9 mm Largo loading info.

[broomhandle]

Hi All,

I picked up a Star Super at the same time I bought the 9 mm Nagant.

Can I shoot lead bullet well in the Star. The rifling looks to be deep.
I know some people have trouble with lead in a Hi-Power do to the shallow rifling they use.

Can any one hook me up to some normal range loads or a good website with published loads.
Again thanks for your help. I hate to reinvent the wheel every time I start with a new gun/ bullet.

Thanks,
broom

[lar45]

Broom, sounds like you have a nice new gun. I picked mine up about 12 years ago and reloading brass wasn't very common. So I converted it to 38 Super. Mine is the Modelo Super in 9mm Largo. Is that the same gun as yours? Then I couldn't find any extra magazines for it, so I found some from a model B or something?? and just bent the front tab down on the floor plate. They fit tight, but they do work.
Anyway the back top hood of the barrel(I used some needle files to cut a small step in there for the 38 Super semi rim to headspace on. I needed to tweak the mag lips slightly for the semi-rim to fit. Now it will fire everything 9mm. I haven't tried the 9x18 makarov, but it will shoot 9mm Largo, 38 Super, 9mm para and 380. It will feed the 380 from the mag, but doesn't have enough power to cycle the slide, only put the hammer back at half cock.

I would think that you should be able to use any 38 super load data. The Largo and super have very similar ballistics and the cases are almost identicle.
The Modelo Super looks to be a very well made heavy duty gun.
take care.
Glenn.

[broomhandle]

Hi Lar45,

I hope you don't take this the wrong way,but there seems to be a mistaken thought that 38 Super loads are safe in the 9mm Largo.

Please DO NOT load the 9x23 Largo barrel into the 38 super load range.
It will blow up sooner or later!
I found that infomation on the 9 mm Largo board. I will try to post the infomation here. Hate to see someone (you /me/ Joe Blow) get hurt.

http://www.9mmlargo.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

There was a better site but I cannot find it now!

The 9 x18 is a bigger bullet dia. .364 -- The standard 9 mm is .356 look it up yourself.
Your squeesing that bullet at least .008. that pushing the pressures up there. True it is a lower pressure load but your really working the bullet & barrel.
Do that enough then put a few 38 Supers down the tube & someone is going to have a bad day.

It is safe to use 38 acp loads in it. That I know for a fact.

Be well & safe,
broom

[9.3X62AL]

Broom--

And I thought I was the Weird Pistol Caliber maven hereabouts.....I'm a piker compared to you, sir.

You have me over a barrel on both the 9mm Largo and the 9.4 Nagant. I do have some info from Cartridges of the World for the Largo, but the Nagant is a miss all around.

Some of the "trivia questions" that crop up here amaze me.

[broomhandle]

Hi Deputy Al,

A few of my pals have various 9 mm Largo -9mm x 23 pistols.
They are good shooters .The round is a little more powerful than a regular 9 mm.
Surplus ammo is cheap & Starline cases are eazy to get.

Some guy wanted to sell the pistols at the indoor range I go to.
I happened to have a few dollars in gun money.The rest is history.

Yes! If it's odd & old. It looks like it will wind up in brooms safe!:roll:

The Belgian Nagant is a really hard pistol to track down. It seems to be a 1878 Officers model issued to Customs officials.
It looks like I did OK on the price . -Ha-Ha- I'll find out IF I sell it!

I want to shoot the Nagant but have to find bullets & a safe load.

Be well & safe,
broom

[Buckshot]

.................For 9mm Largo I'd just use 38 ACP data, as they are pretty much the same. A 124 gr slug at like 1035 fps or so. Of course if there is legitimate Largo data out there, well...............

..............Buckshot

[lar45]

Yes I know the 9mm Makarov is a larger bullet diameter.
Does anyone remember the tests in a 30-06 where they shot 8mm bullets in it?(I think that was the two calibers) They opened up the neck and throat to be able to chamber the round and then shot the 8mm down the .308 bore and DIDN"T have any pressure problems.
Some people say" you can't shoot .358 rifle bullets in a .357 revolver" But they work fine.

