Wow

[44man]

My daughter just bought a Sig 9mm double action only and a box of Remington bullets. We shot it today and it was so easy to keep all shots in a 1" bull at 10 yards slow fire. I was impressed with the little gun.
My daughter shot the highest score ever shot by a woman in the Marine corps, even beating all the men but I admit to out shooting her today.

[cumminsnut76]

very impressive!!!

[Changeling]

It's obvious it just runs in the family, LOL.

[jwp475]

Great shooting, now get her a real gun for self defense

[9.3X62AL]

Great shooting, now get her a real gun for self defense

Are you offering to stand downrange and field the bullets with a catcher's glove?

With the right loads, the 9mm is a very capable defensive caliber. You say "DAO"--is it one of the P-250s?

[jwp475]

Are you offering to stand downrange and field the bullets with a catcher's glove?

With the right loads, the 9mm is a very capable defensive caliber. You say "DAO"--is it one of the P-250s?



Would you be willing with a pellet gun? I mean what kind of question is that?

[BruceB]

"What kind of question is that?"

Anyone who can say (with a straight face) that a 9mm is NOT a "real gun" has been smoking the wrong sort of vegetation.

My 3.25"-barreled Firestar 9mm delivers the Cor-Bon 115 JHP at a CHRONOGRAPHED 1270 fps. If that isn't a "real gun", then you need your meds adjusted. Compare that load to FACTORY .357/125s, and there's not much difference. "Firepower" is hitting the target, and a target well-hit with any decent 9mm load is going to be in a world of hurt.

I own and like the 9x19, .38 Special, .357, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 ACP, sometimes in multiples of each caliber. I've used all of them for decades. For hot weather, I CARRY a 9mm, and yes, it IS a "real gun".

I will also say that 9.3x62Al has 'seen the elephant' on a number of occasions, and it behooves some folks to be aware of that fact.

[StarMetal]

Boy, I'm sure glad the Germans didn't have real guns. Lucky us they only had those 9mm submachine guns, the P 38 & Luger pistols.

No seriously the 9mm is an all time great round. Powerful out of it's proportion. In a compact super light pistol the 9mm isn't any powder puff to handle, you know when it goes off you have something in your hand that is powerful. It's not a 380.

[waksupi]

I always kid a friend of mine who was in the British service, that he needs a .45ACP. He begins telling me what a good round the 9mm is. He one time pulled up his shirt, and showed me where the Irish Republic boys had stitched a few rounds across him with a 9mm squirt gun. I point out to him that a .45 would have been much more effective. He still doesn't find the humor in it, or concede the point to the .45.

[9.3X62AL]

Would you be willing with a pellet gun? I mean what kind of question is that?

Of course not--and the question was meant to illustrate via exaggeration one of the many myths and folkways surrounding The Caliber Wars we sometimes get drawn into. The 9mm Luger cartridge has had a great deal of research and development expended in attempts to "improve" it over the years. It seems that no one is ever happy with the load being carried, whether it's an 88 grain Super Vel going 1400 FPS or one of the excreble 147 grain JHP sub-sonic Fackler Specials now in vogue. Add on that most 9mm factory loads in this country are 20% underloads from European-level ballistics, a lot of heat and very little light gets generated.

What I'm saying is that the 9mm is enough gun--if the user carries enough cartridge in that gun. The 115 grain FMJ/RNs at barely 1100 FPS are a sick joke. If you rely on such ammo for exchanging finality, you may have a problem. The 9mm's original 1902 ballistics ran a 123-125 grain bullet at 1250 FPS. There is not one damn reason on earth to down-load the caliber from that performance point, other than the hand-wringing liability concerns of lawyers who don't know what they're talking about. Combine those 1902 ballistics with a 21st Century controlled-expansion bullet, and you have quite a viable fight-stopper. My 9mm carry load is the Speer Lawman 124 grain Gold Dot, which leave the P-226 at 1240-1250 FPS or so. That's not ad copy I'm quoting--I have a chronograph.

My wife likes my P-228 very much, and shoots it very well. She can handle a 45 ACP or 40 S&W just fine, but shoots the 9mm better than the other two calibers. These same loads clock 1200-1210 FPS from the shorter barrel, and in both pistols produce a substantially stronger report and recoil than the WWB or other generic weak-sistered target ammo. The ammo is head-stamped as "+P", but that is more hype/lies/bullsquat. The stuff is just loaded to its original potential.

1) Any gun is better than no gun.

2) A rifle or shotgun is preferable to a handgun, but are tough to conceal or carry for long periods of time or to have ready at hand on short notice.

3) There is no such thing as too large a caliber--to high a velocity--or too heavy a bullet when you are exchanging finality with a predator--2 or 4-legged. A poorly-deployed 45 ACP is infinitely inferior to a well-directed 9mm.

[Daddyfixit]

Boy, I'm sure glad the Germans didn't have real guns. Lucky us they only had those 9mm submachine guns, the P 38 & Luger pistols.

No seriously the 9mm is an all time great round. Powerful out of it's proportion. In a compact super light pistol the 9mm isn't any powder puff to handle, you know when it goes off you have something in your hand that is powerful. It's not a 380.

Your goinng to give my PPK-S a complex:rolleyes:

[pdawg_shooter]

If you had 4 rounds of ammo to stop 4 bad a**s intent on killing you, what would you pick ? A 45 ACP or a 9mm?

[Whitworth]

[QUOTE=BruceB;864650Anyone who can say (with a straight face) that a 9mm is NOT a "real gun" has been smoking the wrong sort of vegetation.

[/QUOTE]

Guess that would include me as well. While I enjoy shooting 9s and see their value in the hands of someone who is recoil sensitive, I prefer a bigger hole. You can keep your 9mm -- and I will stick with my bigger calibers.

[P.K.]

Ahem.....As the origional poster stated, said young lady is a capable shot. I don't care if it's a .22LR, it's shot placement that counts. FIRST shot placement in personal defence situations. As for the "Get a real gun" post, anything that fires a projectile through the use of combustable material is a real gun. What would you suggest is a "real" gun?

Sidenote, I was helping a buddy with range duties for a CCW class, this A$$CLOWN shows up with a .50 DE. I'm shaking my head and my buddy asked, "Why did you bring that to a CCW instruction course?" The ding-dong replys....."It's Sexy......"

[jwp475]

If you had 4 rounds of ammo to stop 4 bad a**s intent on killing you, what would you pick ? A 45 ACP or a 9mm?


For me it's a no brainer the 45 for sure and certain. Just ask any of the FBI agents that survived the Miami shoot out in 86 about how effective 9mm +P ammo REALLY is.

After shooting Deer and hogs with both the 9mm and the 45 ACP, I'l take the 45 every time when and if MY behind is only the line.

The 9mm is a perfect choice for those that like to shoot their adversaries multiple times.

[Whitworth]

Ahem.....As the origional poster stated, said young lady is a capable shot. I don't care if it's a .22LR, it's shot placement that counts. FIRST shot placement in personal defence situations. As for the "Get a real gun" post, anything that fires a projectile through the use of combustable material is a real gun. What would you suggest is a "real" gun?

Sidenote, I was helping a buddy with range duties for a CCW class, this A$$CLOWN shows up with a .50 DE. I'm shaking my head and my buddy asked, "Why did you bring that to a CCW instruction course?" The ding-dong replys....."It's Sexy......"

