Can't get Win M94 to shoot

[hiram]

I have tried and tried. I can't get Win M94 to shoot the bullets I've tried. The barrel is clean.

I have tried 311291, Lee 150 FN, and the Lee group buy 150 3 crimp GC bullet. I have the Lyman 311284 and Lee 120 RN. I haven't tried these 2 yet.

If I get a good 3 shot group, I reshoot it the next time at the range, BUT, it flies apart--not repeatable.

I am using soft lube. Could that the problem? There is no leading.
The bore is .309, I began sizing .311 and now have switched yo .313. No problem in chambering ammunition.

Any ideas for the 311284 or Lee 120 RN? Maybe the M94 is not capable of shooting cast. Should I try J bullets?

[runfiverun]

the 94 should be one of the easiest to make shoot well with cast.
you shouldn't need to size over 310.
if you are using bore riding boolits the nose portion needs to fit also. [311284 i believe is]
my recipe's include the rcbs 150 fngc waterdropped ww's and a case full of h-414 [38-39 grs airc]
3031 does well,aa-2230 is my main powder right now[ @ 26 grs]
i have gone over 2300 with the slower powders but mainly stick right around 2k for general use.
the lbt lube should do fine, but you may be using too much of it.
and are getting lube purge,or the lube is hardening in the bore causing your next time issues.
you could swab the bore before hand and try a wet/damp bbl to start, or add a bit of b-wax to the blue and harden it up some.

[Echo]

I don't have a 94, but a thought comes to mind - are your boolits hard enough so that they are not swaged down in seating? In other words, have you pulled a seated boolit to check it's diameter after seating?

[StarMetal]

the 94 should be one of the easiest to make shoot well with cast.
you shouldn't need to size over 310.
if you are using bore riding boolits the nose portion needs to fit also. [311284 i believe is]
my recipe's include the rcbs 150 fngc waterdropped ww's and a case full of h-414 [38-39 grs airc]
3031 does well,aa-2230 is my main powder right now[ @ 26 grs]
i have gone over 2300 with the slower powders but mainly stick right around 2k for general use.
the lbt lube should do fine, but you may be using too much of it.
and are getting lube purge,or the lube is hardening in the bore causing your next time issues.
you could swab the bore before hand and try a wet/damp bbl to start, or add a bit of b-wax to the blue and harden it up some.

Run, I read his post over and over and don't see where he said it was using LBT Blue soft lube. Where did you get that from? Isn't contradictory you tell him his lube be getting hard in the bore when the gun sets and the next time out destroys the accuracy and yet you tell him to harden it up with some beeswax. I'm mixed up there.

You shouldn't have to size your bullet anymore then .002 over groove size, but the idea fit is fitting the throat if the chamber neck area will let you as you have stated it will let you load a .313 bullet. Personally I think the 311284 is on the heavy side for a 30-30 but it can be shot. You say the accuracy is gone the next day, but have you tried warming up the barrel with some warm up shots? How is it the next day if you cleaned the barrel the night before?

[GrizzLeeBear]

I think we need more info on your loads to be helpful.
For a .309 bore sizing to .311 should work fine.
What Alloy?
Powder and charge weight?
Which "soft" lube?

[shotman]

How fast are driving them?? would bet too fast. I use a 165gc at about 15-1700 in a savage 99 and open sights will do 2in at 100yds

[303Guy]

Would you happen to have pictures of your boolits and loaded rounds?

On the bore-ride; how do the noses fit into the muzzle?

You didn't mention whether you crimp or how you size your cases/case necks.

What's the twist rate of your rifle?

[hiram]

This is summary of what I shot. Most loads were crimped with Lee FCD. Some were crimped with the seater die.

I will check the nose fit in the barrel. I ordered a Ranch Dog mold from his current group buy.


