Brush Rifles

[Frank]

So why do you think they call it a brush rifle?

[jh45gun]

There is no such thing as a brush rifle if your thinking about calibers. Any bullet will deflect hitting brush studies have proved this. However if your thinking size, a short handy rifle like a Carbine makes a good brush rifle handy to use in thicker cover. Which is one reason I suspect the Winchester and Marlin carbines have been so popular as hunting rifles all these years.

[P.K.]

There is no such thing as a brush rifle if your thinking about calibers. Any bullet will deflect hitting brush studies have proved this. However if your thinking size, a short handy rifle like a Carbine makes a good brush rifle handy to use in thicker cover. Which is one reason I suspect the Winchester and Marlin carbines have been so popular as hunting rifles all these years.

My thoughts too, particularly the 1894 large loop model in 30-30 or 32 WS. Great gun...I think it's called a "Trappers" model but almost everyone calls the large loop 16-18" ones that.

[Tom308]

A brush rifle is a rifle you take into the brush. I think the term is most often used to describe short rifles or rifles with short barrels. Forget all the biased terms and practice with what you have.

[mike in co]

me thinks "a lot" of folks(maybe outside our group) would think "brush busting" but several tests have shown it just does not work reliably.

so short and handy yes....


but thats about all today

[Doc_Stihl]

Brush gun refers to short and handy to get around in the brush, not to shoot through it in my mind.

[Frank]

I see the word "handy" most often used, combined with a short barrel. Too often I hear somebody tell me it shoots good through heavy brush, thus the "brush caliber" myth. I'd like to expand on the word handy, to include fast handling and quick on the target.

[NHlever]

I think the term best describes a rifle with a barrel of 20" or less unless it is a single shot. Weight is important too since you generally are carrying the rifle all day to be ready for the quick shots that present themselves in the "brush". On the caliber thing, I'll take a slightly different stand, and one that I don't believe has been tested. I don't go for the big caliber / heavy bullet thing, but I do believe that highly stable bullets fired from rifles with fast twist stand the best chance of surviving twig encounters, and staying somewhat on course. I think that is why the old 6.5 mm, and 7 mm calibers got their reputation for killing, and penetrating beyond their paper ballistics. I have heard 44-40 bullets ricochet in the woods, and have lost deer with 30-30's that encountered twigs, but not so with my old 7X57. The very shallow evidence that I can see that relates to this is watching a thrown football. If thrown with minimual rotation speed if it is "ticked" by a player, it heads off course right away. Throw that same ball with a fast rotation, and it may wobble a bit, but often settles down pretty much on course................ Now...... I've got on my flame proof vest, so have at it. :D

[jh45gun]

You don't need no vest but it has been proven doing tests that NO BULLET is brush proof and that includes every thing from the 22 to a 12 gauge slug. If the animal is close to the brush you still may get it but that does not mean that the projectile was a good brush buster as it was still going off course if it hit something in front of the animal.

[Shiloh]

A brush rifle is a rifle you take into the brush. I think the term is most often used to describe short rifles or rifles with short barrels. Forget all the biased terms and practice with what you have.

That is it exactly. Something short to be able to weave in and out of scrub, trees, and yes, brush.

Shiloh

[northmn]

As others have stated they are rifles handy to carry in the brush. Some of the calibers using long bullets like the 6.5 had been shown to maybe deflect less than the short fat ones like the classics, but not to any extent. I have seen tests where even a 50bmg does not do too well. A big point on a brush gun is the ability to also get off a fast adequate shot. Mine uses a Williams 5d peep sight and nice gold bead. This combo works better for me and my old eyes than even a low power scope. I have "walked up" more than one deer in some pretty thick Northern Mn brush and have been able to eat venison after getting off a very fast shot. I do not however, believe in rapid fire as I used to see some people using autoloaders make a lot of noise and no venison. Still I like a good lever for that kind of hunting.

Northmn

[NVcurmudgeon]

Ever notice a hunting partner brag about his "brush rifle" and then see him go ino a quail jungle with with a 30" barrel punp gun or semi-auto. Guess brush shotguns don't exist.

[bruce drake]

I've got three brush guns that I would call brush guns.

Winchester 1894 in 32 Winchester Special
Ted Williams Model 100 in 30-30
A 98 Mauser in 7.62x39 with a 18" barrel.

All are short, can shoot a 150gr boolit, get good ballistics and handle really well.

What more can you ask for?

Bruce

[Multigunner]

I've shot .30-06 AP through a tree thicker than my body and hit dead center on a target set beyond it firing by memory of the position of the target, I've also seen 5.56 ball squirt its core out in ratshot size droplets after going through three inches of a rotten stump, the empty flatened jacket barely penetrating the cardboard backing of a silhouette set behind the stump, the droplets not penetrating at all. So yes some bullets are relatively unaffected by striking tree limbs or brush, while others have little or no chance of making it through heavy brush.

