.45acp leading ...questions [Archive]

Thinktwicez71

04-05-2010, 10:15 PM

my buddy got a new kimber eclipse II Stainless , 5" barrel. Shot about 300 winchester factory loads and wanted some cast ones. i made up some wheel weight lead boolits (water quenched) and sized them in a .452 lee sizer and loaded them with WLPP and 5 grains of bullseye. Leaded horribly after only 16 shots (2 mags). Cleaned forever to get it out and then i tried 5.5 grains bullseye , same thing , 16 shots leaded horribly. The leading is only in the first inch and a half of the barrel near the forcing cone area , the rest of the barrel is clean.

1. My first lead boolits where hard as hell , and i couldn't scratch em with a finger nail. I remelted them all (700) and remade new one's without water quenching them , i had them tested today and they have a bhn of 9.

2. we slugged the barrel tonight , it measured .4515

3. my lee sizer that is supposed to size them to .452 , actually sizes them to .451 , what do i do about that ?

4. once i figure out how to make a .453 bullet to take care of the gas cutting problem , what should i start at for a load with a bhn of 9 ? 3.8 bulseye ?

thanks guys ......very confusing , but trying my best to figure this all out , i got about 300lbs of wheel weights , and my buddy works at a chevy dealership , so lifetime free bullets , i get em faster than i can cast and shoot em lol

ps......bullet is a lee 200gr Swc , h&g68 copy , (i grease groove)

sagacious

04-05-2010, 10:29 PM

That LEE bullet works very well for me with a moderate charge of WW231, and cast from acww's or range scrap. Without exaggeration, it shoots with astonishing accuracy and I never get any leading at all. None. I can shoot hundreds of rounds and the barrel remains shiny clean. I size to .4525" for .451" barrels, and that works in my Sig220's, 1911's, and H&K's.

Once you get your sizing fixed, specific bullet hardness may be less of an issue than specific powder charge. Start low, and work up to see what works best with your gun. You might wish to try acww's before going back to quenched bullets. Either way, and as you note, the sizing is the main factor to control. You can lap the LEE sizer out .002" with 320grit wet/dry sandpaper, and polish with a finer grit.

Best of luck. :drinks:

sst04

04-05-2010, 10:30 PM

Make sure the mold is droping them 452 all the way around.

ETA, I had this same problem with my Lyman mold, I measured after sizing and they were 451 or so and leading my barrel a little. Turns out the mold was casting out of round, would measure 452 on one side and 450ish when measured at another place.

Thinktwicez71

04-05-2010, 10:34 PM

Grampie not Grumpie

04-05-2010, 10:35 PM

Cast Boolits with a BHN of 9 needs a pressure of 12,600 psi to seal the bore. (BHN 9 X 1400 = 12,600.) This is with the PROPER Boolit diameter. 4.8 gr. of Bullseye should give you 12,950 which would be in the ballpark. 5.0 gr. would give you almost 14,000 which might be a little too hot. There are too many varables to be dogmatic.

Hope this helps,

Grampie not Grumpie,

RobS

04-05-2010, 10:37 PM

What are your as cast diameters of the bullets you are casting. If they are .453 I would try to shoot them that a way. sagacious has it right on the lee push through die. I too have done this before. I actually used a 3/8" split rod (a metal rod with a thin slit in it about an inch or so virtically down) and wrapped the rod with a strip of wet/dry sand paper as was already stated. I then chuck it in my drill and spin it; it doesn't take much so go easy and just have yourself a bunch of unsized bullets to test while you work the die over.

I would say that the biggest problem is an undersized bullet.

RobS

04-05-2010, 10:41 PM

another question i have is this , i was using the lee factory crimp die on the 32 shots we fired in his gun , is it also true that i read on here that it actually makes my cast boolits smaller than i want them ? so i should avoid using that on cast and just buy a normal taper crimp die to do my crimping on my cast boolits ?

