DanWesson,UltraDot and LBT

[DanOH]

The last couple of years have been frustrating for me with iron sights on my 30 yr old DW 44VH.
Finally just decided to go ahead and mount a scope.
Per recomendations on various CASTBOOLIT threads I went with an UltraDot mounted on a weigand base.
There's a gunsmith down the street who set it up and boresighted it for me.
I have an LBT 320 LFN mold Veral made for me (back in '92 I believe) loaded over 18.5 grns of W820 with WLP Primer. Chronys about 1150 fps in this 6" barrel.

First group was way high but windage was good.
Cranked down on elevation screw...yuck, no clicks, just kinda mushed as it turned.
Shot second group, still high, so bunch more non-clicks down.
Third group, just about an inch low and just a smidge over 1 inch at 25 yards.
Best group I've gotten with this load in years.
With the red dot, it takes all the concentration/focusing on the front sight out of the equation. Just hold the dot still! I was amazed at how much the dot danced inside the 1 1/2" blue dot I was aiming at, even though I was shooting from a rollover prone position firmly planted on mother earth!
I had to take a picture of the revolver and target ....the bottom blue dot was the aiming point for all three groups in the photo.
range 25 yards...

[Coffeecup]

Can I pick your brain about that Dan? I'm shooting a similar one and just beginning working up loads. I'm somewhat familiar with my particular gun, having put 1 or 2K rounds through it (had to get rid of loads done for another revolver).

What other bullets have you tried in it? Loads and velocity levels? What were your accuracy expectations at 100 yards using iron sights?

My last batch of test loads were a Lee 240 at about 1050 fps (WW231) and the same bullet at about 1500 fps (AA#9). The light load stayed on a file card at 50 yards, the heavy load gave me about 4" for 10 shots at 100 yards (fired resting my wrists on the roof of my car.

Thanks,
Jim

[DanOH]

Jim,
I have never shot this revolver beyond 50 yds.With iron sights at 50 yds best I ever did (before the eyes started to fade)was with a 429421 lyman lynotype cast on top of w296 (don't remember grns)...5 shots into 1 3/4" seated on the ground with my hands clamped between my knees,back against a post.
You, my friend, sound like a heck of a fine shot with irons.
This DW always seems to like it hot.
Lee 200 lfp at about 1570 fps groups nice and tight also. That 240 lee you are shooting is screaming at 1500 fps out of a 6" bbl...

[44man]

The last couple of years have been frustrating for me with iron sights on my 30 yr old DW 44VH.
Finally just decided to go ahead and mount a scope.
Per recomendations on various CASTBOOLIT threads I went with an UltraDot mounted on a weigand base.
There's a gunsmith down the street who set it up and boresighted it for me.
I have an LBT 320 LFN mold Veral made for me (back in '92 I believe) loaded over 18.5 grns of W820 with WLP Primer. Chronys about 1150 fps in this 6" barrel.

First group was way high but windage was good.
Cranked down on elevation screw...yuck, no clicks, just kinda mushed as it turned.
Shot second group, still high, so bunch more non-clicks down.
Third group, just about an inch low and just a smidge over 1 inch at 25 yards.
Best group I've gotten with this load in years.
With the red dot, it takes all the concentration/focusing on the front sight out of the equation. Just hold the dot still! I was amazed at how much the dot danced inside the 1 1/2" blue dot I was aiming at, even though I was shooting from a rollover prone position firmly planted on mother earth!
I had to take a picture of the revolver and target ....the bottom blue dot was the aiming point for all three groups in the photo.
range 25 yards...
That LBT can do a lot better with 21.5 gr of 296 and a Federal 150 primer.
At least try a standard primer with the W820, you might get a big surprise.
Yes, clicks on red dots are very fine and hard to feel, nature of the beasts because of the size of the dials.
Now work with loads, I think you can duplicate that group at 50 or even 100 yards with the DW.
You made a good choice with the base and Ultra Dot.

[DanOH]

44man,
You really have my attention now.
I can see getting a 1" group at 50 yards as easlily being within the realm of possibility.
But please tell me how that is accomplished at 100 yards.
Like I said in my post, the 4moa dot was dancing inside the aiming spot at 25 yards and I couldn't get it to calm down. Just pulled the trigger when it looked right.
How do you make a handgun group 1" at 100 yrds?
thanks,
Dan

[Frank]

DanOH says
44man,
You really have my attention now.
I can see getting a 1" group at 50 yards as easlily being within the realm of possibility.
But please tell me how that is accomplished at 100 yards.
Like I said in my post, the 4moa dot was dancing inside the aiming spot at 25 yards and I couldn't get it to calm down. Just pulled the trigger when it looked right.
How do you make a handgun group 1" at 100 yrds?
thanks,
Dan
Get a can and attach it to a target. Put the dot on the can.

.475 BFR. Top right, sighter. Adjust, 5-shots into the can.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2054

[Coffeecup]

Dan, at best I am only a "fair" pistol shot; I've been fortunate to have some good teachers and mentors over the years. My revolver, on the other hand, is about as dimensionally-perfect as I could expect for a production gun.

It does sound like hot loads are the way to go for best accuracy. I'll get some load development done before fall.

I've not used a red dot sight, and don't know if this will work, but I did once use an old German rifle scope that had a big dot (maybe 6-8 MOA?) in the center of the reticle. The only way I could get a decent group with it was to use a 6 o'clock hold, balancing the target center on the dot. This is the same thing Frank is suggesting--sight the dot on something repeatable instead of on a target that is covered by the dot.