The 7mm mauser was considered quite a good brush gun in Africa, so long as the 175 gr round nose was used.

In testing penetration on an old car body the 6.5X55 did a great job, far better than I'd have thought possible, the ammo had round nosed bullets that looked to be cupro-nickel.

It stands to reason that a bullet that will cut through a 4X4 like it wasn't there won't take much notice of a few thumb sized tree limbs.

[beagle]

I've seen AP hit a small pencil sized twig, shed it's jacket and deflect 3 feet at 150 yards too./beagle


I've shot .30-06 AP through a tree thicker than my body and hit dead center on a target set beyond it firing by memory of the position of the target, I've also seen 5.56 ball squirt its core out in ratshot size droplets after going through three inches of a rotten stump, the empty flatened jacket barely penetrating the cardboard backing of a silhouette set behind the stump, the droplets not penetrating at all. So yes some bullets are relatively unaffected by striking tree limbs or brush, while others have little or no chance of making it through heavy brush.

The 7mm mauser was considered quite a good brush gun in Africa, so long as the 175 gr round nose was used.

In testing penetration on an old car body the 6.5X55 did a great job, far better than I'd have thought possible, the ammo had round nosed bullets that looked to be cupro-nickel.

It stands to reason that a bullet that will cut through a 4X4 like it wasn't there won't take much notice of a few thumb sized tree limbs.

[bearcove]

Fast handing is a good part of it. Stopping power is another. Shooting 150 pound whitetails is one use, Moose elk and large bears are another.

A 45-70 or 454 levergun are good brush guns because they drop critters up close, quickly. Not because you can shoot through brush without deflection.

[izzyjoe]

the short leverguns are called trapper's,cause if you've ever done any trappin' you have to literly crawl though the brush at times. and you never know what's hide'n in the brush either. maybe somethin' that'll eat cha. but a short ,lite rifle makes it handy for thick brush. like somethin' in 16'' barrel 45-70.:cbpour:

[Curtis44]

With the opinion that "there is no such thing as a brush rifle" and that ALL bullets are deflected to the same degree by any and all "brush" Taint so! My son and I have tested this very premise rather extensively using calibers ranging from 250 Savage to 45/70. Bullet weights ranged from 100g to 405g. Bullets were shot through 2 sets of artificial brush screens made of 1/4 and 1/2 inch hardwood dowels mounted in a frame and spaced such that a bullet had to hit one or more dowels to pass through. Bottom line: small bullets deflected more than large ones.......surprise surprise. After reviewing several of the old "gun writer" tests of the past I found most of them flawed in one way or another. Bob Hagle chose to shoot through 3" diameter saplings in his test of brush rifles, a rather severe test IMO. Another writer who's name escapes me shot his test through a clump of thick brush whe the bullet could be expected to hit several branches of various sizes on the way through. Again a rather severe test. I think both of these writers were trying to demonstrate that you cannot just blast away through heavy brush and expect to hit your target. An I have to agree that they are right in that thinking. HOWEVER...... We were interested in a more reasonable question: does caliber and bullet weight make any practical difference if small unseen branches were struck on the way to the intended target. Not intentionally shooting through brush, but the unseen twig or vine between you and the deer. In my opinion, caliber and bullet weight DO make a meaningful difference. within reason. Almost any normal shoulder fired rifle will probably be deflected by 3' saplings or even broomstick sized brush. However, a 45/70 or a 338 seems to pass through 1/4" diameter obstructions with enough accuracy (minimal deflection) to still hit in the vital area of a deer 10-20 yards beyond the obstruction, while a 100g 25 cal does not. Is this a significant advantage? I don't know, it could be where I hunt.... I do know that the difference is real though, we fired several 10 shot groups with each rifle, and the difference was consistent every time. IIRC, the differences were significant at the .05 level.
If anyone would like to duplicate these tests, the setup was fired at 50yds with the dowel screen 10yds in front of the target. !0 shots , broken dowels replaced for each shot. Control group shot for each rifle/load without dowel screen. Each shots distance from the point of aim is measured and totaled for ten shots, and the mean or average of the 10 is calculated. The difference between the mean of the control and the mean of the test is the average deflection in inches at 10 yards. Don't take my word for it try it yourself. Just don't use 3" saplings........

