How many times can rifle brass be reused??

[deerslayer]

My question is how many times can rifle brass be reused?? I have seen some people say if they do not know the source and history that they will not use it. Is that an accuracy issue for extreme precision?? Or is it a safety issue? I have some brass for several rifles rem 7mm mag, ..243 win and 22-250 that I got in a trade which I thought was great but I am concerned that I will do something that is unsafe. I reload my pistol brass multiple times and inspect it between each loading and if i notice any problems or defects it goes in the scrap pile. I am sure some of them have been reloaded 10 or 15 times. So can I do the same with rifles one more experienced reloader has told me I can, in a private conversation.
What is yu'alls opinion on this matter??

[sagamore-one]

I recently read an article where it was reported that the 1000 yard bench rest record that was held for many, many years was shot with brass on it's 57 th loading. I believe the caliber was 30-378 Whetherby Mag.

[deerslayer]

Wow, If I can get 17 out of what I have it will last me a long time much less 57

[MT Gianni]

Maximum chamber and minimum die size, headspaced on the belt with the shoulder set back and they won't last long. Set up right you can go more than you think.

[deerslayer]

By set up right do you mean neck sizing the cartridge after the first firing in my gun??

[mike in co]

I recently read an article where it was reported that the 1000 yard bench rest record that was held for many, many years was shot with brass on it's 57 th loading. I believe the caliber was 30-378 Whetherby Mag.

this is not a stock gun with a stock chamber, so while it can be done, its not average.
i expect to get 15 or more from my rws and norma brass for my 1000yd br 300 win mag.
custom chamber, custom dies, etc, etc.

i have seen 308 win go 50 reloads..in one day! just to see if it could be done...

full length resize, trim to length...look for base thinning..a ring just up from the base.

look at it and say do i feel comfortable putting my face next to this and pulling the trigger?

if you dont know its best to chuck it.....

mike in co

[spqrzilla]

I have seen some people say if they do not know the source and history that they will not use it. Is that an accuracy issue for extreme precision?? Or is it a safety issue?
...

What is yu'alls opinion on this matter??

It depends a lot upon the particular caliber. I won't use anyone elses' brass in my .300 WSM. But some calibers are easier to spot once-fired ( like some semi-auto stuff like .223 where you can easily count the extractor marks ) and I am less picky.

Likewise, with pistol brass, my practices vary. .45 ACP brass lasts forever for me and I'll scrounge anyone's. But .40 S&W brass I'm more leery of if I don't know where it came from.

[montana_charlie]

I have seen some people say if they do not know the source and history that they will not use it. Is that an accuracy issue for extreme precision?? Or is it a safety issue???
It's a safety issue.
CM

[DLCTEX]

As stated, the brass can be examined for problems and reloaded many times. I have no problem with buying used brass, but prefer it to be once fired, if it is not guaranteed to be once fired then it has to be cheap or free. I have found split necks in new brass. I do not load any of my guns but one to max. and it gets new brass, or brass I know the history on.

[deerslayer]

So other than an obvious split, crack or defect what else should I be looking for and how close should I examine them. If I do have a complete failure of the brass what should I expect to be the result to myself and the gun or will the gun contain the blast. And also I am not intending to load to maximum charges I will be around 10 % below listed maxes with what I have loaded so far for testing with is this enough below max to not be so critical?? Sorry I would rather ask now than wish I did later!!

[JIMinPHX]

I have a bunch of .223 brass that has been loaded well over 20 times each. I only loaded it to around 2700fps which is not really a particularly hot charge for that cartridge. I shoot it in a single shot rifle.

I have seen brass from a friend's .270 Weatherby mag that is worn out after 3 or 4 loadings. I have seen brass come out of a rifle with a large chamber & turn to junk after the first firing.

Chamber pressure, reloading practices, action type, & chamber condition all play a role in determining brass life.

I pick up most of my brass out in the desert. I use the stuff that looks good. I've never had any trouble with it.

[Lead Fred]

I reload them 10 times, then anneal them, then load them 10 times.

I bought 100 Remys new in 2002. I lost a few at the range, Im still using 81 of them.

Have not seen one crack yet.

[Buckshot]

............Brass life can be affected by it's manufacture, and especially nickle plated brass. I'd never bought any, but had used nickle plated brass (all pickup and all pistol) for years. I have some 38 Special nickle WRA headstamped stuff that's been tumbled, reloaded, and shot so many times the only nickle plating left is some on the base and a bit on the body above the rim. My bad luck with nickle plated brass has all been with Remington.

I'd had a Martini action barreled with a Douglas 44 cal barrel (16" twist) to .444 Marlin and bought 200 nickle plated cases. It took awhile to get around to shooting it very much, and not too much later re-barreled a MAS36 to 45-70 and bought 200 nickle plated cases for it. Ditto a Ruger Vaquero in 45 Colt, and since it was polished stainless I bought 500 nickle plated cases. In the course of all this the 45-70 cases began to shed flecks of nickle plating from around the casemouths. Apparently so did the .444 but I noticed the 45-70's first. In short order they had the size dies all scratched up.

