Do weak magazine springs cause malfunctions?

[44minimum]

Have you ever had a malfunction directly attributed to weak magazine springs? And by this I mean the weapon was jamming or whatever and as soon as the magazine spring was replaced the problem disappeared. I see an article about this from time to time and I'm wondering if the problem is over exaggerated. I mean, I'm sure it happens but is fairly rare. I'm quite certain that some of you have had an AR 15 or a lever action lying around fully loaded for 95 years or so and it is still good to go.

[wiljen]

Yes, The Taurus 1911 magazines have weak springs and will jam as a result. I have seen it and replaced the internals with Wolf springs and they work a lot better. I still use Mccormicks most of the time, but it did make a monumental improvement in the originals to dump the factory springs.

[markinalpine]

I had the same problem with the factory magazine furnished with an Auto-Ordnance M1911A1, failures to feed (FTF). As soon as I replaced the stock spring with a Wolff model, the function improved, but I also reshaped the magazine lips to adjust the feed angle of the rounds coming up the tube.

Mark :coffeecom

[mike in co]

yes they can

[geargnasher]

Have you ever had a malfunction directly attributed to weak magazine springs? And by this I mean the weapon was jamming or whatever and as soon as the magazine spring was replaced the problem disappeared. I see an article about this from time to time and I'm wondering if the problem is over exaggerated. I mean, I'm sure it happens but is fairly rare. I'm quite certain that some of you have had an AR 15 or a lever action lying around fully loaded for 95 years or so and it is still good to go.

YES. 1911-style pistols depend on a reliable follower pressure to function.

Gear

[StarMetal]

Critical to a Luger. Have seen no problems in the AR's. I guess a really weak spring is bad in a 1911. The manufacturers claim the springs don't get that weak over a long period of time fully loads if the springs are good springs to start with....which means the temper and metallurgy.

[thx997303]

I've been told that springs weaken from cycling and not from sitting loaded.

[gray wolf]

I've been told that springs weaken from cycling and not from sitting loaded.

-----------------------------------------correct--------------------------------

[44man]

The very worst springs are the ones in Ruger .22 pistol magazines, load 5 rounds and let it sit a week and the gun will fail until the spring is stretched back out. The next are magazine springs on Remington shotguns.

[thx997303]

It would seem to me that *quality* springs weaken from cycling and not sitting loaded.

I would imagine springs of improper temper and alloy may be an exception to the above.

[danski26]

Yes, I've had problems with sig "mec-gar" mags and some AR mags. Slide lock probs on the Sig mags and I just havn't had the time to figure out the exact problem with the mags but it goes away with a new mag.

[mike in co]

Yes, I've had problems with sig "mec-gar" mags and some AR mags. Slide lock probs on the Sig mags and I just havn't had the time to figure out the exact problem with the mags but it goes away with a new mag.

let them know...they are one of the biggest oem and aftermarket mag makers in the world.

never had an issue with a mecgar mag.

[winelover]

The very worst springs are the ones in Ruger .22 pistol magazines, load 5 rounds and let it sit a week and the gun will fail until the spring is stretched back out. The next are magazine springs on Remington shotguns.

That hasn't been my experience. I've kept my Ruger Mk II 22 mags loaded for more than 20 years and they havn't failed yet. Same for my Remington 1100, it sits at the front of my safe fully loaded with #4 buck. Might want to clean and lube your firearms more often.

Winelover

[44man]

That hasn't been my experience. I've kept my Ruger Mk II 22 mags loaded for more than 20 years and they havn't failed yet. Same for my Remington 1100, it sits at the front of my safe fully loaded with #4 buck. Might want to clean and lube your firearms more often.

Winelover
Not been my experience, you are just lucky. I have owned six Mark I's and II's, still have two. Not a single one could be stored loaded. They never fail if just loaded and shot but I have to empty them when I put them away. The springs take a set and will only feed about half the rounds.
I was a gunsmith for many years and almost every failure with Remington's was caused by the spring. I would have to buy Wolfe springs by the dozen. The 870 was the worst.
I still have a drawer full of old Rem springs. Not every production run was bad.
The next spring will shorten with use and that is the SBH and BH mainspring. When I shot IHMSA, accuracy would start to fall off with my SBH so I would change the spring to bring it back. Lay an old one next to a new one shows you right away.

[mike in co]

no its not rare.

springs need to be replaced.


how often depends on how much you use them and how good they were to begin with.


on my comp guns maybe every other year.( and i'm a light weight shooter)

( the springs on my guns every yr)

some guys might never wear out a spring......


but they are cheap , easy to replace, and they do wear....


mike in co

[HeavyMetal]

I agree with both wear and taking a set.

