I just have to ask?????

[Freightman]

What constitutes a group? I was at the range and a fellow came and shot TWO rounds and said" that is a great group" I was under the impression a group in shooting was at least five shots and preferably ten to tell if the load is grouping. I could be wrong and am most of the time.
If two is I can most of the time put the first two close to the same place it is the third through ten that get me. So if two is a group I am going to Bragg a little more. Shoot I can do a one hole group if I don't shoot another round Ha I am becoming famous in my own mind HA

[Trey45]

I'm in the "it takes 10 shots to make a group" crowd.

On a side note, I can shoot sub moa 500 yard one shot groups all day long.

[Bad Water Bill]

The voices keep telling me I am WORLD FAMOUS. Who am I to argue?:grin:

[danski26]

People bragg about all sorts of thing when talking about there shooting. Some use low number of shots per group to bragg, some shoot closer to the target than "normal" while others "call" flyers to exclude from there groups. Others still shoot fifty, five shot groups, until they get a tiny group, then take that group, cut it out and stick it in there wallet to save for bragging time. Taking pictures of your target with stratigicly placed objects on the target or cropped to exclude wild shots is another trick of these braggarts.

When someone braggs about some measurment in group shooting I think about whether what they are claiming is statisticly significant and if there method is scientificly sound. Then when I make my conclusion........i smile, nod and say "wow thats wonderful" and continue what i am doing.

[Freightman]

I recon the old saying is a man will lie about two things but it may be three his gas mileage his groups and I will leave the other up to you.

[44fanatic]

3 is a group to me for sighting a scope, after that it is 5.

[knifemaker]

Just about everybody has their own requirments on what is needed for a "group" on their rifles.
As for me, on a big game rifle, I only require three shots for my groups. I am most interested in where that first cold barrel shot is going to hit and the two following shots. Reason for this, I have seen very few big game animals that will remain in the country to allow you get more then three shots at them. I will group the rifle several times before the hunt looking most at that first shot to see if it has changed when firing that cold barrel shot that will repricate my first shot at the game animal.

On a varmint rifle that i may use over a P-dog town, I would want at least a 5 shot group or even a 10 shot group to see if the rifle stays accurate with a hot barrel. Simple reason you may be firing enough shots at P-dogs that will heat up your barrel and you need to know if the gun will make that 200-300 yard shot while heated up.

Instead of shooting a 10 shot group out of a big game at one sitting. I would prefer to shoot 3 groups of 3 shots that will be more in line what is needed in the field. It saves ammo for the guy who is on a tight budget and he has confidence his first cold barrel shot should be on to bring that animal down clean. Just my own personal choice, everybody is intitled to what suits them.

[waksupi]

Standard for testing cast boolit loads is ten shots.

Five to test the load, and five to test the man!

[Blammer]

I like 5 shot groups myself, no called flyers and go from there.

I have shot many 10 shot groups but I like 5 because then you can get 10 test loads in a batch of 50 rounds. :)

[mooman76]

One is the smallest group. I always get good groups!:bigsmyl2:

Seriously I think 3 is the minumum. You always tend to get that triangle affect. 5 or more is better for more serious work. I mean how can you tell with two? Your first couple shots move to some degree anyway because of fowling and the barrel warming. It's really up to the individual unless he is in some sort of competition.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Saying you have a "group" with two shots is about like saying two telephone poles are in line.

Yep, they sure are, always. But add the third pole and now what do you have.

I am not in competition, so that probably effects my answer.

I used to always shoot 5 shots while testing loads, but for the last few years, have gone to 3 shots.

This is partly due to the cost of premimum quality bullets I hunt with, but also because of the fact that I found I was getting as much usable information with 3 shots as I was with 5.

Again, some of you folk need not get your tail in a knot as I've already stated I am not in competition.

I like my hunting rifles to shoot close to the "magical moa" if at all possible, but for a hunting rifle, 3 shots for each group in a test series give plenty of info.

The load either shoots well or it doesn't.

Which, is even more revelant considering I do not recall the last time I shot a second shot at a critter.

In a series of test loads, all with the same powder/primer/cases/bullet with only the powder charge changing, it is very easy to track which loads need to be rejected or revisited.

Now, with my move towards shooting a 45/70 with my own cast bullets am I going to have the same results?