3 sh grp load PDR
lee 150 3cr 0.375 26.0 748 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 0.375 15.5 2400 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 0.375 10.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
LEE 150FN 0.375 10.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 0.875 24.0 H4895 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.000 20.0 4198 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.125 15.5 2400 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.250 11.5 TB 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.250 7.5 TB 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.250 11.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.375 6.5 RED DOT 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.500 15.0 2400 50 yd
LEE 150FN 1.5 19.5 4198 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.500 15.0 4227 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.500 8.5 TB-#3shot? 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.625 22.0 4198 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.625 22.0 5744 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.625 16.0 H110 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.625 10.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.750 17.0 2400 50 yd
LEE 150FN 1.75 15.5 2400 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.75 21.5 4198 50 yd
LEE 150FN 1.75 26.0 WW 748 50 yd
311291 1.75 26.0 WW 748 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.875 19.5 4198 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.875 6.0 TB 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 1.875 10.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
311291 2 10.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 2 26.0 WW 748 50 yd
LEE 150FN 2.125 28.0 IMR 4895 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 2.250 18.0 5744 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 2.250 16.0 5744 50 yd
LEE 150FN 2.25 22.0 IMR 4198 50 yd
LEE 150FN 2.375 11.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
311291 2.5 15.5 2400 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 2.500 7.5 TB 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 2.500 11.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
311291 2.5 28.0 WW 748 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 2.625 24.0 IMR4895 50 yd
311291 2.635 28.0 IMR 4895 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 2.875 13.0 2400 50 yd
311291 3 19.5 4198 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 3.000 17.0 H110 50 yd
311291 3 11.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 3.125 14.5 4227 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 3.375 10.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
LEE 150FN 3.5 14.0 2400 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 4.000 34.5 748 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 4.125 6.5 TB 50 yd
311291 4.375 26.0 IMR 4064 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 6.875 20.0 5744 50 yd
lee 150 3cr 7.000 8.0 UNIQUE 50 yd
311291 9.375 22.0 IMR 4198 50 yd
311291 8.75 14.5 IMR 4227 100 yd
311291 1.75 18 IMR 4198 100 yd
311291 2 @ 2" 28 H 4895 100 yd 3RD SHOT OFF PAPER
311291 x 30 H 4895 100 yd WILD
311291 x 22 IMR 4198 100 yd 2 SHOTS OFF PAPER
311291 7.875 22 R7 100 yd
311291 6 30 IMR 4350 100 yd
311291 1/4/1900 28 WW 760 100 yd
311291 1/1/1900 25 IMR 3031 100 yd
311291 x 35 IMR 4064 100 yd 2 SHOTS OFF PAPER

[Blammer]

so you only try one charge wt and one powder with one bullet?

I'd try several charge wt's with the same powder and same bullet.

for example use the 311291 bullet
use IMR 3031 and try 3 or 4 different powder charges, like 24gr, 25gr, 26gr, etc...

You may want to make sure that your bullets, after being seated in the case are not being "sized" in the case. Load one per usual, then pull it out and measure the dia.

[303Guy]

Another trick is to hand seat the boolits without sizing and shoot singly. Just make sure the boolit cannot easily be pushed back into the case.

A load that is supposed to be good for the 30-30 is a full case of H4350 - IMR4350 should be about the same. That'll prevent the boolit being pushed in deeper. That load might require a heavier boolit to produce enough pressure.

[runfiverun]

joe
i read the soft blue and couldn't think of anybody else making a soft blue lube.
heck, i can only think of three maybe 4 blue lubes available commercially.
and only one soft one.
the reasoning for the harder lube is to keep it from hardening in the bore. by not leaving deposits or build up.
it's like adding carnuba, leaves the bore shiney and helps prevent a build up.
i'd drop the fcd completely.
neck size the cases.
pick a powder in the 1800 fps range with a g/c boolit and go up from there.
if you are getting the same results i'd look at a filler or the lube.

[GrizzLeeBear]

There are quite a few loads in your list that should have shot at least fairly well.

Does the gun have a scope on it? Have you checked the base and ring screws to make sure nothings loose? Have you tried a different scope on it?

Does the rifle shoot accurately with jacketed bullets?

[hiram]

I only neck size the cases and turned the necks for even thickness.

The groove diameter is .309 -- the bore would be .301--.303. I don't have the actual bore dimension--I am guesstimating. The 311291 nose is 301 and fits snugly. The 311284 is .300 and fits loose.

I changed scopes from a Bushell sportview to an old steel Weaver that is much clearer. The scope is tightly mounted.

I will try a series of loads in the 1800' range.

No info on jacketed bullets.

I will also try handseating without sizing.

Using Lyman #2.

