8x57 cast boolits: Filler or no???

[Tedly]

Been asking questions here mostly about 8mmMauser and Lyman mould cast #323481 @ 200 gr. I see some guys using 2400, X5744, 4198, etc. very light charges. Also noticed afew using 4895 @ 28-30 grs. Which powders get a filler in the case,which don't? Why? Can I use cream of wheat as I don't have any Dacron or such around here...Thanks, Tedly

[Blammer]

I don't use any filler in mine.

[damron g]

I don’t use fillers or wads with the first three mentioned and get good uniformity like 16.0 of 2400 with a 245 g bullet in the "8"for 1450 fps. I have never used 4895 in the 8 x 57 but have used 30.0 in the 308 with no fillers and 200g bullets with good luck. I would say start without fillers or wads and try them later to tune up the load. In the CBA military rifle class a very common load in 30-06 and 7.62 x 54 with 2400 and 5744 is 16.0 to 18.0 and very few use fillers. Those two doesn’t seem to need wads or fillers to shoot accurately in the '06 or Russian case.

George

[TCLouis]

I use 21.5 gr. of MilSurp 4759 with no filler and the 175 grain RNFP GC Broup buy boolit.

[mooman76]

Dryer lint works just like Dacron.

[longbow]

Can't say specifically for 8mm but I have been using COW or cornmeal in .303 Brit under a Lyman 314299 at 200 grs. quite successfully.

I am of the opinion that the granular fillers provide a few benefits and I have as yet to have any problems. To qualify, I worked loads up using the filler. Since case volume is reduced, pressures will rise so you can't just go dropping a bunch of filler into an established high pressure load. Start low and increase powder, reducing filler as you go.

The weight of the filler has to be considered as well but I cannot see it being significant unless you are pushing pressure limits because it is a very small percentage of bullet weight when using heavy bullets.

There are several reasons I like the granular filler over puffy fillers:

- I am getting the same performance from PB or GC bullets without gas checks over filler as I get using gas checks and no filler ~ not pushing velocities here but those are my results
- 100% loading density so more efficient ignition and burning of powder
- 100% loading desnity so no chance of double charging
- easier and cheaper than gas checks
- no leading

Generally I am using IMR4227 or IMR4198 so more than 1/2 full case of powder but I have used it with Unique as well and done some work with IMR4064 and IMR4320. The faster powders do not need filler for consistent burn and accuracy but again, without a gas check the filler works well. Having said that, I would approach filler with faster powders like Unique, 2400 and the like with caution because pressures can rise rapidly with small changes ~ be careful.

The subject of filler is pretty controversial. Some swear by them, some swear at them, some say cereal fillers are not safe and some say fluffy fillers are not safe, some say no granular fillers in bottleneck cases. If you are going to use them read everything you can find then proceed with caution.

Here are a couple of links regarding fillers and cast bullets:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

And from our very own Cast Boolit site:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72897

None specifically 8mm but all bottleneck cases and to make a point, the 6.5 Swede has a much more pronounced shoulder than my .303 so if it is okay, your 8mm should be okay.

Also, as a final comment, I have been using COW mostly and with good success but I have to agree that the shotgun buffer should be superior. I have not tried it but will when I get some. You might consider that if it is available to you.

Have fun but play safe!

Longbow

[jonk]

The use of fillers is usually for reduced charges of medium burn rifle powders like 4895. 28 gr might ignite safely but there isn't enough powder to generate pressure for a consistent burn. In other words, one shot might go down at 1500 fps, the next at 1800 fps. The use of filler increases load density and keeps the powder near the primer, and improves shot to shot consistency.

Whether you need one depends on powder and bullet weight.

For a 200 gr bullet with 28-30 gr of 4895, I personally don't think it is needed. For a 175, borderline.

[Larry Gibson]

I use a dacron filler with medium and slow burning rifle powders if the powder charge is less than 85% loading density when loading medium and heavy for caliber weight bullets.