There is a difference between the Astra 400 pistol(weak) and the Star modelo Super.
Chronograph factory Largo ammo and it's within 50 fps of the 38 super with similar bullets.
http://www.9mmlargo.com/cartridge/loads.htm from your site has modern loads listed in excess of 38 super loads.
Looked in Quickload for max pressure
38 Super 33358 psi
9mm Bergman Baryard long(largo) 37709
9mm luger 34083

...
looking for more info to add to post...
thought I was registered at there, but can't seem to log in...

[broomhandle]

Hi Lars45,

:roll: I see the infomation & I can't argue with published data.
Thanks for posting it. :drinks:

The "sharp" guys at two sites mention that "we WILL blow up the barrel sooner or later" with 38 Super loads because of a unsupported area under the barrel, taper in the case & a few other reasons.I have to try & find the link!:confused:

Now, I don't know what to think. You can't argue with the posted pressures!

I think, I'll stick with mil. surp./ Blazer ammo. or reloads in the known 9 x23 Largo /38 ACP range.

I have five 7.62x38R Russian Nagants & loaded a small bunch of Starline cases in to the 32 H&R Mag power range.
I saw that one of the dealers (I-O) said it was safe.
The loads were a BIG STEP above the standard Focchi rounds.
The 32 H&R pressure loads fired & extracted smoothly but I don't think I'll make & shoot alot of them.
I saw a Glock come apart one time the guy was 2-3 grains over MAX.
That scared the pants off me!

Thanks for your replys

Be well & safe,
broom

[lar45]

Do you guys remember Clark over at http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ? He was into blowing guns up to find out at what pressure and what point/part in the gun let go. He got kicked off the forum for some political views he expressed loudly or something like that, anyway... I remember asking him about the Star Super, I don't remember what he said about it though. I'll have to see if I can find his e-mail address somewhere. I think he has blown up a couple of every surplus import gun he could get his hands on.

My thought in shooting all the different 9mm cartriges through it was to see if I could should I have to.

I think the Star Modelo Super is a well made gun. I really like the take down lever on the right and wish some others were so easy.
I couldn't find any extra magazines for mine, but I did find some for the model A or B??(it's been 10 years) once I bent down the floor plate tab in the front, then they were a tight fit, but did lock in place and worked.
Does anyone know if there is a source for proper magazines now?

[StarMetal]

Glen,

Try here

http://www.sarcoinc.com/mags.html#7

See if they still have any.

Joe

[broomhandle]

HI Lars45,

Yes! I remember Clark (think he posts here some times). I posted to him a few times about his "testing..."

I'm sure he is a bright guy and uses some type of safety cage around his study area.
I too see no reason to blow up a nice (or ratty) firearm. I guess, he has money to throw away.
He got a little ugly when I asked how/why, he thought he knew more about the guns & pressures in question than the guys making the guns!
I wish him well!
I have a Star Super mag. coming from a fellow in St. Louis.I bought my 32 acp Nagant cylinder of him a while back.
I think I'm going to get Largo Starline cases and load ,rather than buy the mil surp stuff.

Be well and safe,
broom:drinks:

[StarMetal]

Broomhandle,

Clarkm as he went by, is more then just a smart guy, he's a Physicist
in some sort of science. He explained once that he wasn't crazy and the tests were done safetly to determine strenght in the firearms he tested. He came up with alot of good info.

Joe

[45 2.1]

I have a Star Super mag. coming from a fellow in St. Louis.I bought my 32 acp Nagant cylinder of him a while back.
Would that be Tom Heller? He is at most of the big shows around here and is one of the best mag suppliers around.

I think I'm going to get Largo Starline cases and load ,rather than buy the mil surp stuff.
The Starline 9mm Largo cases are good quality, i've used them for about 4 years now in Stars, Destroyers and Astras.

[lar45]

http://star-firearms.com/info/index.shtml
Here is a page talking about modern Star Super handguns.
It's saying that the Model B and B Supers are made to handle 9mm +p ammo and are very strong.
It seems kind of confusing on how to distinguish between a model A and a model B.
My Super's slide is marked 9mm P, and the Model Bs were supposed to be in 9mm p while the model As were in 9mm Largo? But my barrel is marked 9mm Largo.

I got an e-mail from Clark, he sent me some of his load notes on the Largo and also Star pistols rechambered to 9x23.
some of the loads he put through these pistols is just amazing. Most ended with the primer falling out of the case, but the guns kept on working without any visible damage.
I put some of his loads in Quickload and came up with pressures in the 50-60ksi range. Quickload doesn't always work well in predicting things way off of normal. but with the primers falling out, it would seem the pressure had to be atleast 60k.
Yes I know about wear and fatique, and a gun not handling these loads all day.