[Buckshot]

................Your M94 may have a case of Levergunitis. I'm surely NOT an expert in rectifing that situation either! We had an old guy at the range years ago with a Marlin M94 in 357 mag and he tried all kinds of stuff to get it to shoot. Nothing seemed to work, cast OR jacketed.

He removed the handguard and magazine and it shot great. He messed around with it for a week or so and it turned out that a piece of pop can aluminum as a shim under the front barrel band took care of the issue. How he figured that would do it or what lead him to do it I've forgotten if I'd ever knew. He was a trained engineer, patient and methodical. I would have sold the dang thing:roll:

..............Buckshot

[44man]

................Your M94 may have a case of Levergunitis. I'm surely NOT an expert in rectifing that situation either! We had an old guy at the range years ago with a Marlin M94 in 357 mag and he tried all kinds of stuff to get it to shoot. Nothing seemed to work, cast OR jacketed.

He removed the handguard and magazine and it shot great. He messed around with it for a week or so and it turned out that a piece of pop can aluminum as a shim under the front barrel band took care of the issue. How he figured that would do it or what lead him to do it I've forgotten if I'd ever knew. He was a trained engineer, patient and methodical. I would have sold the dang thing:roll:

..............Buckshot
Yes, that would be interesting to find out. I don't know what it is with new lever guns.
I had an original Marlin, 1892 if I remember, in 25-20, that would shoot 3/4" groups with cast at 100. My brother-in-laws both had 32-20 rifles that shot great. For a while I had a WW 71 that I head shot chucks with at 100 using cast. All open sights too.
Then I bought a 35 REM in a Marlin micro groove and it shot 1/2" groups at 100 with a 4X scope using factory loads but it would not shoot cast at all. Knowing more today, I wish I still had it.
But all we read about today is how hard it is to shoot cast with a lever gun while the old guns just shot anything.
Even the Marlin 39A Mounty .22 I had was scary accurate. Shot as good as a 52 WW.
So my question will always be "What has changed?" Is it button rifling? Is it rifling too shallow?

[runfiverun]

it's fit. the forend, and tube play a big part in accuracy.
also where the gun sits on a front rest will alter where a levergun shoots.
if you wanna accurize a levergun the proper way is to float the bbl just like a bolt gun.
make sure the mag cap screw isn't jamming into the bbl,or if it's threaded have a dovetail cut there.
bbl bands on the front end need to let the bbl float too like in a enfield.
and the tension on the frame from the mag tube needs to be consistent from shot to shot.
you also want the front rest to be as close to the reciever as possible and consistent.
i have been pondering on which levergun i am gonna make into a single shot bench rifle for some time now and have it narrowed down to two 24" bbl'd 92's.
you can also re-work the trigger pull,the throw length on the lever and slick the actions.

[44man]

it's fit. the forend, and tube play a big part in accuracy.
also where the gun sits on a front rest will alter where a levergun shoots.
if you wanna accurize a levergun the proper way is to float the bbl just like a bolt gun.
make sure the mag cap screw isn't jamming into the bbl,or if it's threaded have a dovetail cut there.
bbl bands on the front end need to let the bbl float too like in a enfield.
and the tension on the frame from the mag tube needs to be consistent from shot to shot.
you also want the front rest to be as close to the reciever as possible and consistent.
i have been pondering on which levergun i am gonna make into a single shot bench rifle for some time now and have it narrowed down to two 24" bbl'd 92's.
you can also re-work the trigger pull,the throw length on the lever and slick the actions.
But all of my old guns were TIGHT. Hard as heck to remove parts. Forearms needed knocked loose, bands were all tight. I needed punches to take the apart.

[runfiverun]

they probably were tight fits.
but consistent tight, the forearm didn't hit and miss all the way down to the band.
the mag tube was tensioned tight,fit properly and wasn't pulling down or left.
if you look at an old long tang model 71, you'll see the dovetails under the forearm band and on the end of the bbl.
if the dovetail under the barell band comes loose or is tightened improperly you will have a wandering gun.

[Char-Gar]

I doubt if you have a load problem. Most likely it is a rifle problem, a shooter problem or a shooter expectation problem. Lets tackle them by the numbers.

1. Rifle Problem - Make certain all the screws that hold that thing together are tight. Loose screws will cause difficulties like you mention.