Time will tell, but that is how I have started.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Recluse]

I like 5 shot groups myself, no called flyers and go from there.

+1

Five shots constitute a group for me for the long-guns. Unlike testing for handguns, I always sandbag the rifles when testing loads. I can (occasionally) live with one flyer out of that five shot group; if the other four shots are close/touching/consistent, then I'll go back and duplicate that load, but with six to ten shots and see where I go from there.

I use five shot groups as a matter of economy. When working up loads, I'll load up five, write all my details down on a 3 x 5 notecard, and then drop the notecard and the rounds in a ziploc baggie.

If the loads are no good, then I've only waste five units of components rather than ten. If the loads have potential, then I can invest in loading more and then working to refine the loads.

:coffee:

[BarryinIN]

I like to shoot however many the gun holds, within reason.

With most bolt actions, that's five rounds. With most revolvers, I shoot a six round group. With the 1911, I shoot eight. Etc and so on.

When it comes to hi-cap guns I usually draw the line at ten, if not five.
When testing a Browning HiPower, I will sometimes shoot 13, but usually ten.

Obviously, single shots are exempt from my peculiar methods.

I will call a flyer IF I call it when shooting, not after seeing the target. If I yank one, I yank one, and I'm not going to hold the gun accountable.
If I do call one (or more), I make a note of it before looking at the target. I'll write down that the fourth shot went to 5:00 or whatever. Otherwise, it's easy to get to the target and say "That must be the one" when seeing one out of the group- maybe that wasn't the one.

Another VERY important figure, if not more important, is keeping track of where the first shot goes every range trip.
With rifles that I shoot the same ammo through (or close), each time I shoot it, I will make a note of where the first shot hits. Over time, a pattern forms and I might see that a rifle stays within X distance from the point of aim all the time. Another rifle might make smaller groups, but puts those groups in a different place each time. The second rifle might be more accurate by most measures, but I'd rather have the second one for most uses.

[DLCTEX]

A 5 shot group was all I needed this evening from a Marlin Guide Gun and RD 460-420 ahead of a stiff charge of 3031.:sad: The RD 460-350 ahead of SR 4759 was much more pleasant. I prefer 5 shot groups for testing accuracy.

[crabo]

With revolvers, it is every hole, autos the magazine full up to 10, and rifles 5. 22s get 10 shots with whether pistol or rifle.

I have shot too many good 3 shots from a revolver to have the last 3 blow it open. I automatically dismiss a revolver with a 3 shot group.

The other criteria is if I can't repeat it, then it isn't a justifed group.

I really like Waksupi's statement, "Five to test the load, and five to test the man!" I'll do 2 cylinders full sometimes just to keep me honest.

[Doc Highwall]

When we measure our groups that are three, five, or ten shots for group size we always measure the two that are farthest apart so only two count. Statistically would we get more useful data from a hundred shots that were fired at once and use the two farthest shots only or how about two fifty shot groups and only four shoots counting. We could shoot ten shot groups ten times or five shot groups twenty times for one hundred shots. I have thought about two shot groups, but still shoot the one hundred shots for fifty data inputs. Hopefully somebody here with a good back ground in statistics could shed some light on this. I now shoot five shot groups for bench-rest, but for prone shooting I use twenty or forty shots like I shoot in competition as stamina also plays a part.

[Houndog]

I like 5 shot groups with a 5 group agregate to determine what ol betsy's doing

[HeavyMetal]

An interseting note here is that many custom rifle makers use the three round group for there garontees.

Got no problem with that, however I side with Blammer on this one! I to use 5 shots because it helps me keep track of the rounds in my ammo box!

When I run the chrony it's 10 rounds beacuse it's easier to do the math and it helps with averaging velocity and energy.

Seen enough guys that are so busy trying to fool themselves at the range that I quite worrying about some time in the 60's, and this will go for your two shot guy as well!

Life's to short to deal, or argue, with that type of mentality.

Nod yer head, pat him on the back, pick up his empties if you can, and laugh like all get out when you get home!

[runfiverun]

i like 7 shots in a group and called flyers.
i also like to track my hunting rifles over time,and will re-shoot the same target over an entire year.
3 shots on target over and over again, usually for a total of 36 shots.
i shoot the same [7 shot] cast load in cold and heat and compare target sets.
i like consistancy especially when looking for the rifles load.
instead of chasing groups i like consistant group sizes. if it shoots january/july groups that are the same or comparable i am happy.