Real gun? Something that begins with a four and doesn't end with a zero. I know the original poster quite well and I can attest to all of their shooting abilities. Yes, placement is paramount, but a big bullet offers a much larger wound channel and if you are attempting to stop someone, give me big bullets. JMHO.

[44man]

Everyone knows I don't like small guns and I told her the loads she bought were not good defense loads.
My comment was about how easy the gun was to hit where aimed with double action, wonderful trigger pull and it shot to point of aim.
Not many nines will shoot that good. She is thinking about converting it to a .40.
Recoil does not bother her as skinny as she is. I used to hand her my long rifle flintlock and she would break a bottle at 75 yards off hand.
Don't fool with her with a shotgun either.
She just loves guns, has a German Mauser 8mm and a Mossberg 12 ga pistol grip to play with too.

[jwp475]

Gota love a girl that loves guns

[Trey45]

Just me personally here, but I don't care if it's a 22short or a 9mm or 32acp or whatever, I don't want to be on the wrong end of it. There's a metric ton of people that couldn't be anymore dead than they are right now from a 9mm shot than if they had been shot with a 105 smooth bore.

[jwp475]

Just me personally here, but I don't care if it's a 22short or a 9mm or 32acp or whatever, I don't want to be on the wrong end of it. There's a metric ton of people that couldn't be anymore dead than they are right now from a 9mm shot than if they had been shot with a 105 smooth bore.



Your point is? The first shot that hit Pratt in the FBI shoot out was a 115 Grain +P 9mm it was a fatal shot, the only problem was that he was able to continue to fight for another 4.5 minutes. Every agent that he killed and wounde came after the fatal hit.

He is very dead, but it didn't happen fast enough for me, YMMV

[Trey45]

My point is obvious to anyone not looking for an arguement. I don't want to get shot by any caliber. Hows that, simple enough for ya?

[45 2.1]

Not many nines will shoot that good.

Most any caliber out there will shoot that good............ provided the gun was built right and you put good ammo in it.......... and the person holding it is capable of the same.

[9.3X62AL]

JWP--I'm not dissing the 45 ACP. At all. GREAT caliber, and I own a couple of them--and am shopping for another. Two 40 Short & Weak pistols also grace the gun safe, as does one 10mm. Add in the three 9mm pistols, and we have some choices at my house. Given full-potential ammunition, all 4 of those calibers are capable and viable defensive chamberings. "Full-potential ammo" means all the velocity a caliber is capable of with its bullet weight, AND a modern controlled-expansion bullet.

These Caliber Debates tend to degenerate into arguments that are rather medieval in character--like cloistered monks debating 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin'. We all need to carry calibers and ammunition that we feel comfortable with in our respective environments. I have discontinued the public CCW of my P-226 x 9mm because of the requirement to use the sub-sonic 147 grain JHP my agency re-enforced recently. That **** isn't humane to use on jackrabbits, or capable of stopping an attacker without installing 10 or 12 rounds to convey the concept. The Glock 23 with 14 180 grain SXTs at 925 FPS will do nicely. That gives me one "Mozambique" per customer, given P-Dawg's scenario, with 2 left over for ballistic testing. They also DQ'ed my CZ-75 in 40 S&W, which did not impress me one bit, and obliged the purchase of the G-23. They need to make their minds up.

The "one-shot stop" is WITHOUT DOUBT the most ridiculous assertion ever made concerning defensive pistolcraft. Once an attacker has established the need to shoot him/her/it, don't fire once and admire your handiwork--continue firing until the threat presented by his/her/its actions no longer exists. I have zero confidence that ANY handgun caliber is capable of one-shot incapacitation of a drug-addled adrenaline-stoked adversary. THAT is reality.

[jwp475]

The "one-shot stop" is WITHOUT DOUBT the most ridiculous assertion ever made concerning defensive pistolcraft. Once an attacker has established the need to shoot him/her/it, don't fire once and admire your handiwork--continue firing until the threat presented by his/her/its actions no longer exists. I have zero confidence that ANY handgun caliber is capable of one-shot incapacitation of a drug-addled adrenaline-stoked adversary. THAT is reality.


I agree that one should keep shooting, but the faster the opponent goes down the better

A 9mm MIGHT expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 sure ain't going to shrink. A larger diameter wound lets out more blood faster IME

[NHlever]

I've had a few guns pointed at me in my life, and I have to say I respected them all equally!

[Three44s]

I added 9mm Para to my list of handgun cartridges last year.

It's not my first choice ..... the .44 mag is first!

But the gun you have with you ....... beats the best gun back home!

The weapon is a Kel-tec PF-9 ...... and I stopped the escape of a robbery suspect last Dec. at our ranch with it (without firing a shot) and we recovered ALL the stolen property as a result.

So my gun that most would frown on was right where I needed it .... when I needed it.

My much more preferable wheel guns were all sitting back at my house locked up tight and safe but too far away to affect the needed outcome!


Three 44s

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Hooo ahhhh ! Nothing like a good upbringing to help a new troop perform.
I have not yet shot an Sig that did not produce good groups right away.
So I bought a 45 model thinking I could somehow foul it up with a handload.
Not so... it shoots everything well and some loads very nice.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Have to agree w/ Al 9.3 's post # 10.
But it saddens me to loose 44MAN to the small bore crowd.:bigsmyl2:
Just kidding.
But you know me, I love the 44.

[fatnhappy]

I have zero confidence that ANY handgun caliber is capable of one-shot incapacitation of a drug-addled adrenaline-stoked adversary. THAT is reality.

Correct me if I'm wrong Sir, but didn't you do exactly that with a 158 grainer in a .38 special?
Anyone else here with an opinion might do well to remember that 9.3x62AL has been to the rodeo, twice.

[Bret4207]

Yes, we would all do well to realize that Allen has been through and survived the deadly encounters we all theorize on. Theory is fine, but I'll take my advice from the guy who has "seen the elephant".

[44man]

HI,
Have to agree w/ Al 9.3 's post # 10.
But it saddens me to loose 44MAN to the small bore crowd.:bigsmyl2:
Just kidding.
But you know me, I love the 44.
You know I love to shoot anything, just will not buy what I will not use. But how do you stop a sibling from getting small guns?
She watched me shoot my .475 and no, I would never hand it to her.
Now she can handle the .44 and .45 Colt very well but the .475 is too much of a step and dangerous.
What impressed me was the quality of the Sig. A friend dropped off a Walther P22 and it is a fine gun too. He wants the trigger lightened but I don't think I can do anything with it and keep it safe. I will just polish the parts.
Compared to a Ruger nine that is tough as all get out but shoots for beans, the Sig is easy to shoot and hit with.

[jwp475]

44AMan, in my experience Sig's are accurate and do come in larger calibers

[jwp475]

Yes, we would all do well to realize that Allen has been through and survived the deadly encounters we all theorize on. Theory is fine, but I'll take my advice from the guy who has "seen the elephant".


I am thankefull that he has prevailed twice, but that doesn't mean that a 38 is superior or the equal of a 45, now does it?

I'd take a 38 over nothing any day, that still doesn't make it my top choice

[Crash_Corrigan]

I love my 1911 in .45 ACP. It is fun to shoot and works pretty well. However it has in the past had FTF issues with less than perfect ammo and it does take a certain amount of practice to become profiecient in use.