2. Shooter Problem - Leverguns are particular about how they are held and shot. Pull the butt tight into your shoulder, rest your hand on the sandbags and place the forend in your hand. Git a good grip on the forend and let it help full the rifle into your shoulder.

Make certain you load just one round at a time and that one into the chamber. You can load the magazine, but groups will open up and POI change as the weight of the tube changes and rounds shift to the rear.

Take two rifles with you to see if you are having an off day or an on day. If both rifles are bum, then you know you are having a bad day.

4. Expectations - You really didn't mention your group size. A good 94 carbine will deliver 3 to 4( MOA 5 shoot groups). There will be the occasional MOA group, but day in and day out 3 to 4 MOA is doing good. Lots of folks here report smaller groups, but I am talking day in day out, month in and month out, year end and year out groups. This is how we measure a rifle's accuracy, not the occasional "bragging group.

Good luck. A good 94 is a very good rifles with cast bullets. I have had exenstive experience ith 311291 and it is a first rate bullet. I like it over 14 to 15/2400 or 15 to 17 grains of 4749.

[OBXPilgrim]

My Win 94 44 mag (1972 vintage) sprayed bullets all over the place even single loaded when I first tried after buying from a pawn shop about 6-7 yrs ago. I figured it was the reason it was in the pawn shop.

I decided to take it apart & give it a good cleaning, figuring it was the forend causing the problem. The mag tube end screw (holds the cap in) had a screw that was way too long. After the screw bottomed out, it still had to go in about .150" in to tighten up. All that did was pry the tube away from the barrel & load it up with an upforce from the tube trying to return to position. Grinding & filing the end of the screw down to the point it would tighten up without bottoming out in the blind hole fixed it right up. It shoots very good now.

[hiram]

I'll get to the range with two loads. One will be a 150 gr bullet with 10gr of unique. The other will be 25gr of 3031 with the 311291.

Before I take it apart and shoot it without the mag tube and fore end, I will shoot with the fore end being held by me and my hand on the rest.

I like all the ideas--things that I didn't think of, but I'll try Chargar's first.

After the last episode with the 311291's, I commented to a club member that I think there was something wrong with the rifle.

I'll report back.

[fecmech]

My 94 experience is in .357 but it pretty much follows what Charger said for accuracy. Using plain base bullets and running up to about 1600 fps, 5 shot groups will average 3-4" at 100 yds. I generally shoot 10 shot groups and while shooting David R's postal was able to manage a couple 10 shot groups in the 3" range. That said normally in 10 shots there will be one or two zingers taking the group to 5-6" but 80-90% will be in 3-3.5" range. I do not weigh bullets, only visual sorting while casting and loading is done on a progressive loader. Good luck Hiram

[303Guy]

The only lever action I have played with was a Rossi Puma in 357. What's that a clone of? I recall getting stunning accuracy with it with boolits from a somewhat dinged mold. Vertical stinging of about 1 ½ inch and horizontal spread of about 2 boolit widths at as near to 100m as we could estimate. I put the vertical stringing down to the way the sun was glinting off the foresight. That was either a five or a seven shot string - don't remember now. Prolly only five. Possibly didn't want to risk spoiling the group with another shot!:bigsmyl2:

[Greg in Malad]

I had a M94 AE that had a tight spot in the bore about 2" from the chamber. Nothing would shoot good in that rifle.

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=303Guy;870741]The only lever action I have played with was a Rossi Puma in 357. What's that a clone of? QUOTE]

.............An 1892 Winchester.

............Buckshot

[scrapcan]

You might want to tell us more abouthe rifle also. Age, Carbine or rifle configuration, how was the scoe mounted ( scout mount can cause pressure in forearm not htere with open sights), etc..

The 30-30 is a wonder to use as an intro to shooting cast bullets. It will do well with a wide variety of types and weights. it is also very versatile at the velocity one wants to reach. It is not highly powder sensitive either. It is a great cast catridge.

A good place to start is to read the article on castpics about the 3030 under articles by members. I cannot give a link as we are now blocked from using some of the scritping for the website here at work.

You should also see if you can find a couple books.

one is the book of the 30-30 and the other is the book of the winchester model 94. There is a good section in one of them on accurizing the model 94. The other has a good section on using cast boolits in the 30-30.