[jcwit]

For center fire with my own reloads, 5 rounds no called fliers.

For .22 rimfire, 5 rounds with called flyers, reason, I have no control over the loading of the bullet.

[Char-Gar]

I am old school. Ten shots in a group to test the accuracy of a rifle and/or a load. Five shots to sight in a hunting rifle and three shots to check the zero from time to time.

[Harter66]

I shoot 3s when I'm burning the manufactured bullets in premium loads. I've come to like shooting 10s now that I'm casing.

Revolvers are different I shoot 5 in my BlackHawk and just 4 in my Sec 6 ,because both have the remaining holes that pitch with great consistance to the same place time after time. Those will miss most game at 50yds.

I have seen fellows that will year around shoot 1or2 shots every week on the same target or transpose to a single target to evaluate all weather dead cold clean proformance.

[hammerhead357]

Well I always used a 10 shot group except for checking zero of a hunting rifle the used 3. But I have been on the range using a 14 in contender and shot 5 shot groups at 100 yds. and had guys next to me get p.o.d because my handgun/handrifle groups were smaller than their rifle groups by a lot. I can't do it anymore but used to do it 25 yrs ago....LOL...Wes

[danski26]

"The amount of evidence required to accept that an event is unlikely to have arisen by chance is known as the statistical significance level"

The number of shots in a group and/or the number of groups your shoot depends on what you want to accomplish.

Lets say you want to see if a load/rifle groups +/- 1 MOA @ 100 meters with 60% certainty you MAY be able to get by with shooting 10 5 shot groups (this is just a guess by me to illustrate a point)

Now if you want to know if the load/rifle groups +/- 1 MOA @ 1,000 meters with a 95% certainty you MAY need to fire 100 5 shot groups (again just a guess)

So, be honest with yourself as to what you want to find out, make the best estimate you can of what you need to do to find a "stastisticaly significant" result......and have fun!

[3006guns]

Group=5 shots minimum.

This is going back in the dark, murky mists of time clear back to the turn of the century. 5 shots was considered the minumum to prove a rifle or load, allowing the barrel to warm up and fouling to accumulate. Military in origin, probably due to the magazine capacity of the Springfield '03. In any case, I've set that as my personal standard....or close anyway. Usually it's 4 consecutive breath holders, followed by one unaccountable *%##* flier that ruins everything!:roll:

[1Shirt]

5 for sighting on everything except for 375 H&H's which heat up fast, so three works there for me. After that 10 tells the story, and it seems like if group haints are goona get me group wise it will usually be on the 7th shot flier!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Gee_Wizz01]

I also use 5 shots for load development and 10 shots for honest accuracy testing. For accuracy testing my old M 99 featherweight, I shoot 1 shot at the same target on 10 different days. This is my hunting rifle and the first shot is the one that counts when I am hunting. I also have fired one 3 shot group on 5 different days. It was very interesting as this rifle doesn't do well with 5 shot groups as that pencil thin barrel heats up very quickly and moves around, but it does good with 3 shot groups, and I was pleasantly surprised with the 1 shot a day groups over 10 days, as this old rifle will stay under 1 MOA using this format.

G

[Dale53]

I have done serious group shooting for a great many years. This is an interesting topic to me. I no longer compete in bench rest shooting but I did learn a thing or two.

A discussion with a statistician elicited this information. If you truly want to know what a rifle will be capable of, you must shoot a total of a minimum of 33 shots, averaging them.

My personal experience has shown that multiple five shot groups will work. Three five shot groups in a row are pretty good but five, five shot groups will give you a truer picture.

Shooting a rifle off the bench, ten shot groups will definitely give you more information. However, ten shot groups are considerably harder to be consistent with (that is the SHOOTER) than five shot groups. In my own particular case, I have trouble maintaining maximum concentration for ten shots in a group. However, when shooting Schuetzen bench, score matches require ten shots. That is shooting a plain base bullet at 200 yards. The "sweet" spot is 1400-1500 fps and wind and mirage make this quite difficult.

There are those that have pretty much mastered this. Jim Borton is one. Here is one of his targets (not the best) that I have photographed:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/JimBortonsTarget.jpg

This target was shot in practice but he has since shot several targets that are smaller AND IN COMPETITION.