Jim

[fecmech]

When using a dot sight for group shooting I find it best to turn the dot brightness down to where you can just see the dot, almost looking through it. That gives me the best definition on the target.
I use a black bullseye that is bigger than the dot at the range I'm shooting at . With a bright dot it is difficult to get sharp edges on the dot outline and therefore harder to keep it centered on the bull. Hope this helps

[Frank]

That was, by the way, Creedmore, but you can also shoot steady off bags, front and rear. That should be pretty comfortable with a 44, off the bench. Just rest the front barrel on a bag and use a firm rear bag. The 475 isn't something you want to shoot too much off the bench. I only do it for sighting in a load.

I hear polar sticks are good. Most game supposably in Africa are taken standing with sticks.

[DanOH]

Thanks for the input, there is a learning curve with the dot, need to dial it back maybe.
I have been reading this:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=21598

Gonna work on 50 yrds next...

[missionary5155]

Good morning
There are some tricks you might try with your Dan.
Is the grip screw tight ? Is the wood grip well fitted to the grip spud ? I know fellers that bed the grip to the spud. Just like an action bed job.
Check your barrel forcing cone. Is it dinged, full of lead ? Be sure it is CLEAN. If it needs rethroated do it. I think the long tapered throat has an advantage out at 200 meters.
Barrel gap... I use the least possible barrel gap. I use a .001 feeler guage and screw the barrel onto the guage. Snug fit. Remove guage and see if the barrel will still turn freely. I have .357, 41 Mag and a 375 / 414Supermag and this works well with all 4 and every other Dan I have helped. If the barrel hangs unscrew 1/16 turns until free. If barrel spins free with the guage removed I insert barrel 1/16 tun until it touches then back out 1/16. Now you have MINIMUM Barrel gap.
BARREL TENSION All my Dan´s like firm Barrel tension. I crank the barrel nut down until I feel " That´s tight" then check fire. If my revolver will not shoot any load better than 1Inch at 25 yards then maybe it is the load but maybe the barel is not tight . IF the barrel is tight then it is the load. But after finding the best load for that boolit weight try playing with barrel tension. LOOSE is NEVER good. But sometimes just another tweek on the nut will really make a difference.
I have always been able to shoot better CREEDMORE style. Use the bench to find a good load then try getting your body on good ol dirt. If you are not in descent physical shape to do so.. OH Well. We pay the price in many ways for who we abuse the only body we get in life.
My Dan Wessons all shoot best with heavy for caliber loaded fast. 357 180+ 375 255+ 41 mag and 414 SM 260+ pushed as fast as I can tolerate.
So that is what I have learned over the years starting in 1978. If a Dan will not shoot as good as a rifle then find out why.

[fourarmed]

The missionary is correct about heavy cast boolits loaded hot. I like H-110 in my DW .41. Sunday I shot my first revolver silhouette entry of the year, and missed two turkeys for a 38x40. My turkey/ram load is a 270gr. gas check bullet ahead of 18gr of H-110. I use CCI magnum primers, but will be working up a new load with a 280gr LBT LFN, and I plan to try 44man's suggestion of standard primers.

[44man]

Frank is doing very, very good and is showing that the target you use with a red dot is very important. But oh my gosh, are they great for hunting.
The DW when made at the right time is a super gun. The barrel nut is a pain but I found how to remove and tighten it very easy. Put a hose in the forcing cone with a funnel on the other end. Pour boiling water through it and the nut will come right off. Never try to force it loose as you will only ruin the nut.
With the barrel hot, do not tighten it super tight, just snug it or put it on cold so it is easy to remove with a hot barrel.
To shoot groups I put the end of the barrel on a bag and the butt on another. You can hold dead steady that way but the rear bag must have the same tension for every shot. Loose sand and then tight sand will make shots string up and down.
This is what you can do with a revolver at 50 and 100 yards. I was sighting for deer, two groups, one is 5/8" and the other is 5/16" at 50 yards. There is 5 shots through the hole in the top of the can at 100.

[DanOH]

well I tried a few different loads at 50 yds and lets just say I was humbled...
Y'all have given me quite a list of things to play with...thanks...
here's the best I could do at 50 an believe me I aint gonna show the worst...

[DanOH]

Just got done cleaning 'er up and decided to go ahead and cinch down the barrel/cylinder gap
as per missionary's suggestion. I loosened the shroud and screwed in the barrel using a boolit shoved into the rifling so as not to remove the shroud and dot mount.
Guess I can assume that all the chrony load data and red dot zero are gonna be different now?

[44man]

Just got done cleaning 'er up and decided to go ahead and cinch down the barrel/cylinder gap
as per missionary's suggestion. I loosened the shroud and screwed in the barrel using a boolit shoved into the rifling so as not to remove the shroud and dot mount.
Guess I can assume that all the chrony load data and red dot zero are gonna be different now?
It shouldn't change but you want a little tension on the barrel. It was and still is a very good system.

[fourarmed]

When setting the cylinder gap, be sure and rotate the cylinder completely. It is common to find one spot that gives the smallest gap. If you set it tight at the biggest gap, it won't turn.

[44man]

When setting the cylinder gap, be sure and rotate the cylinder completely. It is common to find one spot that gives the smallest gap. If you set it tight at the biggest gap, it won't turn.
Only true with the bad times of production. Cylinder fronts would wobble. They were not faced square. A very good gun that seen all kinds of problems with new owners.