With light weight for caliber cast bullets I use a dacron filler with the slower burning pistol or faster burning rifle powders (2400, 5744, 4227. 4759, 4198, etc) in cases where loading density is less than 50%.

With fast burning pistol powders I do not use a filler or a wad in any case.

Specifically with the 8x57;

With 160 gr Lyman 323470 160 gr GC bullet I use 4895 (28 gr is a good load) with a 1.2 gr dacron filler.

With the GB Lee 190 gr GC bullet 28 gr of 4895 with a 1/2 gr dacron filler is a very good starting load. Velocity is 1750 fps or so and accuracy is excellent. I recently shot several hundred of these and will be shooting a couple hundred more in a couple weeks. Accuracy is excellent in my M48 and VZ24/47. I'd cast them of 50/50 WW/pb and push them to 2100 fps (31-32 gr 4895) or so for a very good deer hunting load.

I also shoot the Lyman 323470 215 gr bullet in solid and HP format over 4895 with the 1/2 gr dacron filler. Again 28 gr is a good starting load and pleasant to shoot. If I push this one faster I usually go with H4831 or RL22 and a 1/2 gr dacron filler.

I also shoot the GB PB'd cast bullet over Bullseye for around 1150 - 1200 fps. No filler or wad is used.

If I were going to used 2400, 4227, 4759, 5744 or 4198 with the 200 gr bullet I would try loads with and without the dacron filler. It is generally a coin toss as to which will work the best giving the most uniform ignition which most often translates into accuracy.

Dacron is a commercial name. It is actually polyester and sold as "batting" or in bulk in most sewign/fabric stores. Walmart, etc. stores with sewing/fabric sections most often have it also. Pillow stuffing is the same thing. It is not hard to find, a little goes a long ways and it is easiest to use. If you get some and want instructions on use don't hesitate to ask.

Larry Gibson

[longbow]

Also, I forgot to include this. No fillers in these loads but lots of good info to digest.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

Longbow

[runfiverun]

llike larry jon and mooman said.
filler and 4895.
i done a test in the argie it cut deviations by 150 fps swings to about 20.
three rifles two different boolits and two powders.
it also shrank groups considerably.
the start area is h-322 for me and don't quit till i get slow enough for over 85% density.
dryer lint is my filler of choice and the lint with dog hair seems a bit more accurate than the ones with cat hair. :lol:
the slower pistol powders seem a bit more sensitive to primers than fillers but do respond to case position.
i have even seen some shoot better with the powder against the boolit.

[damron g]

"i have even seen some shoot better with the powder against the boolit."


When i was shooting w296 in the 308 in the CBA in the 1990's i ran a test with powder level,against the bullet and against the primer.Uniformity was equal,but velocity averages were just a bit different.I just cant remeber the specifics.I shoot 8.0 of BullsEye in 30-06 loads with plainbase bullets and standard dev's are often single digit with no fillers.I dont see any use for fillers or wads with pistol powders.I even shoot 12.0-13.0 of Unique in the 375 H&H without fillers and get fantastic accuracy.

George

[Char-Gar]

Tedly... The discussion on fillers has been an ongoing topic for many years on this board. There has never been agreement, but there have been some themes that seem to be repeated year after year. Here is my take on the subject at hand.

1. Don't use fillers will small charges of fast powders such as Unique, 2400 and the like.
2. With charges of medium to slow burning powders ,fillers in some cases can improve burn consistency and therefore accuracy.
3. I won't consider a filler unless the powder change is about 65 or 70 % of case capacity.
4. Natural fillers such as COW do from time to time absorb moisture and turn into a hard cake. In a bottle neck case, this can cause a significant boost in pressure.
5. For a number of reasons I prefer to use shot shell buffer asa filler. In the old days it was SuperGrex but today it is the stuff sold by Precision.

The subject of fillers is always interesting, but the above is my filler theory.

[Mike Venturino]

Today I shot a new-to-me 8mm Mauser for the first time with cast bullets. It is a parts rifle made up of a bunch of different European stuff and has a 4x12X Simmons scope. I had fired about 40 rounds of jacketed stuff through it last week and didn't clean it afterwards.