I carried a .38 Revolver for 20 years in the NYCPD. It never failed. It always went bang. It also was an efficient club. We were forced to use a lousy round the famous 158 gr LRN boolit and it was a lousy performer but it did ALWAYS go bang.

I have since long retired from that career and I still prefer a revolver for a CCW gun. I carry either a Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special or a Taurus Model 85 .38 Special. Either gun with a chamber full of high quality defensive ammo gives me 5 accurate and reliable rounds to send downrange.

The 1911 is a more powerful round and can sling more rounds but at what cost? It is heavier, bigger and less reliable than a revolver. I can pocket a revolver and be well armed and with a few speedloaders I can bring 15 rounds to the game.

The big and bulky 1911 will stay home in the safe and I will be packing a 5 shot wheelgun because I know it will always work and I can hit the target every time with it with confidence.

[jwp475]

If a 1911 is not reliable then there is a problem that needs to be corrected. My 3 are all very reliable and always fire when asked.

[9.3X62AL]

Correct me if I'm wrong Sir, but didn't you do exactly that with a 158 grainer in a .38 special?
Anyone else here with an opinion might do well to remember that 9.3x62AL has been to the rodeo, twice.

Thanks for the kind words, friends. That first venture in 38 Special was with 110 grain +P, and two connected out of five fired, after sustaining a face hit from a shotgun pattern edge. As my mother explained at the time she was notified of my injury, a head wound couldn't be serious--nothing vital up there to hurt. True story--she's quite a lady, with grace--tact--and chutzpah that inspire all who know her.

I had the privilege and duty of examining lethal threat management scenarios from a number of perspectives over the years--as a participant, as a trainer, and as an investigator. From this experience, I have gathered the belief that the more one learns--the less one truly "knows" when it comes to terminal ballistics or to its effects upon the recipient of same.

All handguns are compromises between portability and projectable lethal force, and are skewed strongly toward the former.

There is NO SUCH THING as too much bullet diameter--bullet velocity--bullet weight--or ammo capacity. Period. Preferences for single-column 45 ACP over double-stack 9mm strongly infer belief in one-on-one engagements over multi-assailant armed attacks. I have survived both types of assault, using and/or having handguns. My strongest wish on every occasion was not concerned with BIG BULLET vs. BIG MAGAZINE--no, it was A RIFLE OR SHOTGUN WOULD BE VERY NICE TO HAVE RIGHT NOW, closely followed by SIX TO EIGHT PARTNERS WITH M-16s WOULD BE EVEN BETTER. Some other less polite or grammatically correct utterances likely occurred simultaneously, but you get the drift.

To paraphrase my good friend Bret4207, we spend an awful lot of time discussing arrows, but not a lot of energy or focus on the Indian. We lose track of the fact that mindset and awareness are the real key elements to surviving and/or avoiding such incidents. Having a 1911A1 in 45 ACP no more guarantees survival in a firefight than does ownership of a Unimat lathe make me a machinist.

I'm not about to make any recommendataions to anyone about what tool or cartridge to carry to keep them safe and well, apart from saying that one should use as powerful a round as you can project accurately and repeatedly, and to have on board as many of them as your situation might dictate. My habits at work are now followed in retirement--if with other armed companions, a 45 ACP or 357 Magnum goes along. If solo in urban settings, the Glock 23 or SIG P-226 gets the nod. If solo in back-country, it's a 686 x 4" and the Mini-14.

[Trey45]

Al would you mind expanding a bit about why you didn't like the CZ75 40sw? I ask because I was/am considering one. Thanks.

[Frosty Boolit]

I know you did not ask me but I have a CZ-75 P-06 .40 and it is an excellent machine. It has glow in the dark sights and seems to be more accurate then I am. The trigger pull is smooth enough and it can be fired from the decocked or hammer down position with the DA trigger pull and the rest of the mag can be fired SA. The things I dont like are that it is thick, heavy and for as large as the grip is it still only has 10 round in the mag. Also the sights do not have smoothly rounded edges. All in all it is a fine weapon that it well built with an alloy frame that is value priced. I had trouble finding a holster for it but it fits in a Glock 19 holster from galco.

[9.3X62AL]

Trey, I don't just like the CZ-75 x 40 Short & Weak--I LOVE IT. But my authorizing agency disallowed the platform for some reason after H.R. 218 was adopted, and I had to sign enough paper to kill 3 trees concerning make/model/caliber restrictions, religious preferences, voting habits, dental hygiene, and about 145 other THOU SHALT NOTs and YOU DARN WELL BETTERs the first time I qualified with the H.R. 218 format. That might be slightly exaggerated, but not by a lot.

Hence the Glock 23, which the agency smiles upon--and has for many years. Getting it like-new at a GREAT price didn't hurt any, either. Any time a government agency gets involved in authorizing weapons, you can reliably wager that Kabuki theater and inconsistency will flow along in large measure. I also stopped carting around the P-226 x 9mm, for similar/related cause--the required ammo is that subsonic 147 grain JHP that I love so dearly. NOT.

The CZ-75 is certainly the lead-friendliest 40 S&W I've ever fired. 1-16" twist rate, nice tall conventional rifling form, with throat about .4005" and grooves dead on the money at .400". It is accurate as all get-out, with jacketed and cast ammo. It has very good case head area support, also. Just because some admin cop wonks in CA don't bless it, doesn't mean it isn't one fine pistol. Of course, this same cloister of worthies DID authorize 1911A1s this year--so it's not all bad news from that quarter.

[44man]

OH, OH, the Walther P22 is the biggest mickey mouse setup I ever seen. I had to take it all apart to polish the sear surfaces and it took hours to put back together. I kept losing the little spring for the stupid gun lock, found it four times but the last time it was gone. I had to make a new one. I thought about leaving it out but didn't want to leave a hole in a new gun.
Need six hands to work on these! :???: The designers must never sleep, too crazy, bi-polar or something.
I was disappointed in how it shoots, the old Ruger mark I will shoot better at 200 yards then this thing does at 10.
If you ever take one apart, do it on a big tarp on the floor. All kinds of parts fall out that you won't see.

[P.K.]

I love my 1911 in .45 ACP. It is fun to shoot and works pretty well. However it has in the past had FTF issues with less than perfect ammo and it does take a certain amount of practice to become profiecient in use.
How does it have FTF issues? Unless it's been "tooled"( hold it...I mean this because some work or another has been done to it. ) it should function flawlessly( most do, but every now and then a simple timing issue will cause a proven auto to shoot nothing and cause who knows how many malfuntions). IMO the only issues I've had has been with expected wear. Either: Barrel, Springs or links. If ammo is an issue and I don't reccomend one over another but it's what recipie feeds best through a certain frame. Period.



I have since long retired from that career and I still prefer a revolver for a CCW gun. I carry either a Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Special or a Taurus Model 85 .38 Special. Either gun with a chamber full of high quality defensive ammo gives me 5 accurate and reliable rounds to send downrange.

Not bad choices, and I agree on the ammo point but I'm a rather "thin" fellow. I'm six foot and about 200 lbs. I hide a full frame 1911 better than any revolver.



The 1911 is a more powerful round and can sling more rounds but at what cost? It is heavier, bigger and less reliable than a revolver. I can pocket a revolver and be well armed and with a few speedloaders I can bring 15 rounds to the game.


