:idea: AR2206H too. I don't have any of that - yet. I have some AR2208 left over. Good powder but it looks just like AR2209 so I don't want it around - one wouldn't want to confuse the two:shock:

[barrabruce]

The Ar2206h is a fine log type powder.
Much finer than the other big log type stuff.
Seems to measure easier.


" I mean, you have a semi-patched or paper gas checked boolit there."

Think its been done before ...well everything else has!!!

I only fired 5.
4 into a group and the other at the 300yrd gong.
More testing will need to be done to see if it fouls up the bore or not.

My mold has the Lee 180 fn honed out so as the nose rides along its length in the bore.
When it was smaller it didn't shoot all that crash hot.

The wrap was up to the last bit of the band and when seated fills up the throat area of the chamber pretty well with the nose just scribing and resting on the lands for alaingment.

I will do some more with dacron filler to see what effect it has.

Barra