A lee factory crimp can swage down your bullets and if you feel any resistence as you run through that stage then it is working the sides of the brass down which in turn squeezes down the bullet too. If in question just pull a bullet and measure it. I personally have had this problem and I too have a .451 groove diameter with my 45 acp. Others have used the Lee FCD and have not had any problems though and it could be that their firearms groove diameter is smaller so the swaged down bullet from the FCD may not be giving them the same effect of a larger groove diametered barrel.

chris in va

04-05-2010, 10:47 PM

FWIW, I shoot a Lee 452 tumble lube 230 grainer out of a Sig 220 with very little leading. Bullseye, 231, Unique...all the same results.

No sizing at all, air cooled.

Grampie not Grumpie

04-05-2010, 10:48 PM

Another comment. Lee's .45 ACP Factory Crimp Die in the 4 die carbide set is a TAPER crimp die. In the .45 Colt set it is a roll crimp for the groove in the boolit.

I recently had to pull a bunch of .452 Cast Boolits because they were too had for the powder charge. I had loaded them and crimped them with my Lee FCD. When I pulled them I measured them and they were still .452; they hadn't changed. When loaded in the Revolver they dropped out of the cylinder of my .45 Colt by gravity.

Grampie not Grumpie,

dabsond

04-05-2010, 11:09 PM

I've used the 200gr SWC, water dropped with the 4.0 gr load as listed in the Lee reloading manual. I had excellent accuracy results and zero leading.

runfiverun

04-06-2010, 12:42 AM

fix the sizer simple to do. a dowell with a slit and some crokus cloth some oil and roll on your leg measure often by running a boolit through.
stop using the fcd,,, even easier.
452 should work fine with air cooled.

243winxb

04-06-2010, 07:34 AM

Air Cool the Boolits, Lube well. Correct diameter is .452" NO FCD http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi
Cast bullet leading

A clue to what is causing the leading is where the leading first begins to appear. If it appears near the chamber, chances are that bullet diameter or hardness are the cause.

A diameter too small and/or too hard an alloy will allow high pressure gas to leak past the bullet, which erodes the bullet and leaves leading near the chamber.

If the leading first appears on the leading edge of the rifling (if you imagine the bullet being pushed through the barrel, you will note that one edge of the rifling does most of the work of imparting a spin to the bullet. This is the edge you see when you look through the barrel from the breech end) the bullet might be too soft, and/or the velocity too high.

If the leading appears in the second half of the barrel, the bullet is running out of lube. You should see a star shaped pattern of lube accumulate on the muzzle. This is an indication that there is a little excess lube.

gasboffer

04-06-2010, 09:43 AM

Are you hunting dangerous game with that load?(5.0 gr. Bullseye) Try 4.5 gr. Bullseye.

04-06-2010, 10:29 AM

This sounds like it could be a combination of three things:

1. Lack of throat in the new Kimber. I've seen this many times. The check is to fire a single round and then have a close look in the chamber end of the barrel for the small lead shavings peeled out by the abrupt start of the lands.

2. Poor quality control on the Lee sizing die failing to give you the .452 needed for your .4515 barrel. This can cause leading all by itself, and will can really build up leading fast in combination with a lack of throat.

3. Poor quality control in the finished diameter of the Lee FCD causing the boolit to get sized even smaller, increasing the leading even more.

If it were me, I'd try a single "as cast" boolit loaded without the FCD and look for the little shavings as a starting point. The barrel can be throated, The sizing die can be honed, And the FCD can be returned, or just not used.

BD

Thinktwicez71

04-07-2010, 08:20 PM

made up about 36 bullets today and shot them out of the kimber. I loaded them with 4.8 of bullseye as per grampie not grumpies info , the leading wasn't as bad . but still leaded a good bit , with it all smeared in the chamber end of the barrel. The leading seamed to be alot worse on the top part of the barrel and not so much the bottom. Where should i go from here ?

this was with the bullets sized to .4525-.453 , crimped to .469 WITHOUT the lfcd , overall lendth to 1.230 as per the lyman manual WLR primers

Bulltipper

04-07-2010, 08:30 PM

What are you using for lube?