K, your opinion, I can bring 17, 230 gr. HP to the game. Not less reliable, just in your opinion, more prone to malfunction. Correct? If a weapon is taken care of, cleaned and maintained the only malfunction that can happen is from two things barring enviornmental failures. Operator error and Ammo error(Malfunction, I know an operator can malfunction too.). I am not trying to instigate a contest between who can go the farthest, just that I have a 1911 with better than 25 years on it and with just some minor work have it firing everything I put through it. Final note, you mentioned a "FEW" speed loaders. I only have to pack one extra mag...



The big and bulky 1911 will stay home in the safe and I will be packing a 5 shot wheelgun because I know it will always work and I can hit the target every time with it with confidence.

I can do the same with the 1911, so I guess some can agree to disagree....Right?:Fire::drinks:

[warf73]

OH, OH, the Walther P22 is the biggest mickey mouse setup I ever seen. I had to take it all apart to polish the sear surfaces and it took hours to put back together. I kept losing the little spring for the stupid gun lock, found it four times but the last time it was gone. I had to make a new one. I thought about leaving it out but didn't want to leave a hole in a new gun.
Need six hands to work on these! :???: The designers must never sleep, too crazy, bi-polar or something.
I was disappointed in how it shoots, the old Ruger mark I will shoot better at 200 yards then this thing does at 10.
If you ever take one apart, do it on a big tarp on the floor. All kinds of parts fall out that you won't see.

Good to know I have 2 uncles that both own them and love them but wanted me to work over the triggers. Now with this tid bit of info that will be a big fat NO to the trigger work.
Shooting bad? is it the modle with the short or long barrel?
They both have the modle with both barrels. The longer barrel with CCI Min mags shoot really well if I remember correctly. Please understand I was hitting coke cans at 20 yard ish off hand so thats pretty good to me lol.
I agree its not like shooting the wifes Ruger 22/45, or moms Ruger slab side.

[44man]

Good to know I have 2 uncles that both own them and love them but wanted me to work over the triggers. Now with this tid bit of info that will be a big fat NO to the trigger work.
Shooting bad? is it the modle with the short or long barrel?
They both have the modle with both barrels. The longer barrel with CCI Min mags shoot really well if I remember correctly. Please understand I was hitting coke cans at 20 yard ish off hand so thats pretty good to me lol.
I agree its not like shooting the wifes Ruger 22/45, or moms Ruger slab side.
It shoots OK at close range and that is what it is for. Nice feeling little gun. Pretty little thing and it feels good in the hand. Just never take it all apart. Not a target gun but it does nicely for plinking.
Taking the two halves apart and having parts or springs go "POING" and then figuring out where they go is a pain.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have to admitt, I have the same affliction. I too will shoot almost anything someone offers to let me.
Just couldn't resist the tease.

[Trey45]

Trey, I don't just like the CZ-75 x 40 Short & Weak--I LOVE IT. But my authorizing agency disallowed the platform for some reason after H.R. 218 was adopted, and I had to sign enough paper to kill 3 trees concerning make/model/caliber restrictions, religious preferences, voting habits, dental hygiene, and about 145 other THOU SHALT NOTs and YOU DARN WELL BETTERs the first time I qualified with the H.R. 218 format. That might be slightly exaggerated, but not by a lot.

Hence the Glock 23, which the agency smiles upon--and has for many years. Getting it like-new at a GREAT price didn't hurt any, either. Any time a government agency gets involved in authorizing weapons, you can reliably wager that Kabuki theater and inconsistency will flow along in large measure. I also stopped carting around the P-226 x 9mm, for similar/related cause--the required ammo is that subsonic 147 grain JHP that I love so dearly. NOT.

The CZ-75 is certainly the lead-friendliest 40 S&W I've ever fired. 1-16" twist rate, nice tall conventional rifling form, with throat about .4005" and grooves dead on the money at .400". It is accurate as all get-out, with jacketed and cast ammo. It has very good case head area support, also. Just because some admin cop wonks in CA don't bless it, doesn't mean it isn't one fine pistol. Of course, this same cloister of worthies DID authorize 1911A1s this year--so it's not all bad news from that quarter.

Thanks VERY much for clearing that up for me, I obviously misunderstood what you had said in your prior posting. This glowing endorsement of the CZ75 in 40SW is enough for me. I have a CZ P01 in 9mm which is by far my most accurate 9mm I've ever owned. I'm a fan of the 40SW anyhow, having 2 pistols and one carbine chambered in it, the CZ75 40SW just seems like a natural evolution to me. Thanks again!

[Bret4207]

I am thankefull that he has prevailed twice, but that doesn't mean that a 38 is superior or the equal of a 45, now does it?

I'd take a 38 over nothing any day, that still doesn't make it my top choice

It doesn't have to be your top choice. No one cares what your top choice is. You use what appeals to you. But since you seem to put so much faith in the Famous But Incompetent, lets remember it was those great minds that gave us the 9mm 147 sub-sonic round. As one who was forced to carry that miserable excuse for a defensive round for a few years I can tell you first hand they did no one any great favors.

Truth is nothing is perfect every time out. I prefer revolvers of 357 mag caliber or larger for police work. Note I said police work, not gunfighting. If I knew I was going where lead might be flying I took a shotgun, and probably a non issue rifle too. The actual difference between a 38/9mm/ 357/44/45 is far less than the difference between any of those and a load of 12 gauge buckshot in the K5, or better, a slug!

My point is you have several people here who have real life, first hand experience in the cops and robbers game. I'm pretty sure to a man they'd agree that all the magazine articles, foot pounds charts, CSI re-runs and nifty techno mall ninja wannabe dreaming doesn't add up to much in the real world. You feel the 45 is the best thing since bottled beer, that's great. We all agree it's better than a 38 or 9, but that doesn't mean a good man with a 45 is going to beat a better man with a 38 or 9.

[9.3X62AL]

Trey--

No sweat, sir--sorry for the lack of clarity earlier.

JWP--

In many instances involving police or military personnel, they have little or no choice in terms of caliber and/or platform. A citizen CCW or home-defense scenario offers a wider range of choices than many folks that go in harm's way for a living are able to exercise. A good thing for the citizens, surely. Though my own choices are fairly wide, there remain restrictions and guidelines--and as difficult as a CCW is to get in CA, I strive to know the rules and abide by them as closely as possible.

[Whitworth]

It doesn't have to be your top choice. No one cares what your top choice is. You use what appeals to you. But since you seem to put so much faith in the Famous But Incompetent, lets remember it was those great minds that gave us the 9mm 147 sub-sonic round. As one who was forced to carry that miserable excuse for a defensive round for a few years I can tell you first hand they did no one any great favors.



Bret, why do you seem so angry/hostile? Folks are sharing their opinions here.

[45 2.1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bret4207 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images_acps/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=869911#post869911)
It doesn't have to be your top choice. No one cares what your top choice is. You use what appeals to you. But since you seem to put so much faith in the Famous But Incompetent, lets remember it was those great minds that gave us the 9mm 147 sub-sonic round. As one who was forced to carry that miserable excuse for a defensive round for a few years I can tell you first hand they did no one any great favors.


Bret, why do you seem so angry/hostile? Folks are sharing their opinions here.

Sounds like the man is relating some real experience there. Maybe if a fella gets shot at and all he has is the mandated carry gun and approved ammo and IT ISN'T ENOUGH, then he might sound like that, which doesn't sound angry or hostile, just a solid opinion..........................

