How to manufacture .30 longrange bullets with good BC ?

[closebutnocigar]

Well, we all know that it is easy to make cheap and excellent bullet for handgun shooting by casting.

It´s also possible to save a lot of money if you cast your own for rifles like 45-70 or other slow rifle catridges and leverguns.

If you cast your own for former military rifles things can get more complicated but it will work if you do it right.

There is no doubt that paperpatching can be a big advantage even for modern catridges and it is a big value if you make your own hunting bullets.



BUT

if you want to shoot a long distances (300 Meters, 600, 900 ....) with modern catridges like 300 winmag or 308 - just say one of the 30 caliber catridges - you have to buy your bullets.

I don´t like it.

I´m looking for a way to produce my own bullets like the Sierra Matchking 155 Grains PALMA (#2156), the Sierra Matchking 175 Grains (#2275) or the new 210 Grains Sierra MK (#9240).


BUT HOW ?!

Friends of mine tried to use modern lathe equipment to make these bullets from metal rods. But even modern CNC lathes don´t work so accuarte to have premium bullets - these bullets are premium hunting bullets but not mean for target shooting.


Swaging ???

As far as I know Corbin doesn´t make such HIGH BCs swaging dies - and even if they do they will be extremely expensive.

Next thing - you need a supply for jackets which is not easily found.

So I always think and wonder:

Why not cast your?

They must be a way to get a mould for a secant ogive bullet.

And if I can´t use lead - why not use another metal like zinc or something or maybe an alloy??

I´m so sure someone has tried before me - do you ever heard of such an idea?

[45 2.1]

Have a look at the 308-180 Sil. here:
http://www.brp.castpics.net/R1.html

I've been shooting these and the GB311407 in semiauto and bolt guns with very good accuracy. Most all of the boolit is supported with these. The trouble with long secant noses is that they are unsupported and will missalign theirselves when fired. Fit is all important when useing the long tapered nose boolits.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Friends of mine tried to use modern lathe equipment to make these bullets from metal rods. But even modern CNC lathes don´t work so accuarte to have premium bullets - these bullets are premium hunting bullets but not mean for target shooting.

A solid brass or copper bullet made on a good swiss machine will be more uniform than any jacketed bullet. I believe it's only a matter of the right design to get turned bullets to perform as good or even better than "ordinary" bullets - after all, Chey Tac uses solid, turned bullets for their long range sniper rifles.

I had a friend with a swiss machine shop run a batch of brass bullets of my own design: A 105 grains .270 and a 220 grains .375. Both will shoot as good as any jacketed bullet I have tried.

Don't be surprised if solid bullets turn out (pun intended) to be the next big thing. Right now they are a bit pricey, but with the number of swiss machines standing idle at the moment things could change.

[http://www.pictureshack.us/images/686IMG_0427-1.JPG (http://www.pictureshack.us/)

[StarMetal]

A solid brass or copper bullet made on a good swiss machine will be more uniform than any jacketed bullet. I believe it's only a matter of the right design to get turned bullets to perform as good or even better than "ordinary" bullets - after all, Chey Tac uses solid, turned bullets for their long range sniper rifles.

I had a friend with a swiss machine shop run a batch of brass bullets of my own design: A 105 grains .270 and a 220 grains .375. Both will shoot as good as any jacketed bullet I have tried.

Don't be surprised if solid bullets turn out (pun intended) to be the next big thing. Right now they are a bit pricey, but with the number of swiss machines standing idle at the moment things could change.

[http://www.pictureshack.us/images/686IMG_0427-1.JPG (http://www.pictureshack.us/)

Capt, that's an easy assumption considering states beginning to ban lead or lead core bullets. The one thing with them though is they are long for their weight.

[closebutnocigar]

We have tried turned solid bullets. If you don´t choose an expensive alloy they will cause a lot of dirt in the bore needing frequent cleaning even at the range.

Next thing - what ever you say, they are NOT as accurate as benchrest bullets are expected to be even if they are made on modern CNC machinery.

The cheytac bullets are part of a special rifle with a special twist rate which is made for these bullets, they are said to be very hard on the barrel.

Than there is another problem for longrange shooters: The material isn´t as dense as lead or lead alloys. Even if the shape of the bullets is perfect for long range the weight for the length isn´t adequate.

I heard that there are drilled out solids with an tungsten core.