Because of vision problems, I am now limited to handguns. I shoot mostly with Red Dot sights (vision problems, again) and I shoot mostly standing at 25 yards (it is convenient). I save the better targets and have posted most on here. They are mostly ten shots but have, on occasion, stopped at five shots when a target is particularly good. Here is a recent ten shot target for score (indoors at fifty feet):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img024.jpg

Here is another at 25 yards:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img069.jpg

Here is a five shot group fired off a bench with my new (at the time) .44 Lipsey Special at 25 yards. Sometimes it is even hard to concentrate properly with just five shots. Due to vision problems, it is REALLY hard for me with iron sights, as it shows here:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img063.jpg

I am certainly "over the hill" but it is still very satisfying when I have a good day. The more often I shoot, the higher percentage of "good days" appear.

FWIW
Dale53

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Ok, my three shot testing/groups are finding no favor, but honestly tell me just how many of you have"FINALLY" gotten their critter on the 10th, 20th, 33rd -----------------------shot?

One thing I have noted, is those talking about the first shot from a "CLEAN" barrel and how they are concerned about the point of impact on the first clean barrel shot.

Well, experience has shown this Ol'Coot that the first shot from a clean barrel will not relyably, if at all, group with the following shots from a now "fouled" barrel.

The point being, before hunting season, my barrel is fouled, then taped over to keep out dirt, mud, twigs etc. etc. and my "first" shot then groups with the following shots.

If your so concerned about the placement of the "clean barrel" shot, what about if you do need a second or third shot? Do you now do mental gymnastics to remember where the shots from a fouled barrel land when compared to the clean barrel shot?

Sorry, That makes no sense to me.

Works for me.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Echo]

A discussion with a statistician elicited this information. If you truly want to know what a rifle will be capable of, you must shoot a total of a minimum of 33 shots, averaging them.


Well, from one OTH'er to another - all an increase in sample size does is reduce the amount of error. It doesn't eliminate error. So a sample size of 33 will be closer to the actual capability of the system (gun, load, shooter, weather,&cetera), but the only way to get the ACTUAL capability of ANY system is to do a census, that is, measure each and every incidence of occurrence. Impractical in most cases, so an acceptable level of error is set.

I remember a group of one that I wish I could have kept. Slow fire stage of the National Match Course, .45 Match, first round down range was a pinwheel X. Smack dab in the middle. Of course I had to continue shooting on the target, and I couldn't retrieve the target, but a group is what YOU call it. If a 3-shot group floats your boat (it does mine), then have at it. Remember - there is NO error until a measurement is taken. Whatever it is, IT IS! It's only when we try to measure it that we introduce error.

(Taught Stat, Measurement, Research Design, at graduate level...)

[Dale53]

Echo;
>>> all an increase in sample size does is reduce the amount of error. It doesn't eliminate error<<<

Of course, you are correct. What it does, is bring a measure of probability to the table within PRACTICAL limits. I should have said so.

FWIW
Dale53

[badgeredd]

Because many rifles change point of impact as they heat up, I target for hunting purposes 3 shot groups routinely. I also will shoot 5 shot groups and 10 shot groups to see what a firearm and I can do. My opinion is that when one says he shot a group, one needs to understand how many shots were fired and why.

Edd

[Blammer]

but then again as a friend of mine said "sometime you just have to know when to stop shooting"

so after the first two shots then adjusted for the next 3 I stopped shooting. :)

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/270gr41mag.jpg

and this target has 5 shots into the one hole and of course I should not have shot that last one....

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Targets/5-44shots226grNEI.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Hopefully somebody here with a good back ground in statistics could shed some light on this.
Here's the skinny on the two-shot group...
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Stats/Testing%20loads.htm

I do have a target for 'show and tell', and it (sorta) includes some one-shot and two-shot groups, along with a final five-shot.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=857623&postcount=26

CM

[btroj]

I rarely shoot "groups". I like to sight in each rifle the way i will use it in the field- offhand or sitting. I don't shoot much past 100 yards for hunting so I'm not too concerned with small groups. I'm more concerned with the ME part of the equation than the LOAD part of the equation.
I will admit that I shoot mostly leveractions not boltguns. I also shoot for fun, not bragging rights.
I have a nice sinclair frontrest- and use it maybe 1 or 2 times per year.
I have no trouble with people who like to shoot groups but don't know that it says much about what the shooter can do but more about the load and the gun. If i was going to shoot groups- I would likely lean towards 10 shots- and no discounting "flyers". A flyer in the field is a miss or a wounded animal- and that really counts.