[jh45gun]

With the opinion that "there is no such thing as a brush rifle" and that ALL bullets are deflected to the same degree by any and all "brush" Taint so! My son and I have tested this very premise rather extensively using calibers ranging from 250 Savage to 45/70. Bullet weights ranged from 100g to 405g. Bullets were shot through 2 sets of artificial brush screens made of 1/4 and 1/2 inch hardwood dowels mounted in a frame and spaced such that a bullet had to hit one or more dowels to pass through. Bottom line: small bullets deflected more than large ones.......surprise surprise. After reviewing several of the old "gun writer" tests of the past I found most of them flawed in one way or another. Bob Hagle chose to shoot through 3" diameter saplings in his test of brush rifles, a rather severe test IMO. Another writer who's name escapes me shot his test through a clump of thick brush whe the bullet could be expected to hit several branches of various sizes on the way through. Again a rather severe test. I think both of these writers were trying to demonstrate that you cannot just blast away through heavy brush and expect to hit your target. An I have to agree that they are right in that thinking. HOWEVER...... We were interested in a more reasonable question: does caliber and bullet weight make any practical difference if small unseen branches were struck on the way to the intended target. Not intentionally shooting through brush, but the unseen twig or vine between you and the deer. In my opinion, caliber and bullet weight DO make a meaningful difference. within reason. Almost any normal shoulder fired rifle will probably be deflected by 3' saplings or even broomstick sized brush. However, a 45/70 or a 338 seems to pass through 1/4" diameter obstructions with enough accuracy (minimal deflection) to still hit in the vital area of a deer 10-20 yards beyond the obstruction, while a 100g 25 cal does not. Is this a significant advantage? I don't know, it could be where I hunt.... I do know that the difference is real though, we fired several 10 shot groups with each rifle, and the difference was consistent every time. IIRC, the differences were significant at the .05 level.
If anyone would like to duplicate these tests, the setup was fired at 50yds with the dowel screen 10yds in front of the target. !0 shots , broken dowels replaced for each shot. Control group shot for each rifle/load without dowel screen. Each shots distance from the point of aim is measured and totaled for ten shots, and the mean or average of the 10 is calculated. The difference between the mean of the control and the mean of the test is the average deflection in inches at 10 yards. Don't take my word for it try it yourself. Just don't use 3" saplings........

Well for what is worth I shot at a doe a few years ago three times in three days she was in heavy oak brush but I thought I could shoot through an opening. Now WI law on muzzle loaders is for the moment though I think its going to change this year is One X scopes only or red dots. Now any one who has shot a red dot or one X scope knows that while the shot looks clear you may miss a twig or two you did not see as your concentrating on the target and not every branch in the way. I shot at that doe three times using 460 grain conicals and never touched her. Shooting clear at the range that load would tear the center out of the target at 50 yards. She was about 30 all three days. Never found no blood I know I did not hit her just from the way she acted. I know I tried to put that heavy conical through an opening and must have hit brush on the way in. Say what you want when your looking at an animal you see them more than you do what might be blocking your bullet in front of it if it is a smaller object.

[Richard B]

A bush rifle for me is a rifle carried in close cover where you might have to take a quick aimed shot at close range. The most important characteristic of this rifle would be how it fits you. The rifle must come up to your shoulder quickly with the sights lined up. The caliber, action and sights are what ever work for the shooter.

I have two brush rifles, both Marlin 336's. because they fit me better than any other rifle. One has a 2 1/2X scope in .35 Rem. and the other has a Williams receiver sight in .32 WS.

[mike in co]

I've shot .30-06 AP through a tree thicker than my body and hit dead center on a target set beyond it firing by memory of the position of the target, I've also seen 5.56 ball squirt its core out in ratshot size droplets after going through three inches of a rotten stump, the empty flatened jacket barely penetrating the cardboard backing of a silhouette set behind the stump, the droplets not penetrating at all. So yes some bullets are relatively unaffected by striking tree limbs or brush, while others have little or no chance of making it through heavy brush.

The 7mm mauser was considered quite a good brush gun in Africa, so long as the 175 gr round nose was used.

In testing penetration on an old car body the 6.5X55 did a great job, far better than I'd have thought possible, the ammo had round nosed bullets that looked to be cupro-nickel.

It stands to reason that a bullet that will cut through a 4X4 like it wasn't there won't take much notice of a few thumb sized tree limbs.


and just what BRUSH RIFLE did you shoot it out of ???

think i could do the same with a 50bmg...but it aint a brush rifle.

comment out of context are a waste of bandwidth.....


this is the lever gun section, discussing "brush" guns

[ozymandias]

Fast handing is a good part of it. Stopping power is another. Shooting 150 pound whitetails is one use, Moose elk and large bears are another.

A 45-70 or 454 levergun are good brush guns because they drop critters up close, quickly. Not because you can shoot through brush without deflection.

That's always been my understanding as well. One wants to anchor a game animal quickly in heavy brush to minimize the possibility of losing a wounded animal.