[Whitworth]

"No one cares what your top choice is" is not hostile? It's dismissive in the very least. I have shot more game with handguns than many on this site and you don't hear me dismissing the opinions of others. Just an observation. And for the record, I have been shot at but I am not shunning others' opinions. JMHO.

[45 2.1]

"No one cares what your top choice is" is not hostile? Nope..... your top choice would likely be something not practical to carry...... or could be somewhat illegal.... so the statement is good. It's dismissive in the very least. I have shot more game with handguns than many on this site A lot of guys here are just beginning...... and some of use have had a lifetime at it. I very much doubt either you or Jim can claim the most game with a handgun title. and you don't hear me dismissing the opinions of others. See your posts #13 & #16 of this thread.... you already dismissed others for a choice. Just an observation. And for the record, I have been shot at but I am not shunning others' opinions. JMHO. A fella should remember what he just wrote in a thread and not contradict himself as you have.

Post #13 as it is now.................

[QUOTE=BruceB;864650Anyone who can say (with a straight face) that a 9mm is NOT a "real gun" has been smoking the wrong sort of vegetation.

[/QUOTE]

Guess that would include me as well. While I enjoy shooting 9s and see their value in the hands of someone who is recoil sensitive, I prefer a bigger hole. You can keep your 9mm -- and I will stick with my bigger calibers.

Post #16 as it is now.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by P.K.
Ahem.....As the origional poster stated, said young lady is a capable shot. I don't care if it's a .22LR, it's shot placement that counts. FIRST shot placement in personal defence situations. As for the "Get a real gun" post, anything that fires a projectile through the use of combustable material is a real gun. What would you suggest is a "real" gun?

Sidenote, I was helping a buddy with range duties for a CCW class, this A$$CLOWN shows up with a .50 DE. I'm shaking my head and my buddy asked, "Why did you bring that to a CCW instruction course?" The ding-dong replys....."It's Sexy......"

Whitworths reply:
Real gun? Something that begins with a four and doesn't end with a zero. I know the original poster quite well and I can attest to all of their shooting abilities. Yes, placement is paramount, but a big bullet offers a much larger wound channel and if you are attempting to stop someone, give me big bullets. JMHO.

[jwp475]

Trey--

No sweat, sir--sorry for the lack of clarity earlier.

JWP--

In many instances involving police or military personnel, they have little or no choice in terms of caliber and/or platform. A citizen CCW or home-defense scenario offers a wider range of choices than many folks that go in harm's way for a living are able to exercise. A good thing for the citizens, surely. Though my own choices are fairly wide, there remain restrictions and guidelines--and as difficult as a CCW is to get in CA, I strive to know the rules and abide by them as closely as possible.



I never stated any thing to the contrary. I was posting about my caliber preference.
It is true that the difference between the different calibers that are normaly chossen for self defense are not far apart, but if given the choice I will take the added benefit of a larger calliber even if the difference is only 1% in my favor

None of this topic is about mind set, tactics and/or training, just caliber preference

[Whitworth]

"No one cares what your top choice is" is not hostile? Nope..... your top choice would likely be something not practical to carry...... or could be somewhat illegal.... so the statement is good. It's dismissive in the very least. I have shot more game with handguns than many on this site A lot of guys here are just beginning...... and some of use have had a lifetime at it. I very much doubt either you or Jim can claim the most game with a handgun title. and you don't hear me dismissing the opinions of others. See your posts #13 & #16 of this thread.... you already dismissed others for a choice. Just an observation. And for the record, I have been shot at but I am not shunning others' opinions. JMHO. A fella should remember what he just wrote in a thread and not contradict himself as you have.

Post #13 as it is now.................



Guess that would include me as well. While I enjoy shooting 9s and see their value in the hands of someone who is recoil sensitive, I prefer a bigger hole. You can keep your 9mm -- and I will stick with my bigger calibers.

Post #16 as it is now.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by P.K.
Ahem.....As the origional poster stated, said young lady is a capable shot. I don't care if it's a .22LR, it's shot placement that counts. FIRST shot placement in personal defence situations. As for the "Get a real gun" post, anything that fires a projectile through the use of combustable material is a real gun. What would you suggest is a "real" gun?

Sidenote, I was helping a buddy with range duties for a CCW class, this A$$CLOWN shows up with a .50 DE. I'm shaking my head and my buddy asked, "Why did you bring that to a CCW instruction course?" The ding-dong replys....."It's Sexy......"

Whitworths reply:
Real gun? Something that begins with a four and doesn't end with a zero. I know the original poster quite well and I can attest to all of their shooting abilities. Yes, placement is paramount, but a big bullet offers a much larger wound channel and if you are attempting to stop someone, give me big bullets. JMHO.


Wow, what a convoluted post!! I don't know where to start. What started out as a good natured ribbing of a personal friend seemed to have brought out the worst in some here. I seem to recall that some of us simply voiced our caliber preferences and I guess some here just don't like them. Odd. You seem to have taken a lot of wha I have said out of context.

[scrapcan]

Al, Bret and Crash ( I will add KSCO but he is not in this thread). Thank you guys very much. good posts from the real world. Not always the same world the rest of us live in. Bad that you folks get to see the best of the best.

Al,

Thanks to you for the super posts and the professionalism in those posts.

No thoughts on the caliber game other than have been said, Use what you can hit with.

[9.3X62AL]

Thanks for the kind words, J.T.

If someone is feeling that I'm calling what JWP and others have posted as being "wrong", that is NOT what I meant. At all. Lotta truth in JWP's assertion that 'a 9mm may expand, but a 45 won't shrink'. Stone fact, that. I'm all for the maximum bullet diameter--bullet weight--and bullet velocity obtainable.

[P.K.]

Wow, what a convoluted post!! I don't know where to start. What started out as a good natured ribbing of a personal friend seemed to have brought out the worst in some here. I seem to recall that some of us simply voiced our caliber preferences and I guess some here just don't like them. Odd. You seem to have taken a lot of wha I have said out of context.

O-k, I got dragged into this by proxy, But by god, dude, let it go. Understood, you were having a jab at your friend. I get that now. GTG. (For those that are ACRONYM challenged GTG= Good to Go.) As for what ever argument you have cooked up for what I have to say, save it. YOU WIN. Sorry but I have other uses of time to address. :coffee:

[44man]

If I wanted a carry gun, I would get one of those .600 Nitro express revolvers, that will show the BG's I mean business! [smilie=l:
Anyone have a concealed carry holster for one? :bigsmyl2:

[StarMetal]

Thanks for the kind words, J.T.

If someone is feeling that I'm calling what JWP and others have posted as being "wrong", that is NOT what I meant. At all. Lotta truth in JWP's assertion that 'a 9mm may expand, but a 45 won't shrink'. Stone fact, that. I'm all for the maximum bullet diameter--bullet weight--and bullet velocity obtainable.

Well said Al, you simply can't beat a bigger cubic inch engine. Oh sure some of the small block engines will do it with work, but do the same work to the big block and see what happens. About the only thing I think the smaller caliber round may do is penetrate a barrier more, when at high velocity. Example. A 30 carbine bullet will penetrate a military steel helmet, a 45 acp more then likely will not. I think the Russians were on to something with their very high velocity 7.62x25. Don't forget they are a severe climate country and wear lots of heavy winter clothing. That little Tokarev round is a penetrater.