Still I think it shows a definate trend that the Star Super pistols are very strong and can easily handle 38 Super, or equivalent, ammo.
Does anyone know what the pressure range is for 9mm +p? I assume the site is talking about the hot SMG ammo that was breaking the Barrettas?

[broomhandle]

Clarkm as he went by, is more then just a smart guy, he's a Physicist
in some sort of science. He explained once that he wasn't crazy and the tests were done safetly to determine strenght in the firearms he tested. He came up with alot of good info.

Joe

Hi Joe,

I'm a older guy (still have all my fingers & toes), and see no reason to push the limit on some old gun.
I'm just happy to shoot the firearm & have some accurate hits.

I wish the guys with more money & adventure in their hearts, good luck with that type of distructive testing a firearm.

Be well,
broom

[broomhandle]

Hi 45 2.1,

No it's not Tom H. I bought a few things from him off the Luger board. Nice guy good to deal with. (He helped me out a few times)

I bought the 9mm Largo Super mag for "Bob in St. Louis." He seems to be a small dealer/ collector. (my guess)
All the guys at Tuco's board that have bought for him are very happy with him.

I had the Nagant 32acp cylinder with in 5-6 days from placing the order. It was still in the original wrapping. It has worked well in all five of my pistols.

Be well,
broom

[StarMetal]

Broomhandle,

I believe Clark did it to study the strenghts and weaknesses of various guns, not to push the envelope. Look at it this way, say it's said that a certain handgun is built like a vault and that you can reload for it and within reason not worry about blowing up the gun. Well Clark took this supposely vault strong build gun and tested it to destruction. What he found was guns people thought real strong were not. I belive that's the whole drift of his testing, not to push the envelope.

Joe

[lar45]

Exactly. He did a work up on the CZ 52, which people were saying that the roller locking mechanism was supposed to be ultra strong. The roller locking was strong, but the barrels let go at much lower pressures than the chinese Tokarev. I think he found out that the UGLY Chineese Tok could handle loads that left the primers falling out and still keep Toking.

From Clarkm's notes. He later says that welding up the barrel isn't needed.
--THIS IS NOT LOAD DATA--Pressure probably 70,000 psi +
12) Star Super B with FAC barrel and welded up and re cut breech
10 gr. LONGSHOT, 158 gr. LSWC .358", 1.29" OAL, brass chewed up, recoil
horrendous, stopped work up
--THIS IS NOT LOAD DATA--

So it's good to know that the Star Super guns are strong and we don't have to worry about babying them.
BTW, I slugged my Super's barrel and it is .3585"

This is similar to the guy on this forum that intentionaly over loaded a Mosin Nagant until the brass liquified and the gun failed. The gun still did not blow apart.
I don't remember all the details. He clamped the barreled action in a vise with a 20mm ammo can as a scatter shield. I remember doing a quickload simulation of his loads and the calculated pressure was around 140,000 psi or something like that.
This definatly shed more light on the gun and the gun mags saying that they were weak and should only be loaded up around 45ksi.

[Oldfeller]

I own me a slightly beat up Star Super. Star Supers are neat as they will headspace and eject cleanly off the ejector hook -- no matter what 9mm type brass is used. Ditto goes for the other Star Largo pistol, the ugly round recoil spring barrel one that all the gun writers rave about all the time for eating anything. Them Spaniards had a thing about hell for strong ejector hooks, that's for sure.

Back when they first came into the country they sold for $99 at my local gun store and they had zero modern ammo available and a limited supply of VERY expensive corrosive mil surp ammo ($4.99 for a 20 pack). I bought the gun, it came with a range pass for the indoor range -- but no ammo.

I was back the next saturday AM with my pistol satchel containing my new pistol, a cleaning kit and enough tools to move the rear sight around. I got a free target, took out my muffs, cleared the gun and went into the range. I got some puzzled looks from the guy who sold me the gun as I had forgotten to buy any of his $4.99 for a 20 pack rape me ammo.

I started shooting and tuning in the sights. I fired about 250 rounds and got it all tuned and sighted in. Gun would cut a 1 foot group at 30 yards (all the way back to the very back of the range). Of course I could SEE BETTER back then, but that is a different story now.