This might cause legal problems (armor piercing act) and is very very expensive.

[closebutnocigar]

Have a look at the 308-180 Sil. here:
http://www.brp.castpics.net/R1.html

I've been shooting these and the GB311407 in semiauto and bolt guns with very good accuracy. Most all of the boolit is supported with these. The trouble with long secant noses is that they are unsupported and will missalign theirselves when fired. Fit is all important when useing the long tapered nose boolits.


This looks like a good bullet design for 100 yard / 100 Meter shooting.

:lovebooli

But what about 300, 600 or even 900 Meter ?

You can´t do it with a lead bullet in a 308 / 30-06.

If anyone can do it, please let me know.

[scrapcan]

I think one must change their paradigm when looking at cast for long range. You must think about what you want to do and if it takes special equipment and supplies to do that, the old addage of you pay to play comes to mind. And if it were sheap and easy, everyone would be doing it.

You might not be able to do it with the trajectory you are used to or the itsy bitsy 1000 yard groups you think you should get, but make no mistake you can do it. You can also do it with the big and slow 45 caliber black powder rounds. in a century + old single shot rifle.

Give these guys an idea of what game you are playing and what your expectations are and I will bet you will get some answers.

Also go to the Cast Bullet Association and request a copy of an older fouling shot publication. You will see that many routinely shoot 200 and 300 yards. You might look at those and start seeking out info from the guys who are doing the shooting to see what their thoughts are. Some of those guys are here also.

[longbow]

You might look at this group buy now in progress:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80372

I am not sure what the BC is but it must be high. If you read through the posts, there are some links to CBA results too.

For high velocity shooting over 2000 FPS you might consider paper patching. Unfortunately unless you have a fat .30 barrel or .303 you would have to size this one down a ways. You would need about 0.301" for patching to .30 cal.

Simple smooth PP moulds are pretty easy to make though.

Longbow

[Larry Gibson]

The problem with cast bullets is as 45 2.1 describes. With the smaller bores (under .38) your bullet must have a suitable bearing length to support a nose without tipping or misalignment during firing with decent enough ogive to support a BC capable of staying sonic to what ever "long range" you have in mind. The larger bore cartridges (.38 to .45 cals) do well at long range because the larger massed bullets are less susuceptable to the buffeting when they go subsonic. They also go subsonic very close to the muzzle when the angle of incidence is a minus number. Most of their trajectory is at subsonic velocities.

Assuming, with the bullets mentioned, you want to shoot a small bore rifle at long range with cast bullets. 300meters out to 500 yards is doable with numerous accurate cast bullets available today given a BC in the 250+ range. Accuracy of 2 moa for a 22 shot string is possible up through 2100 fps which means it can be done with common 10" twist barrels.

Getting to 600 yards with regular cast bullets is more difficult. It is easiest is with a .308W or 30-06 with a 12 or, preferably a 14" twist. I'm pushing 2450 fps with excellent accuracy with 311466 (the LBT bullet of 154 gr does as well) out of my .308W Palma 14" twist barrel. I also was able to get decent Expert classification level scores at 600 yards years ago with a M1903A1 '06 using 311299.

However, in my opinion, and one which I am currently pursuing, is if long range accuracy with cast bullets in small bore rifles of any sort is to be done it will be with paper patched bullets. Lyman used to have 2 such moulds availbe; 301618 at 160 gr with a BC of .30 and the 301620, at 200 gr with a BC of .379. There is a write up in Lyman's manuals on their use and also in the NRA Cast Bullet Supplement.

The 310618 is quite capable of 600 yard match level accuracy in a .308W or 30-06, especially with 12 or, preferably, a 14" twist. The heavier 200 gr 301620 is certainly a capble performer at 600 ysrds in most any 30 cal cartridge of '06 or larger capacity. Prefered twist would be 12". Lymans 311467, 311290, 311284 and 311299 when PP'd should do well also.

None will be as streamlined or have a BC any where near the MK bullets you mention. One that may do quite well PP'd and have a high BC is the "Aladin" spire point. It appears to have a very good ogive for a relative high BC and a long enough beraing surface but I've no first hand experience with it.

I've cast some 160 gr PP bullets from a custon Lee mould I got from 1874 Sharps a couple months back. It is an interesting concept using a GC with the bearing surface PP'd without patching over the GC. I'm interested to see how it does in my 14" twist .308W Palma barrel and a 10" twist '06.