[Blacksmith]

I had the privilege about half a century ago to watch Art Cook, former Olympian, put an entire box of 50 rounds of .22 LR into one hole at 50 ft. prone just to prove there wern't any flyers in the ammo.

Blacksmith

[dale2242]

I will shoot a minimum of three shot groups when testing loads. I normally shoot five shots. If a load looks promising I will shoot 5 shot groups later under different conditions. to confirm....dale

[geargnasher]

I like 5 shot groups myself, no called flyers and go from there.

I have shot many 10 shot groups but I like 5 because then you can get 10 test loads in a batch of 50 rounds. :)

+1. I then take what I think is the load that shot best, load and shoot 10-shot strings until I prove it good or no good for my goals.

I'm not one to measure a group by the two furthest shots, I find the mean center and average each, including flyers. For my own workups, I know if I flinched, so I strike my own known bad shots to eliminate that from the load where possible.

Someone said here that the actual group size rating of a given rifle/shooter/load is the LARGEST group tested with that combination, and I'm inclined to think the same way. Just because you average 2" at 100 yards doesn't mean that's what you'll shoot. Might be 1" as likely as 3".

Gear

[c3d4b2]

I have read differing preferences about the correct number of shots in a group. I am curious about about the reasoning behind the number of shots.

[BOOM BOOM]

hi,
I shoot 5shot groups w/ rifles, min., prefer 8-10 shotgroups.
Revolvers 1 cylinder full, min., prefer 10-12 shot groups.
I think the current 5 shot groups w/ 6 shot cylinder trend is sort of silly.

[mike in co]

ok so just how good of a "HUNTER" are you if it takes five shots to take down the game ?

(i am not a hunter, but i see everyone talking about the right gun/bullet for the game)


so i tend to agree with makers that shoot THREE SHOT GROUPS WITH HUNTING RIFLES.


all else is goal dependant. cmp/dcm match shooting in rifle...10 shot groups

if the match is 10 or 20 shots , shoot 10 or 20.

revolvers..a whole cylinder full cause the chambers differ.

in load developement i often do 3's, then when close do 5's and when i think i'm there do 10's. sometimes start with a ladder.

in br load work, often three's but if the first two are not touching, never shoot the third.
you ask why ?...because a third shot will never make the group smaller!

mike in co

[c3d4b2]

The answer to the number of shot to be considered a group will depend on the situation. In some instances as Mike mentioned 2 shots are sufficient. If you rifle normally groups 0.5" and the variable you are testing measures 3" after 2 shots then you have a pretty good idea that the variable that is being tested is worse with out running any statistical tests.

On the other hand if you rifle normally groups 0.5" and the variable you are testing measures 0.45" after 20 shots then you will need to run some statistical tests to determine if the difference is real or if the smaller group happened by chance .

Another example would be if you need to hit a 12" gong at 100 yards ten times in a row and your 3 shot group of 0.75" is probably sufficient.

If you need to hit a 0.75" gong ten times in a row at 100 yards and your 3 shot group is 0.75" then 3 shots is probably not sufficient. In this case to be sure that you hit the gong 10 times in a raw will require a much larger sample size.

The cost for the sampling also needs to be factored into the sample. If you can test for $0.01 per shot, you can afford a large sample size. On the other extreme, if it costs $50.00 a shot you will want to shoot only the number of shots required to verify your change is better or not.

There are statistical calculations that can determine the proper number of shots required to determine if one group is better than a second group. Here is a link that delves into the sample size selection.

http://ravenanalytics.com/Articles/Sample_Size_Calculations.htm

[cptinjeff]

When rifle or revolver shooting I shoot capacity as a group. And then almost all other shooting is done from hunting positions. I will measure or remove the first target and then place each remaining target on top of the previous target. When you're done for the day...you have the measure of the man. The bottom target with all the holes from all the targets gives you an idea if your consistent or not, or in the case of the revolver if your shooting past where you are ethical on game.