[dubber123]

If I wanted a carry gun, I would get one of those .600 Nitro express revolvers, that will show the BG's I mean business! [smilie=l:
Anyone have a concealed carry holster for one? :bigsmyl2:

Jim, I hear the holsters made for the 45-70 BFR's fit great... [smilie=1: (how's that for a good natured jab?)

[9.3X62AL]

I guess what I'm getting at here is that there MAY be more than one way to skin a cat. All handgun calibers are compromises between portability and ability to project lethal force. We try to justify our educated choices of caliber, and a lot of formulae have been generated to quantify mathematically an effect that is at best subjective, and largely unpredictable with any measure of reliability. Every one of these formulae depends upon squaring some factor of the equation on which the formula is based--velocity, bullet weight, or bullet diameter. Tellingly, the Hatcher Index of Relative Stopping Power relies on the squaring of bullet diameter--and bullet diameter is in fact a square, and not linear measurement--therefor, Hatcher's supposition may imitate reality more closely in this way. Hatcher's theory favors the 45 caliber, and I have no issues with a 45 ACP for social engineering venues. NONE.

Still, I vote "MORE OF EVERYTHING". A Model 686 x 4" with 158 grain JHPs in 357 flavor on board is my favored counter-predator device, and an autopistol goes along only when mode of attire makes the rollerpistol inappropriate. I'll REALLY fan the flames now, and say that I consider the 357 Magnum a better badguy stopper than the 45 ACP. Flame away, as indicated. I'm wearing Nomex for the occasion. :)

[S.R.Custom]

...I have no issues with a 45 ACP for social engineering venues. NONE.

Indeed. In all the excitement over new calibers in semi-auto handguns over the past few years, not once have I heard a credible lament over the "inadequate stopping power" of the .45.


Still, I vote "MORE OF EVERYTHING"...I consider the 357 Magnum a better badguy stopper than the 45 ACP. And on some days you'd be right. ;-)

[Bret4207]

Bret, why do you seem so angry/hostile? Folks are sharing their opinions here.

Another case of one party not being able to hear my voice or read my body language. I'm no more dismissive or angry/hostile than the poster who completely disregards the several lifetimes of police experience in this thread. No one argues the 45 is a great SD round, so is the 44, 41, 40 and 357. None are perfect. For instance, the 357 is far better for general rural police work than a 9mm. A properly loaded 38 is better than a standard 9mm most any day of the week. Where the bottom feeders shine is in those fast reloads and capacity, a much loved plus by the spray and pray crowd. It doesn't make up for your misses or hits with an inadequate round. Having started my career carrying just 18 rounds in my gun and in loop loaders on my belt ( and having gone into a few incidents with my pockets full of ammo!) I can appreciate the sense of peace having 50 rounds immediately available gives, but what good does it do if the round is, frankly, a piss poor excuse for a stopper of any kind? Same for the 45 in some instances- if you need to make a 75+ yard shot the 357 is far, far easier to hit with than a 45 and will have the remaining energy to do some damage and penetration. Same for stopping auto's- the 357 class will do a better job than a 45, but no where near as good as a 12 ga. But I'm not carrying a 12 ga everywhere I go.

So in the end it's all a trade off. I feel fine carrying a 44 Special Charter BD or a Smith Bodyguard with my handloads. Shoot, most of time I'm good with my 22 Kit Gun or just a Leatherman on my belt! No one cares what I choose. It's whatever YOU feel comfortable with. If you or anyone else feels they HAVE to carry a 500 Magnum, have at it. Good for you. But I can assure you that when you're looking down the barrel of a 22 pointed at your face you'll wish you had a tank because that handgun is a poor stopper no matter what you carry. All the charts and stories in Mall Ninja Monthly or Tacticool Tactics mean nothing if you don't hit your target. And the fluke shot might be the one that gets you any way so you do your best and try to stay the heck away from the bad spots. That 500 isn't going to work for the average guy, much less average girl. That's why the hot 9's and 45 GAP came about, making a carryable platform with enough power to do the job. For some the 45 is too much, too big. For others even a 9 is uncontrollable. I'd rather see a BG hot 5 times with a 32 Auto than missed 18 times with a 9 or 9 times with a 45.

So use what you will but don't discount the realities of the real world.

[44man]

I am not a fan of the .38 or nine for defense. Looking at my wood pile I find a bunch of 9MM bullets just laying on the wood. Looks like they bounced off and fell.
I would use the .357 for carry, also the .45 ACP, and .44 special. For hunting, anything starting with "4" to "5".
That was not what my post was about. It was about the PLATFORM and the nice gun, NOT the caliber.
The nine is great for shooting someone in the head as they kneel from oppression by a bad government. But I want larger to preserve my freedom.
I trust a .22 more then a nine or .38.
When the goons hired by Obama come to take my freedom, my .475 will remove many of them first. From my cold, dead hands!

[StarMetal]

Dead on Bret. I know Bret and I haven't gotten along in the past, but the man was in law enforcement and knows what the heck he is talking about. Same with Al...you don't put all those years in law enforcement and not learn something about firearms.

44man.....I had to laugh at your remarks about the 9mm bullets laying around your wood pile. I reckon you could have told that to the Nazi's if you were in WWII against them. They sure killed a lot of people with their 9mm's. So let's do a test. You get the local law enforcement and the FBI out to your place and I'll come up with my 9mm and you can choose the wood barrier you will stand behind and I shoot at you...ok? I find bullets of all calibers, rifle included, laying on the ground around my wood pile too.

[44man]

Dead on Bret. I know Bret and I haven't gotten along in the past, but the man was in law enforcement and knows what the heck he is talking about. Same with Al...you don't put all those years in law enforcement and not learn something about firearms.

44man.....I had to laugh at your remarks about the 9mm bullets laying around your wood pile. I reckon you could have told that to the Nazi's if you were in WWII against them. They sure killed a lot of people with their 9mm's. So let's do a test. You get the local law enforcement and the FBI out to your place and I'll come up with my 9mm and you can choose the wood barrier you will stand behind and I shoot at you...ok? I find bullets of all calibers, rifle included, laying on the ground around my wood pile too.
I find a few .475 boolits too but only after going through 16" of seasoned oak. The nines are in FRONT of the wood.
I would be safe behind about 4" from the nine. Remember the Nazi's shot people in the back of the head. A .22 is as effective.
If I was to carry, it would be a .45 1911, never a nine.
Wear body armor and let me shoot you with a .475 or a .500. You will go down even if the armor stops the boolit. You would not feel nines enough to stop.

[Bret4207]

I find a few .475 boolits too but only after going through 16" of seasoned oak. The nines are in FRONT of the wood.
I would be safe behind about 4" from the nine. Remember the Nazi's shot people in the back of the head. A .22 is as effective.
If I was to carry, it would be a .45 1911, never a nine.
Wear body armor and let me shoot you with a .475 or a .500. You will go down even if the armor stops the boolit. You would not feel nines enough to stop.

Wrong.

[BruceB]

To expand upon Bret's reply:

In the old video titled "Deadly Weapons", a man wearing body armor was shot at muzzleflash range with an FAL rifle in 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester), using full-power ammuntion. There was literally no visible reaction to the shot; he didn't move. For the second shot, he balanced on one foot, and again, no sway, no knockdown, nothing. The rifle was functioning in semi-auto mode, which indicates that the cartridges were normally-loaded full-power ammo.