Idealy the cartridge for really long range shooting (600 - 1000 yards) with such a PP'd bullet should have a large case capacity (300 Win Mag or larger) for the use of appropriate slow burning powders to achieve 2800 - 3000 fps. One of our members has already done this with a Savage rifle in .300 RUM using 311284 PP'd. He runs it at 3000 fps and gets MOA (doesn't say what the accuracy is for a 22 shot match string though). That load with a BC of .33 (at best) will stay sonic to between 800 and 900 yards. Obviously a bullet with a BC of .375 is barely adequate to 1000 yards given a 3000 fps muzzle velocity.

The case should have a long enough neck to support the bullet without the base of the bullet extending below the case neck. The throat should be just long enough that a PP'd bullet thus seated would have the PP on the begining of the ogive just off the leade. I would suspect there are several cases that could be wild catted for this. The 8mm Rem Mag or the RUM could be used. With a longer barrel and a 11 or 12" twist one should expect 2800 - 2900 fps with a 200 - 210 gr bullet. With 2850 fps with such a given bullet with a BC of .4 It will just hold 1157 fps at 1000 yards. Be better with 2900 fps as then the lower velocity half of the average velocity rounds would still be sonic at 1000 yards.

Thus we must ask ourselves can a decent 200 - 210 gr .30 cal cast bullet be made with a long enough bearing surface and have a BC of .4 or larger?

Another question is; should we also not be looking at larger caliber cast bullets for PP'ing? Perhaps 8mm with 220 gr bullets or or .338 with 250 -300 might be better?

Food for thought.....

Larry Gibson

[Harter66]

Close,

I went looking for something similar a while back . I looked around for such a slippery bullet all over in any weight. Finally I went out on a limb and "modified" a LEE mould to get where I wanted to go and with lots of reading and a little searching for the right questions to get the answers I needed here.

I have a boolit that is 1.2"long it is .5"from the base to the front driving band ,.8" base to the front edge of the bore ride. The bore ride is .302 and the bands and lube grooves are 312/300. It calculates to a .476 BC and tips in at 200 even from WW.

I'm still tweeking loads ,I've got a light load that will give me 1.5"and allows me to whack the man steel 8" center at 250yrds 6/10 and it seems to hit much higher than the Shooter lite program suggests. My rifle is a skinny bbl'd 30-06' Savage 110LH w a 1-8.5 twist.

Armed with that I was told that fit is everything . It is . This boolit gives me what I need as a plain base ,it is however a very custom 1 of a kind mould and boolit. A similar boolit with a gas check might get you close to where you want be. It does take considerable tinkering and tweeking to get it running but worth it. If I had to do it over I'd start with an uncasted mould and step drill it ,bore it ,and use a hardened finishing tools ,I just center drilled,bored and my finishing tools were cold rolled steel. Now I have to hand groove each 1.

It can be done but its work. Your friend with the lathe may be able to cut out a cavity more efficently than I did with a drill press .

[45 2.1]

This looks like a good bullet design for 100 yard / 100 Meter shooting.

:lovebooli

But what about 300, 600 or even 900 Meter ? I normally shoot to 378 yds.......... the last butt at my home range. I've shot to 600 yds with HV loads and some 1600 fps loads and gotten really good results also. If I want 800 and past, i'll go to a bigger boolit.

You can´t do it with a lead bullet in a 308 / 30-06.
Ha ha ha............. who says it hasn't already been tried and done. Your limits are about when the boolit goes transonic. That depends on the cartridges capability, boolit design and launch velocity. The Swiss straight pulls are excellent rifles to try this with.

If anyone can do it, please let me know.

[closebutnocigar]

Well, that´s really a huge lot of information - thank you very much.

I will try to take part of the group buy and hope I can get such an extremely interesting mould.

What makes we wonder: We all know the short jacket design which can be easily homemade which more simple swaging equipment (compared to the high tech swaging equipment needed for benchrest bullets).

Why not use a SHORT copper jacket and a long tip of lead?


http://www.hornady.com/store/images/T/3005.jpg


One could cast a bullet and then swage on a short jacket perhaps.

[pdawg_shooter]

Paper patched cast work fine. 300RUM, 3000+fps, MOA accuracy. Who could ask for more?