[405]

I certainly don't know when the term "brush gun" started but every story I ever heard or read or overheard about brush guns had something to do with handling in or around thick brush and/or shooting thru brush. Usually involved a short barreled lever gun, shooting a big bullet with a roundnose or a flat roundnose. The short barrel was supposed to be easier to handle around and thru thick brush to get fast shots at moving or non-moving game up close. The big, heavy roundnose or flatnose bullet was supposed to penetrate straighter thru limbs, twigs, etc. Seems a story is told around one hunting campfire, then the coffee shop, then several campfires, then family dinner tables, then several coffee shops, then a magazine article, then several magazine articles, then it takes on a life of its own, then it be gospel. :veryconfu

[Multigunner]

and just what BRUSH RIFLE did you shoot it out of ???

think i could do the same with a 50bmg...but it aint a brush rifle.

comment out of context are a waste of bandwidth.....


this is the lever gun section, discussing "brush" guns

Never heard of the Winchester 1895?
Not the rifle I used that time, it was a Garand.
Point is that there are many rifle calibers that can penetrate trees or logs and still stay on course well enough and with enough remaining energy to kill large game animals.
There are many lighter calibers that can't.

Heres another Leveraction to consider

The BLR is the only lever action which handles the 7mm Rem. and .300 Win. belted magnums. Other available calibers include the .223, .22-250, .243, .270 Win., .270 WSM, 7mm-08, 7mm WSM, .308, .30-06, .300 WSM, .358 Win. and .450 Marlin. In .300 Mag., .358 and .450 Marlin the BLR is a reasonable choice for hunting dangerous thin-skinned game.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/lever_action.htm
Some of those chamberings are suited to brush bucking others are not.

As for Brush Guns in general they can include bolt action rifles as well as autoloaders these days. The shorter version of the FAL are considered brush guns. At the same time few African Hunters would have considered the .30-30 a suitable brush gun.
The No.5 Carbine is another post WW2 brush gun.

But as I've said its a matter of effectiveness of the cartridge and bullet combination , with handling quality important but secondary.
A lever action 25-20 can take Deer with a well placed shot, but its a long way from being a Brush Gun no matter how fast it handles.

The Savage Model 99 Leveraction has been adapted to calibers from .22 Savage HiPower on up. Model 99 rifles in .22 Savage or the .25 calibers can hardly be classed as brush busters, but some in larger bore chamberings fit the bill nicely, with the .300 Savage right up there with the best.

Now theres also the element of how the term came into being to begin with. In the old west they had Plains Rifles and Mountain Rifles, in Florida they had Marsh guns or Swamp guns. Each was better at one role than others though caliber choice might often overlap. The Brush Gun might have been the low man on the totem pole for some hunters, not suited to long range shots on the plains or from one mountain side to another, suited only for relatively close up work.

[NickSS]

I looked long and hard for over 20 years for a hunting rifle for heavy cover and came to the conclusion that none would reliably shoot through heavy brush. There are always exceptions to that rule and I also determined that heavy large bullets tend to deflect less than lighter bullets (especially light fast bullets). As for rifles I have been a bolt gun fan from the beginning and for years I could not even consider a lever gun. I tried various bolt action short light rifles and found the same fault with all of them. They were not natural pointers for a fast shot due to their light weight barrels and stock configurations. Then I moved to the PAC NW and only had my long range bolt gun with me with a 24 inch barrel. The area I planned to hunt was covered in heavy cover and the thought of carrying my 9.5 pound long rifle was not appealing. I started looing for a short light rifle and one week before the season began I gritted my teeth an bought a Marling 336 in 30-30. I did not like open sights so I put a williams FP sight on it. The first time I shot it I noticed two things. First was that is shot a lot better than I thought it would and second that it was a natural pointer. I used that rifle for heavy brush for the next 10 years until I found a better rifle. It is a model 95 Marlin in 45-70. To me this rifle is the ultimate brush rifle. Light powerful and accurate. I still look for holes in the cover to shoot through but it has been real successful for me. Oh this rifle came with a 22 inch barrel but I had it cut down to 18 inches long before Marlin came out with their guide gun.

[mack1]

I've done most of my deer hunting in southwest MO in thick brush ceader thickets and tall grass. For me a brush rifle is a short fast handling rifle and fast follow up shots with modist recoial. I prefear the 94 win in 30-30 if longer shots say 150 yrds. When a first shot is deflected a second quick shot is the only chance, also deere shot at close range do not react the same I have destroyed the heart of a buck with a shot from a 308 marlin exp at 10 yards with the first shot and needed a second shot to the neck to keep him form vanishing into 6' tall grass for me only a leaver or semiauto will do this. A marlin 1894 in 357 or 44mag if shots will beshorter.

[Frank]

Dense wooded area with potentially dangerous animals requires fast handling, good reticle or dot and a wide meplat, plus ability for follow-up shots due to defection and misses from low light and dense cover.