Have had many an old shotgun, bought at a yard sale, need to have the firing pin spring replaced because they had been left cocked for years in the back of a closet.

Generally intermitent failure to fire is the common problem. a new spring and leaving the gun un cocked in storage cure the issue.

Jeff Cooper recommened that 45 mags be rotated on a regular bassis.

Never saw why that should not apply to all mags!

[StarMetal]

Look at how long engine valve springs last...and they cycle a lot.

[Char-Gar]

There are two kinds of springs..good ones and bad ones. Bad ones reveal themselves pretty quick and need to be replaced. Good ones keep on working year after year.

A couple of years back I ran across a fully loaded Colt 1911 mag that has been lost for over thirty years. I took it to the range, stuck it in my pistol, racked the slide and cranked off seven fast rounds. Even the ancient handloads worked fine although the one nickle case split. I then reloaded the mag a couple more times and it functioned perfectly. That magazine is still in service with me.

As there such things as problems from springs? Yes, of course. But I think the problem is greatly exaggerated.

[44man]

That is why I buy Wolfe springs, never had one go bad yet.
Much better then a screen door spring some Chinese things have in them.

[geargnasher]

Look at how long engine valve springs last...and they cycle a lot.

I was thinking the same thing and trying to figure out why our gun springs fail so often. Some may argue that it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but I feel it's a matter of engineering. Valve and diesel fuel injector springs have to cycle billions of times in their life, and though they to wear out, it is usually damage or wire defect that causes them to fail. I think the difference is that gun springs are ususally pushed to the ragged edge of their elastic limit in normal function whereas some automotive springs are cycling comfortably in the middle of their range. Many spring applications in guns (hammer, firing pin, and magazine feed springs in particular) are limited in space, so the spring must perform a herculean task of maintaining rated rate from 3/4 or 7/8 compression all the way to coil bind. That's a lot to ask of any spring.

BTW, when was the last time anyone wore out a wire trigger spring? I'll bet never. Look at the relative stress it's under and the small range of motion within its elastic range.

Gear

[mike in co]

Look at how long engine valve springs last...and they cycle a lot.

last and still in spec is two different things.


ever look at a spring from a 100,000k mile engine......most are bent and short....

do they still "cycle" yes...are they following the cam at high rpm...no.

your back in one of my fields.....


as to the 1911 mag after 30 years...it was doing no work till you pulled the trigger and it had to push up the next round...just sitting there waiting to do some good...

now had it got wet...a little rust and we would have a different story.


mike in co

[44man]

I was thinking the same thing and trying to figure out why our gun springs fail so often. Some may argue that it isn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but I feel it's a matter of engineering. Valve and diesel fuel injector springs have to cycle billions of times in their life, and though they to wear out, it is usually damage or wire defect that causes them to fail. I think the difference is that gun springs are ususally pushed to the ragged edge of their elastic limit in normal function whereas some automotive springs are cycling comfortably in the middle of their range. Many spring applications in guns (hammer, firing pin, and magazine feed springs in particular) are limited in space, so the spring must perform a herculean task of maintaining rated rate from 3/4 or 7/8 compression all the way to coil bind. That's a lot to ask of any spring.

BTW, when was the last time anyone wore out a wire trigger spring? I'll bet never. Look at the relative stress it's under and the small range of motion within its elastic range.

Gear
That is a good analogy.
I was going to respond to Starmetal but Mike beat me. I majored in automotive, was a mechanic for many years and yes, valve springs do lose tension or break.

[StarMetal]

last and still in spec is two different things.


ever look at a spring from a 100,000k mile engine......most are bent and short....

do they still "cycle" yes...are they following the cam at high rpm...no.

your back in one of my fields.....


as to the 1911 mag after 30 years...it was doing no work till you pulled the trigger and it had to push up the next round...just sitting there waiting to do some good...

now had it got wet...a little rust and we would have a different story.


mike in co

Just about everything on a car engine is out of spec once you fired up the engine.

My field two Mike, built and raced chevys most of my life. Never removed a valve spring from a small block chevy that was bent, have had some get shorter. It's a very rare valve train system Mike, that follows the cam, you know that...it's called valve float. A weak spring may do it a little sooner, but more then likely not before the red line is reached.

You have to compare how many times a valve is worked, not even any springs in a military machine gun get worked that often in their life span.