MtGun44

04-07-2010, 09:28 PM

Yes, sounds like lube is the next item up. One other possibility is a rough or jacket
fouled bore. How does it look?

Running a few hundred jacketed thru it, cleaning to bare metal every
10-20 rounds, will help smooth up a rough bore a lot. If you have just put 300 jacketed
without cleaning out the jacket fouling, this may be the issue by itself, or you may
also have a rough bore. Try scrubbing out any lead then use a copper solvent type
cleaner like Hoppes #9 or stronger (ammonia works, just don''t leave it in long and
water wet patch then Hoppes #9 after) to get down to bare steel. Then try your
.453 with 50-50 NRA formula lube as a 'known good' starting point. At 4.8 gr BE
and this boolit design with good lube you are in well trod territory and should not
lead.

The basics are fit, boolit design, and lube quality. You seem to be very close.

Thinktwicez71

04-07-2010, 09:32 PM

i was lee alox tumble lubeing them , sizeing them in my die , and then lubeing them again.

His barrel is cleaned after each shooting session , maybee 100 rounds max , so the barrel was squeeky clean before we started. his barrel is really smooth , not rough at all.

is there any way to lube them , other than going out and buying a sizer , or pan lubeing ? can you finger apply it ? just so i can see if it is actually the lube before going out and buying a lyman 4500 just to find out that wasn't it either ?

Bulltipper

04-07-2010, 09:41 PM

Yes, the old timers finger lubed them and i suggest you try that. Kimber is a great Mfr and you guys may have a little copper fouling in there, you can't see it real easy without a borescope, not like lead anyway but if you have some copper fouling, your lead will stick to it more that a clean barrel. you will find your copper fouling in the chamber end of the barrel and it sounds like that is where your worst leading is. I shoot a kimber custom ll and i shoot lead exclusivly. i use a homemade lube of beeswax, white grease, ATF and paraffin (recipe from this board and modified a little) and i have almost no leading at all. Kimber doesn't make bad barrels so i think you are looking at a lube and sizing issue with a possibility of some copper in the throat. (copper is a bi*** to clean out by the way) Good luck, keep at it and you will have a great time when you get it figured out.

Thinktwicez71

04-07-2010, 09:52 PM

thanks bulltipper , so what type of lube do you suggest i finger apply ? can i buy a bullet lube somwhere and just put some in the grove , or do i need to find the mix on here and make that and use that ?

Thinktwicez71

04-07-2010, 10:08 PM

one more thing , i though swc bullets left a nice clean circle hole in paper ? the ones we are shooting that i made are rough ragged holes , but if i shoot some of the 185gr hornady xtp jhp bullets they leave a perfect circle , are my bullets tumbleing , or am i wrong to think my 200gr SWC are supposed to be like the hornady holes ?

Bulltipper

04-07-2010, 10:08 PM

You are going to want something fairly soft. The commercial offerings i have used are pretty hard and would be difficult to apply without a press. Look at some of the recipes in the lube section, find one that has ingredients that you already have or have most of and make a small batch. You will learn something and have some more fun while you are at it. Oh, and don't screw up your old lady's kitchen with a lube mess like i did. it's hard to clean as copper fouling...

prickett

04-07-2010, 11:08 PM

You can lap the LEE sizer out .002" with 320grit wet/dry sandpaper, and polish with a finer grit.

Best of luck. :drinks:

Or, you can send the sizer back to Lee and they'll fix it. I have 4 sizers and all 4 size to .001 less than what is stated :-(. I sent Lee an email and they said to return them for correction.

Bkid

04-08-2010, 09:33 AM

Or, you can send the sizer back to Lee and they'll fix it. I have 4 sizers and all 4 size to .001 less than what is stated :-(. I sent Lee an email and they said to return them for correction.

That is great news . Best thing I have heard on the lee sizer. Thank you!

Bulltipper

04-08-2010, 11:12 AM

Bkid, I love your Cooper Quote!...