When I came out they just had to know what I was shooting (I had shot more ammo than they had, period). Answer was very simple and cheap, a LEE 158 grain round nose slug seated in 9mm brass over 4 something grains of Unique. Bullet was seated out to fill the magazine up but since it was so long anyway the lube groove was still inside the case. The gun shot variants of this load for years before things changed significantly about ammo availability.

I eventually bought a 9x19 stainless barrel from Federal Arms when they came out, the barrels were brittle metal compared to the stock barrel (the recoil lug broke off the barrel fairly quickly). They replaced it with a piece of **** barrel that someone had attempted to "fit" to the guns (loose as all get out) but I never pursued it again as the barrel was the same brittle **** stainless steel as the first one and quickly failed at the same point while shooting much enlarged groups compared to the tighter fitted first barrel. (yes, I was loading it hot just to see if it would fail the same way as I wasn't going to leave a failure-prone barrel in the gun to fail on me when I needed it)

The gun (original miltary barrel) would digest 9mm Super brass (I bought me some when it came out) but the barrel lug and the turning pin weren't up to Super loadings, not even close, not without some significant battering taking place on the lug and the pin (and this is with a stronger recoil spring from Wolf). I fixed up the battering as well as I could and dropped the loading back down to a non-damaging level.

Still got it for a car or house beater pistol, still loaded with 125 grain hollow points over a hottish load of Unique -- clearly more than 9mm, clearly less than 9mm Super. It still shoots as good as I can see (but most all guns can do that now with no sweat).

It is a biggish heavy gun, not far off the weight of a 1911 Colt. For the caliber of round it shoots a Glock 17 actually suits me better. For the money and at the time they were cheap, it was a hell of a lot better gun than a 7.65x25 anything -- a much prettier gun.

Oldfeller

[StarMetal]

Lars45,

Clarkm told me that on the CZ52 the cuts in the slide that the rollers locked into weakened it and that the slide cracked there. Other then that the pistol was brute strong. He said the Russian and Chinese Tokarevs actually beat it in strength. I don't know how many forum member own Tokarevs, but they are really trim pistols. I think they are more along the lines of the old Colt 38 autos then the 1911 as far as size. Maybe inbetween the two. For the Tokarev to beat the CZ52 in a blowup test to me is amazing.

Joe

[broomhandle]

Hi Oldfeller,

I was going to look for a 9 x19 Federal barrel, I think i'll pass on it now. :(

I may try a steel spacer made from a Wolf 9 mm case & locktight it place.

The new Starline brass still seems to be a good idea. Blazer alum. cases ammo still seems to be out there for about $14 a box.

Be well & safe,
broom

[lar45]

Joe, I bought a Chinese Tok about 10 years ago when I had my FFL. I never shot it though, I traded it in on a 4" SS GP-100 357 mag. The guy seemed real happy to get it. I guess now I know why.

With my Stars barrel slugging .358", I may have to see if I can get it to shoot my C358-180 RFs.

Too many projects, not enough time.

[StarMetal]

Lar45,

I bought a Chinese Tokie. Hell of a pistol. I was impressed. I also have the CZ52. Being I worked on these pistol, that is made a trigger stop, extended slide release, and fixed front target sight on the Tokie, and just a fixed front target sight on the CZ, I can the steel in the CZ slide is almost like armor plate. Very hard stuff. That's not to say that the Tokie was soft. The Tokie out shoots my CZ for group size. I like the feel of the CZ grip better then the Tokie. But those too guns sit in the gunsafe as I'm really hooked on 30 Lugers. Got four..One original P08 Luger, a Benelli B80, a swap barrel for my Browing Hi Power, and I made a swap barrel for my 1911 Gold Cup.

Joe

[Oldfeller]

Broomhandle,

If you are going to load sanely (I didn't ever intend to) you likely would never have any trouble out of the Federal Arms barrels.

Federal Arms is gone now anyway, isn't it??

Anyhow, I still got the third barrel they send me -- I'd be reluctant to sell it as my plan was to put it in when time came to peddle the pistol as a 9x19 would sell a whole lot better than a 9mm Largo pistol would.

Oldfeller

[broomhandle]

Hi Oldfeller,

My Star Super has a Browning/ Beretta type barrel link.
I think the Super A & B models have the swinging link type like a 1911.
What type is your spare barrel?
Someone bought up Federals parts and is selling them off.