Gear,

Okay lets go from valve springs to suspension springs. Now those get worked anywhere from within their limit to past their limit. Got a 61 Impala with the original suspension springs and she's not sitting on the garage floor. Another thing about valve springs I've never seen an engine that sat for years and years and then started to not run so bad due the valve springs. My point is on a V8 for an example many of the valves are in various stages of being open from not open at all to fully opened and that means the fully opened ones have the valve springs compressed pretty far and then set that way for years....but still work.

[35remington]

Weak springs may arise because of a conscious decision to make them weaker and then nevertheless trying to foist them on the unsuspecting public as an "improvement." Hucksters do this all the time; some of them are name brands. Add the problem of deliberately making a magazine with room for less spring because you wanted an extra shot to that of a weakened spring and you've just increased the odds for a malfunction greatly.

Weak springs is why so many magazines that cram 8 shots into a space meant for seven (flush fit magazines) have given problems in 1911's.

More room used for cartridges is less room for a spring, so you have less spring trying to move more cartridges through a bigger space, which isn't good. It is particularly bad on the last shot in the magazine.

In 1911's, weak springs give what is known as a "bolt over base" misfeed, wherein the slide goes forward before the next round rises to the top of the magazine lips. In addition, the weak spring magazine may cause the last round in the mag to be ejected from the gun rather than fed, or it may simply lie on top of the follower, unfed, when the slide locks open.....IF it locks open. There's about four types of malfunctions attributable to weak mag springs, and the weak mag spring may be due to deliberately bad engineering.

Due to their breechfaces going rearward only as far as the rear of magwell, shorty 1911's do not have the inherent reliability of the larger 4.25 and 5 inch 1911's because they allow less time for the round to rise before the breechface comes forward. A weak magazine spring is a real problem in these guns.

1911 variants that trim off substantial size for concealability ironically are more likely to malfunction, especially when the recoil spring takes a set or the magazine spring gets slightly weak. There's no use carrying a gun that's "more concealable" if it's less likely to work when you need it.

Examine ANY automatic in shortened variants for breechface travel. If the breech goes rearward only as far as the rear of the magwell, you've got a jam-o-matic on your hands that will crop up when recoil or magazine springs get even a little fatigued and it's not to be trusted.

These types of guns for sale to unknowing buyers underscore the point that adequate magazine springs are never to be taken for granted, and the problem of weak magazine springs isn't exaggerated if you are using that magazine in a gun that has less latitude for successful function when everything is not perfect. And everything's often not perfect, as +P loads may be shot, or the recoil or magazine springs may take a premature set that you don't know about.

To jam my full size 1911's on every other magazine on the last shot, simply substitute the eight shot, flush fit, weak spring Shooting Star magazine. That design was offered with a greatly understrength magazine spring in the past. Let's hope they're still not selling it with weak springs. I have to guess that they may, since the McCormick Power Mag has been sold all these years with a very inferior follower design. And still is.

If it was such a good follower, why the Power Mag Plus?

Let the buyer beware.

[mike in co]

Another thing about valve springs I've never seen an engine that sat for years and years and then started to not run so bad due the valve springs. My point is on a V8 for an example many of the valves are in various stages of being open from not open at all to fully opened and that means the fully opened ones have the valve springs compressed pretty far and then set that way for years....but still work.


that is because springs only WEAR when they are moving! most people just can't seem to get thier brains around that statement. sitting in anyone position is not wear, movement is wear.


i saw bent springs all the time. take a machinist square and a flat surface. spring on end, rotate with the it next to the square...and just watch the bend in the spring as you rotate it.

then check both ends for square to each other.


most gearheads don't know what is needed in cam design and spring/spring rates.

i have seen float at 4000 rpm with a stock engine that just had more carb added....oem springs cannot keep up with the new "rate of change"

all that said i still change mag springs.

mike in co

[StarMetal]

that is because springs only WEAR when they are moving! most people just can't seem to get thier brains around that statement. sitting in anyone position is not wear, movement is wear.


i saw bent springs all the time. take a machinist square and a flat surface. spring on end, rotate with the it next to the square...and just watch the bend in the spring as you rotate it.

then check both ends for square to each other.

I was using the cam spring being compressed for long periods of time like in vehicles that set long. This compares to loaded magazines.


most gearheads don't know what is needed in cam design and spring/spring rates.

i have seen float at 4000 rpm with a stock engine that just had more carb added....oem springs cannot keep up with the new "rate of change"

all that said i still change mag springs.

mike in co

I was using the cam spring being compressed for long periods of time like in vehicles that set long. This compares to loaded magazines.

[Freischütz]

In the P.08 the magazine spring is a leading cause of malfunctions. As a rule of thumb it's one of the first things looked at.