243winxb

04-08-2010, 11:36 AM

Find lubes here > http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/index.html Make sure you Alox is applyed correctly with the proper amount.
Liquid Alox application

Best results in applying liquid alox are when the alox is heated before applying, or thinned with paint thinner. This makes it flow more easily, and results in a more even coat. One technique is to boil water and pour it into a coffee mug, and then drop the bottle of liquid alox into the mug for about five minutes.

Place your freshly cast bullets into something about the size of a Cool Whip bowl and drop a few drops of liquid Alox on the bullets. Mix the bullets around until they are all coated. Lay the freshly coated bullets on some wax paper to dry. Liquid alox will usually dry enough overnight to reload the next day, depending upon the humidity. Tacky bullets can be dusted with powdered graphite.

If you subscribe to the "more is better" line of thought, your coated bullets may never dry. Don't go for a "golden" color but rather just a light varnish. If you discover that your bullets are sticky the next day, you can get by with using a little less the next time. Keep reducing until the "stickiness" is gone by the next day.

If you are sizing your cast bullets, it is necessary to lube them first. Because the sizer will remove some of the surface of a larger diameter bullet, you may need to re-lubricate the bullets after they have been sized.

Many of our bullets are of the "TL" or Tumble Lube design. These bullets have many shallow grooves that are perfect for allowing Liquid Alox to adhere to a great amount of surface. It has been reported that the accuracy of these bullets is high.

Thinktwicez71

06-30-2010, 09:01 PM

ok guys , since my last post i bought a new springfield 1911 trp in stainless , (sweet gun ) anyways i tried my cast bullets in my gun and i got leading too. so i did some more discovering and i found out what the problem is , i just don't know how to fix it. bores are both .451 , bullets are cast and sized to .4525 - .452 , i pulled a few bullets and they where .451 , so they are being sized as i seat the bullet in the case. my crimp is only enough to take the flare out of the case , and i am not useing the lee factory crimp die. crimping to .470-.471

how do i adjust my dies so my bullet stays the same diameter as what i size it to ?

thanks - Art

462

06-30-2010, 09:55 PM

Art,
1. Do you seat and crimp in the same step? If so, use two seperate operations.

2. It may be that your die is at the skinny end of the manufacturer's tolerance range. All my Lee handgun dies were such, and have been replaced.

3. You can lap it a wee bit.

sagacious

07-01-2010, 12:15 AM

bores are both .451 , bullets are cast and sized to .4525 - .452 , i pulled a few bullets and they where .451 , so they are being sized as i seat the bullet in the case.
Your quenched ww alloy bullets are being sized during seating?
You may wish to let them age a week or so before loading.

HeavyMetal

07-01-2010, 12:45 AM

Check the diameter of the expander plug in your die set. Most die makers set this at about .447 / .448 and soft , 9 BHN, boolits deform on seating.

Suggest a .451 expander die and remove the Lee factory crimp die from use! You only want enough "crimp" to remove case flare at the mouth after you seat the boolit.

Bottom line is if you can see the crimp it's way to much!

Use a set of dial indicator Calipers to measure the case mouth area as you set up the crimp, basically .001 to .002 under case diameter is all you need.

bigboredad

07-01-2010, 12:38 PM

I would try crimping using your seating die and see what that measures it could be the lee factory crimp die is putting the squeeze on your boolits

whisler

07-01-2010, 09:48 PM

He says this ..."and i am not useing the lee factory crimp die".. so that's not the problem. More likely the expander plug as mentioned above.

Char-Gar

07-02-2010, 02:31 PM

Watching the threads about folks with leading issues, more often than not, they are trying to get by with Lee snot for lube. I wonder if there is a connection?

Thinktwicez71

07-02-2010, 04:13 PM

chargar , at first i did try the alox , then i found a recipe online and panlubed them , same outcome.