Thanks for your replys.
broom

[lar45]

Pic of Super B barrels, the middle one is supposed to be a Korean import.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=410947
The regular Star pistols, model A, B... have a swinging link similar to the 1911.
The Star Super pistols, model A, B... even a 380 model, have the fixed lug on the bottom of the barrel that cams the barrel open and closed. The Super designation also includes the quick takedown lever on the right side.

More info on the Star pistols here.
http://star-firearms.com/info/index.shtml Look at bottom of page for strength statement about 9mm +p
Also has manuals in pdf format.

[broomhandle]

Hi All,

Who has the best prices on Starline Largo cases?

I have looked a little bit & Grafs seems to be the best buy so far.

Thanks for any help.
broom

[swheeler]

BroomH; there is published data in Laser-Cast first edition page 54- 55. Not much data , but some for a start. HP38,WW231,AA#2,700X with 124 gr RN.
"These loads are safe for older Astras in good condition"
Scot

[broomhandle]

Hi Fellows,

I ordered 500 9 mm Largo cases from Graf. My need for odd old bullets continues.:roll:
I should finish loading the 7.62x38R Nagant ammo today.:drinks:

Be well,
broom

[lar45]

Broom, did you happen to slug your barrel?
With mine slugging at .3585", I think I'll try some of the C358-180s in it. When seated to 1.27" they will fit the magazine, but need to be 1.24" to chamber.
I saw that Wolf has stronger recoil springs for them.
http://www.gunsprings.com/
It looks like I can size/deprime with a 357 or 9mm size die, but will need to expand with the 357 one. I haven't checked to see if the 9mm seat/crimp die will work or not.
I did cut off a couple 223 cases. The brass is thicker at the new mouth, but with regular length bullets, it will chamber fine.
I think I will have to get some Starline Largo cases.

I've been doing some more reading on the Star pistols, It looks like they made a model P in 45 ACP and also had a Super P in 45 acp. I think I may have to have one.

[broomhandle]

Hi Lars,


I hope so!

Thanks to ALL posters, for your help with loads and general infomation on this pistol.
I shot up 50 rounds of Blazer ammo tonight!:Fire:

I have one box of 50 left.

Be safe,
broom

[broomhandle]

Hi Fellows,

I lost half my post for some reason.

I ordered Largo Starline cases from Grafs. They (Grafs) ordered 3000 cases last week They should have them next week. 1500 were on hold by today.
You may want to place an order soon.


Be well,
broom

[tinsmith]

I'm thinking about buying a Star Super in 9mm Largo. They have one really cheap at the local pawn shop. It's wierd enough to interest me. And form reading the above, seems to be a good strong gun.
Question? I can buy Starline brass, no problem. Can I load the Largo with my 9X19 Parabellum dies after making the appropriate adjustments to the dies?

Jeff

[Harry O]

I have an Astra 400 in 9mm Largo. I have a 9x19/9x21/9x23mm die set from RCBS that cost much less than a 9mm Largo set. Starline has 9mm Largo cases, but I bought a bunch of 9x23 cases on Ebay (back when they allowed cases to be sold) for less. The exterior dimensions are the same for the 9x23 and the 9mm Largo within 0.001" or 0.002" in all dimensions. The interior is a little bit less, but that is not of consequence at the pressures the Largo is loaded at. I load my 9mm Luger and 9mm Largo with the same bullet, same powder, and same powder charge. The handloaded 9x23/Largo loads work well in the Astra.

I also have a Star Super-B in 9mm Luger. It appears to be a strong gun to me. I have not pushed it, but I have loaded and shot many full power Luger handloads through it without problems of any kind.

Actually, it is not difficult to tell the Star A, Super-A, B, and Super-B apart. There is a 9mm Largo webpage that has a lot of information and the Star company in Spain has a webage with a lot of information on older guns. BTW, the magazines are different in each.

Both the A's are in 9mm Largo. Both the B's are in 9mm Luger. Both the A and B (which were produced at the same time, but in different calibers) are internally similar to a Colt 1911 (swinging link setup). The were produced from the early-1920's to 1945. Both the Super-A and Super-B (which were produced at the same time, but in different calibers) are internally similar to a Browing P-35 (sliding barrel, without a link). They began production in 1946 and went until Star went bankrupt in the early 1980's. Since I got mine, I has seen MANY incorrect listings on the gun auction websites.