Bullets were from Redding/SAECO mould #081, weighing about 190 grains of straight linotype. They were seated and crimped over 27 grains of 5744 with NO FILLER in Remington brass with Remington #9 1/2 primers.

The group was 1 3/4 inches at 100 yards. Velocity was 1910 fps with a variation of 28 fps in the five rounds.

I'm just tossing this in for what its worth.

MLV

[damron g]

'I had fired about 40 rounds of jacketed stuff through it last week and didn't clean it afterwards"

Its a bit off-track of the thread, but i bought a Turk 98 that had a good bit if metal fouling and 200-300 rnds of low velocity 1300 fps plain base bullets(8mm Nambu 115g bullet to be exact) seemed to clean it out.it never shot really bad with the fouling, but definitely did better after the initial shooting. Load was 6.0 of Bullseye, no filler and SD's were 15-25.It’s a 1" per 25 yard load and a fine cheap plinker/squirrel demiser. The .310 Cadet RCBS bullet also works well as does the Ideal 32359.

George Damron

[Shiloh]

I've never used fillers myself. The posts in this threat from those not using them buoy my resolve.

Shiloh

[excess650]

I shot some 225gr from a ratty Turk 8mm today. I chose to try 5744 first since I had used it in a 8x57JR combination gun with good results, and in my 7.5x55 SR.

I had cleaned and cleaned and cleaned until I couldn't get any copper or other fouling out of the bore. Looking closely now, it appears that the grooves have a frosted appearance, and alternates between loose and tight on a snug solvent patch, so I didn't hold much hope for the barrel....that and the fact that it was shortend with a hacksaw and recrowned with a file and square:roll: Its OK as none of the numbers match, and I only intended it to be a "truck gun" anyway. IF it shot close to 2" at 50 yards I figured it to be useable.

I should add that I had checked the throat and bore for dimensions prior to even thinking about getting it to shoot. It seems to be .326+ on the throat and closer to .325" on the groove diameter. My bullet is .3265" from my Lyman .325 sizer die:veryconfu, but that's a good thing- at least I don't have to try and lap it larger. The alloy is about 15bhn.

After a few shots at 25 yards to see IF I could hit the paper, I moved to 50 yards. The first 4 shots with 18gr 5744 were nearly touching.:bigsmyl2: 19gr and 20gr seemed to open up to 2-1/2", but 21gr was closer to 1-1/2". I didn't have any heavier loads to try, but I DO have some loaded for the next range session.

My 8x57JR is a rifle/shotgun combo from early in the 20th century. I used 18gr 5744 in that with the tapered Saeco 200gr 32-40 bullet with surprisingly good results for the first try. IIRC the bullets were 25-1 with a BP lube, and just a few bands in the case.

My 7.5x55 liked 21-22gr 5744 in a WW 284Win case, F210 primer, and Saeco #315 sized .310". Lighter and heavier loads didn't shoot as well.

Oh yeah, no filler with 5744.

[Larry Gibson]

Simple enough; with that weight bullet (200 gr) no filler is needed for 2400, 5744, 4227 or 4198.

Those of us (there are a great many of us BTW) who do use fillers with some combinations of bullet weight and powders are pretty much in agreement with te above statement. There is no case made against the use of fillers, should per chance that is anyone's intention, by not using a filler with those powers.

Larry Gibson

[303Guy]

Just be careful of cotton-wool filler. It works great and cleans the bore too, BUT, it can me made to burn and set the countryside on fire! It's not that easy to make it burn but I have done so quite successfully![smilie=1:

[Larry Gibson]

Just be careful of cotton-wool filler. It works great and cleans the bore too, BUT, it can me made to burn and set the countryside on fire! It's not that easy to make it burn but I have done so quite successfully![smilie=1:

That is a fact! I have stomped out several such fires started by cotten filler/wads:-(

Lary Gibson