The 7.62 NATO, firing 148 grains at 2750 fps, yields 2472 foot-pounds of energy.

The .475 Linebaugh, firing 400 grains at 1300 fps, gives 1501 foot-pounds.

Since either round would be stopped in the armor within about an inch, the WAY the force is applied (light & fast, or heavy & slow) is irrelevant. If the man was unaffected by 2472 foot-pounds, he surely wouldn't be affected by only 1500 foot-pounds.

Bret's answer is correct: "Wrong."

[DanOH]

To expand upon Bret's reply:

In the old video titled "Deadly Weapons", a man wearing body armor was shot at muzzleflash range with an FAL rifle in 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester), using full-power ammuntion. There was literally no visible reaction to the shot; he didn't move. For the second shot, he balanced on one foot, and again, no sway, no knockdown, nothing. The rifle was functioning in semi-auto mode, which indicates that the cartridges were normally-loaded full-power ammo.

The 7.62 NATO, firing 148 grains at 2750 fps, yields 2472 foot-pounds of energy.

The .475 Linebaugh, firing 400 grains at 1300 fps, gives 1501 foot-pounds.

Since either round would be stopped in the armor within about an inch, the WAY the force is applied (light & fast, or heavy & slow) is irrelevant. If the man was unaffected by 2472 foot-pounds, he surely wouldn't be affected by only 1500 foot-pounds.

Bret's answer is correct: "Wrong."



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8hHkNPmqCk

[44man]

I won't get involved in the ME debate after seeing too many animals shot with all kinds of rifles show little or no reaction.
All I will say that with normal body armor, a 420 gr boolit is going to HURT.

[waksupi]

To expand upon Bret's reply:

I
The 7.62 NATO, firing 148 grains at 2750 fps, yields 2472 foot-pounds of energy.

The .475 Linebaugh, firing 400 grains at 1300 fps, gives 1501 foot-pounds.

Since either round would be stopped in the armor within about an inch, the WAY the force is applied (light & fast, or heavy & slow) is irrelevant. If the man was unaffected by 2472 foot-pounds, he surely wouldn't be affected by only 1500 foot-pounds.

Bret's answer is correct: "Wrong."

I believe the comparison with the body armor may be somewhat incorrect. A friend of mine responded to a call, where a deputy had been in a pursuit of a criminal headed for Idaho. When the car was finally stopped, the bad guy got out of the car with a .45-70 lever action, and shot the deputy. The bullet didn't penetrate the vest, but did have enough momentum to crush the sternum back to the spine, killing him instantly. I don't believe a smaller lighter bullet would have been capable of this.

[44man]

I believe the comparison with the body armor may be somewhat incorrect. A friend of mine responded to a call, where a deputy had been in a pursuit of a criminal headed for Idaho. When the car was finally stopped, the bad guy got out of the car with a .45-70 lever action, and shot the deputy. The bullet didn't penetrate the vest, but did have enough momentum to crush the sternum back to the spine, killing him instantly. I don't believe a smaller lighter bullet would have been capable of this.
Thank you, that is what I was talking about.
I would never shoot a LEO or soldier anyway. My only hope is that they follow their sworn allegiance to the constitution and resist following orders from our present POTUS.

[StarMetal]

I believe the comparison with the body armor may be somewhat incorrect. A friend of mine responded to a call, where a deputy had been in a pursuit of a criminal headed for Idaho. When the car was finally stopped, the bad guy got out of the car with a .45-70 lever action, and shot the deputy. The bullet didn't penetrate the vest, but did have enough momentum to crush the sternum back to the spine, killing him instantly. I don't believe a smaller lighter bullet would have been capable of this.

I think you are on to something there Ric. Maybe the reason when a 375 pound NFA tackle hits you it get knocked down harder then if a 190 pound wide receiver hits you. Takes a long time for a slow moving train to stop when it hits something then a faster moving truck. Reckon what we're looking for here is momentum.

But a 9mm is still a viable caliber and a 22 isn't a pea shooter.

[44man]

Any boolit that goes through 16" of seasoned oak is no laughing matter. You would be safe with the ceramic or steel plate armor but there is a lot of kinetic energy behind it. That is a lot different then ME.
If all I had was a nine to carry, it is better then nothing but if I had to buy a gun for carry, I would still buy a .45 or a .44 special. A .40 would even make me feel good and a .357 is also ideal.
The .44 mag and up would be very poor choices.

[Bret4207]

With respect to Uncle Bruce, the type of armor you wear has a lot to do with it. A hit to the trauma plate, as in Bruces post, is one thing. A hit to the soft part of standard street issue BA will most certainly get your attention in a very big way. There's also the problem of just what round you're hit with and what it's fired from. A hit from a short barreled 9 using JHP ammo will be quite unlike a hit from a 9mm rifle, a Hi Point for instance, with ball. That's likely to penetrate many types of BA and do a great deal of bad stuff to your innards. Defeating body armor is one place section density helps as does a hard, sharp point.

I will reiterate my favorable impression of the 357/40/44/45 class cartridges and my dislike for the 9mm/standard 38 Spec class for general police work. However, this idea that the 9mm is some weak sister incapable of rendering so much as a flesh wound to any red blooded American man is pure, unadulterated horse puckey.

FWIW- I wore body armor every day for a lot of years. I didn't wear it so much to make me bullet proof as to help me survive the inevitable car crashes or getting hit by a car. Lots more guys die from those two than gunfire and the vest helps in both cases.

[BruceB]

I fully agree with Bret and 44man that "normal" armor won't protect us like the extremely-heavy armor used in the Deadly Weapons video. It was so bulky that it would be impractical for anything except short-term use, perhaps in raids or something like that.

It does demonstrate the essential lack of meaning in muzzle energy figures.

Waksupi's post, among others, illustrates the problem of "blunt-force trauma", where bullet impact does severe damage even if the projectile fails to penetrate the armor. This is a well-known condition.

What I was trying to demonstrate was that 2000+ foot-pounds doesn't necessarily amount to much. .44man raised the point that many animals show no reaction to hits even when they absorb the entire energy of the bullet. I've seen the same thing many times, and as usual, bullet placement is of primary importance.

Which, BTW (grin) is the rationale for my carrying of the 9mm SOMETIMES...at other times it may be my beloved .45 ACPs, or a .44. or whatever.... I'm not wedded to the 9mm by any means, but I like it for some uses. As mentioned earlier, if a .357/125 is a highly-respected service load, and it is, then a 9mm giving very close to the same performance is essentially just as good...it simply doesn't say ".357" on the case head. This does not apply to all 9x19 ammunition out there, and we still have to select carefully.

Like most, though, I prefer the .45 when I can use it.

[9.3X62AL]

With all this beat-down concerning the 9mm, I'm being forced into choosing a Series 70 Colt Commander in 45 ACP, just to save face and serve the interests of honor. It will be a sacrifice, but I'll make it. :)

[docone31]

My old Commander was the best fitting, best firing, pistol I have ever had!
Tough way to save face.
You can hang your head in shame whilst you make it into a race gun.
Heheeheh.
A solid piece of craftsmanship.
Feels good, handles well.

[fatnhappy]

To expand upon Bret's reply:

In the old video titled "Deadly Weapons", a man wearing body armor was shot at muzzleflash range with an FAL rifle in 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester), using full-power ammuntion. There was literally no visible reaction to the shot; he didn't move. For the second shot, he balanced on one foot, and again, no sway, no knockdown, nothing. The rifle was functioning in semi-auto mode, which indicates that the cartridges were normally-loaded full-power ammo.