Thinktwicez71

07-02-2010, 04:21 PM

expander plug measures as this

first part to enter case mouth .448 at tip
middle .450
top near flare is .458

is that my problem ? too tight at the bottom , and plowing up my lead as i seat it ?

and sagacious , i stopped water quenching the bullets , im useing just staight wheel weights air cooled

Doble Troble

07-02-2010, 09:40 PM

If I was having your problems I would (in this order):

1) Make sure the bbls were squeaky clean and smooth with J&B bore paste.
2) Use a minimal amount of powder - the starting load. Do you have any Unique? Bullseye should work, but its on the fast-side.
3) Use a really good lube - like Lars BAC.

If this didn't solve the problem I'd be looking for a bigger sizing die expander until pulled bullets were greater than groove size.

There's no good reason that a 45 ACP should lead.

iammarkjones

07-02-2010, 09:51 PM

I just went through this myself. I found that I was trying to shoot WAY to hot and using quenched WW that were .0005 larger than my barrel just didn't work.
My solution was slow the round down to about 750 FPS average. Also I went with air cooled straight WW. All leading is gone and the colt 1911 is now much more accurate than me.

Thinktwicez71

07-03-2010, 11:42 AM

i have alliant bullseye , and hodgdon clays (plain old clays) although i haven't tried the clays yet , i only bought it because of the good things i have heard about it .

i was useing 5.5g bullseye oal of 1.235
ill try 4 and see what that does, thanks

HeavyMetal

07-03-2010, 02:33 PM

The expander plug in your die is to small! Typical of late 45 auto die sets it is set up for Jacketed "ball" bullets!

Depending on how far you are inserting it into the case your only expanding to 450 max with the 458 part actually doing the neck flaring.

So whats happening is you are seating air cooled WW boolits sized .452 and the case is re- sizing them as you seat them to .450 and now you are shooting .450 boolits down a .451 barrel!

Now you know why you are getting leading!

A combonation of changes will will remove that problem.

If you can make your boolits harder do so. 9 BHN will deform easily, 15 BHN not as easy. I don' think you need anything harder than 15 BHN. You can stay with the 9 BHN for now but consider the change in the future.

The most important step is to get another expander plug, a straight one! It needs to be .451 diameter from the tip to the beginning of the case flareing portion of the plug No taper like you currently have.

Contact your die set manufacturer and explain what and why to the customer service person. If he / she does not get it ask for some one else until you get someone who does!

This will "fix" your fit issue if your alloy is firm enough!

Also make sure your sizing set up is actually doing boolits at .4525, I believe you posted you have that right but it doesn't hurt to double check!

Now lets discuss lube!

In one of your posts I saw you went to a pan lube set up, Good! Now you need to use something beside Alox! If you have something else, and I don't mean Liquid Alox, use it.

Some suggestions are Carnuba Red, Lyman Moly, Zambini Red, Blue angel There's a ton of good lube that aren't alox out there use one.

Once you make sure you have the right "fit", the boolits aren't being deformed during seating and you use a better lube I think you'll find the leading issue will "Go Away"!

Let us know how this works for you.

Thinktwicez71

07-11-2010, 07:41 PM

alright , i think i got it.

i used some bore paste and smoothed out my trp some , barrel feels alot better now. i loaded up some lee mold 200g lswc , 3.9g clays , 1.250 oal , .471 crimp with new redding expander die (tumble lubed). leaded some still , one good smear down the barrel. Clays rocks by the way , noticeably cleaner and nearly no recoil.

then i cleaned my barrel so i could eat off it , loaded some lee mold 200 g lswc with 3.9 g clays , 1.250 oal , .472 crimp , redding expander die , but i pan lubed useing a lube i made that i got the recipe online , it has stp oil treatment in it , parafin wax , and vaseline. Damn near no leading at all , and 2 swipes with a patch and it was clean as a wistle.

so i am pretty sure i got it now , i just need to invest in a lube sizer next week and lube traditionally with some carnuba red or something and i should be all set.

thanks for the info guys , i will let ya know how i make out once i get the sizer here. ill prolly get either a lyman 4500 , redding , or a star.