The 7.62 NATO, firing 148 grains at 2750 fps, yields 2472 foot-pounds of energy.

The .475 Linebaugh, firing 400 grains at 1300 fps, gives 1501 foot-pounds.

Since either round would be stopped in the armor within about an inch, the WAY the force is applied (light & fast, or heavy & slow) is irrelevant. If the man was unaffected by 2472 foot-pounds, he surely wouldn't be affected by only 1500 foot-pounds.

Bret's answer is correct: "Wrong."

Not exactly. The law at work is conservation of momentum and a 400 grain boolit at 1300 has 27% more momentum than a 148 grain bullet at 2472 fps.

BTW My vote goes for a commander too. I guess that's why I bought one 23 years ago and still carry it.

[StarMetal]

With all this beat-down concerning the 9mm, I'm being forced into choosing a Series 70 Colt Commander in 45 ACP, just to save face and serve the interests of honor. It will be a sacrifice, but I'll make it. :)

You'll love it AL. I have an 80 Series Gold Cup Combat Commander Stainless, one of 1000 made. I did all the tuning on it, shoots like a target pistols. All I changed was I added Black Ebony Diamond grips and an extended beaver tail. My favorite 1911.

[9.3X62AL]

I've been comprehensively SHAMED into making this acquisition. Yeah, RIGHT.

I'm not seeking a target grade/gun games pistol--it will be a street carry piece, nice and sloppy-toleranced, loose as a goose, "minute of #2 washtub at 50 yards" grouping will do. It will have to wait until 1) I hit the lottery or 2) some windfall lands in my lap or 3) I save my dimes and quarters diligently for a while. Other needs have reared their heads of late--I just love surprises, don't you? NOT!

Oh, the shame of it all........

[jwp475]

I believe the comparison with the body armor may be somewhat incorrect. A friend of mine responded to a call, where a deputy had been in a pursuit of a criminal headed for Idaho. When the car was finally stopped, the bad guy got out of the car with a .45-70 lever action, and shot the deputy. The bullet didn't penetrate the vest, but did have enough momentum to crush the sternum back to the spine, killing him instantly. I don't believe a smaller lighter bullet would have been capable of this.



You are correct it is the momentun transfer that does the damage, Not ENERGY with is transformed into other forms of energy in and inelastic collision. Energy transforms into sound, thermal,etc in an inelastic collison

[jwp475]

Not exactly. The law at work is conservation of momentum and a 400 grain boolit at 1300 has 27% more momentum than a 148 grain bullet at 2472 fps.

BTW My vote goes for a commander too. I guess that's why I bought one 23 years ago and still carry it.



Spot on.............

[Bret4207]

I've been comprehensively SHAMED into making this acquisition. Yeah, RIGHT.

I'm not seeking a target grade/gun games pistol--it will be a street carry piece, nice and sloppy-toleranced, loose as a goose, "minute of #2 washtub at 50 yards" grouping will do. It will have to wait until 1) I hit the lottery or 2) some windfall lands in my lap or 3) I save my dimes and quarters diligently for a while. Other needs have reared their heads of late--I just love surprises, don't you? NOT!

Oh, the shame of it all........

Then I would be in good company carrying my Star PD!:p

[BruceB]

Curmudgeon and myself were looking at a PRE-70-Series Commander at the Scheel's store in Reno just last week.

These have the tasteful TINY lettering on the slide, unlike the billboard-style of later guns, but more importantly they have the original-style barrel bushing. The 70-series bushings, with spring-loaded fingers, had a very nasty habit of breaking-off one of the fingers inside the slide, where it immediately would tie up the gun and also make dis-assembly extremely difficult. I saw this happen TWICE, to other folks' guns, so it's not a "war story".

I believe an original-style solid bushing will just drop in on a '70-series gun, and if so, it should be done forthwith.

The Commander we saw showed some exterior wear, so it was no virgin, but the bore was excellent and evrything else worked as it should. I seem to remember that the price was about $600.

Kimber makes a lightweight .45 (aluminum frame) in six-round style with 4" barrel, called the Compact Ultra Carry or something like that. If I ever get the will and the money together at the same time, it would be a sterling carry gun....even comes with tritium sights (not critical, to me) and the ambidextrous safety, which is essential to us left-siders. That would make a very fine carry gun.

Star PDs do appear occasionally at the Big Reno Show, and they're tempting, too. My need for the ambi safety has stopped any buys in that line, however. Nice gun.

[StarMetal]

Curmudgeon and myself were looking at a PRE-70-Series Commander at the Scheel's store in Reno just last week.

These have the tasteful TINY lettering on the slide, unlike the billboard-style of later guns, but more importantly they have the original-style barrel bushing. The 70-series bushings, with spring-loaded fingers, had a very nasty habit of breaking-off one of the fingers inside the slide, where it immediately would tie up the gun and also make dis-assembly extremely difficult. I saw this happen TWICE, to other folks' guns, so it's not a "war story".

I believe an original-style solid bushing will just drop in on a '70-series gun, and if so, it should be done forthwith.

The Commander we saw showed some exterior wear, so it was no virgin, but the bore was excellent and evrything else worked as it should. I seem to remember that the price was about $600.

Kimber makes a lightweight .45 (aluminum frame) in six-round style with 4" barrel, called the Compact Ultra Carry or something like that. If I ever get the will and the money together at the same time, it would be a sterling carry gun....even comes with tritium sights (not critical, to me) and the ambidextrous safety, which is essential to us left-siders. That would make a very fine carry gun.

Star PDs do appear occasionally at the Big Reno Show, and they're tempting, too. My need for the ambi safety has stopped any buys in that line, however. Nice gun.

The solid barrel bushing will just drop right in. On the Commanders and Combat Commanders the bushing is shorter then on the full size 1911's. My 70 Series blue Gold Cup came with that collet style bushing and has since been removed. The whole gun has been rebuilt and is a tack driver.

[Echo]

The solid barrel bushing will just drop right in. On the Commanders and Combat Commanders the bushing is shorter then on the full size 1911's. My 70 Series blue Gold Cup came with that collet style bushing and has since been removed. The whole gun has been rebuilt and is a tack driver.

In my experience, Gold Cups always needed rebuilding to become tack drivers. Even so, no top-level competitive shooters used them, that I know of. They have lightened slides, when most folks were adding ribs to increase slide weight, for example.

[9.3X62AL]

Bret's Star PD is a fine pistol. I had use of one for a couple months' time, and couldn't talk the owner out of it.

That Commander described by Bruce would be just what the doctor ordered, and made by an agency-approved maker as well. $600 is pretty fair pricing, methinks.

The Kimber Pro-Carry II is a nice package, but Kimber isn't blessed by my agency for carry--so it's a non-starter administratively. It need not make sense to be a regulation. The current "approved maker" list for the 1911A1s is Colt--S&W--SIG-Sauer--and Springfield Armory.

Something will turn up--right now, other issues are demanding attention and effort, so this goes to the back burner for a while. Joe, good-to-know item about the non-Accurizor solid barrel bushings being able to fit. I never trusted those collet things, and had a Series 70 Government Model so equipped. Other than the collet bushings, I've considered the Series 70 pistols to be pretty good units overall.