The .444 dies and cases began not long afterward. I hated it but chucked all the 45-70 and .444 brass and had to buy new size dies. The 45 Colt R-P brass didn't begin to upset me by flaking as I figured they would, but began splitting to various lengths from the mouth. Almost all that split did so on their first firing. Out of a 50 round box I'd lose between 5-8 cases. Rather then make up the lost ones from the 50 round box I'd simply reload the 42 to 45 remaining cases, and on their 2nd, 3rd and 4th firings I'd lose more, but in diminishing numbers to about the 5th firing. Since the size die was carbide there was no issue, and the casemouths had ALL begun flaking. That 50 round box would end up containing 30 some cases.

I will no longer buy, or use New nickle plated brass.

Another killer of brass is continual FL sizing, which generally greatly oversizes the caseneck/mouth area even for jacketed bullets. Having said that, honestly almost ALL case failures begin at the casemouth, regardless the sizing method used. With BN cases probably the 2nd area of most trouble is the neck/shoulder area where you'll see either cracking or burn through. The 3rd most common area of failure is case streatching just above the solid head. Usually it appears as a bright ring around the case maybe 1/4" or so above the extractor groove.

Load intensity will also have an effect on caselife. Mild loads naturally are less stressfull to the brass. The scheutzen shooters reloading the same cartridge case time after time can easily reload the same case over 60 times. No sizing actually takes place as the boolit isn't seated into or held by the case, but seated into the throat/leade independantly, with the charged case placed in behind it.

As I mentioned manuafctureing can also affect how long brass lasts. While most cartridge brass is of a 70/30 copper/zinc mix, the purity of the components and the quality of the blanking and draw dies will determine it's end quality. I have quite a bit of LC45 headstamped 30-'06 and have used it exclusively for cast boolit loads in a 1903A1 Springfield. The most senior batch of 50 cases has 36 firings on them. They've been annealed 3 times and trimmed 4 times. I'm quite amazed that this (possibly) wartime produced brass has lasted this long. However it must have been quality produced as when I was prepping it, it proved to be very consistent weight wise.

Cartridge brass is what it is, and good brass can last for an amazing number of reloads if it's cared for, and even with factory level loads. I also have a bunch of LC83, 223 brass my Gunnery Sargent cousin gave me many years back, when he was stationed not far away at 29 Palms. I've used this exclusively in my Savage M112 varmint rifle, with rather hottish:roll: loads. However these loads are exceedingly accurate. I don't know if it's the loads' intensity or what, casehead expansion is not a concern either, but it appears that about 6 reloads is it. I've never lost a case to mouth splits but rather to the fact that the primer pockets get rather casual.

...............Buckshot

[bohokii]

autoloaders often abuse the cases more than a bolt gun it also depends on the chamber dimensions and loading levels light loads and tight chambers make brass last forever

every time you trim the brass that metal came from somewhere brass thinning is a problem

there is no set expiration date

like a toyota truck it could last 300k miles or it could **** out half way through the baja 1000

[waksupi]

I don't count times reloaded, but do know I have brass that is 30 years old, that have had lots of powder through them.

[AriM]

wow, that is a question with almost endless answers.

depends on how you treat the brass.

are they hot loads
what kind of crimp (if any)
what kind of resizing
what kind of flare/expanding
what kind of boolit (boat tail of flat etc...)
do you heat treat/relieve the case necks
what kind of brass was it to begin with


I could think of hundreds of reasons why a piece of brass would, or would not last.

There are for sure signs to look for though

casehead separation (a little ring around the web)

sooty cases

loose primers

gas cutting on the case head

dents in the neck

extractor cuts

etc etc etc

[Multigunner]

Before I fitted a new bolt with No.3 bolthead to my Savage No.4 rifle I was lucky if I got three loads out of each case, now the only limit on case life if if the magazine lip cuts a neck.

I've always heard that 30-35 is the average life of a case, when full length resized, if headspace and chamber dimensions are close to minimum, with wear to the primer pocket being the main issue. This was long ago so improvements in primers and seating tools may allow longer life of the primer pocket these days.
No one wants a gas cut breechface, so avoiding leakage from loose fitted primers is as good reason to scrap a case as any.

I've heard of up to ninety reloads of a case, when lower pressure loads are used exclusively and the case is neck sized only after fire forming using a narrow strip of cigarette paper around the base, or similar method some used teflon or silicone plumbers joint sealing tape, to center the case on first firing.

I always mark the rim and rotate the reloaded case 180 degrees from its first firing position on the second firing. After that the case is evenly expanded and the pin indentation will be dead center.
Sizing only 2/3 the length of the neck lets the un-sized rear of the neck act to center the bullet to the bore. group size can be halved by those methods alone

[jcwit]

I have 5 particular pieces of LC 2001 brass in .223 that have now been loaded 60 plus times and shot in a VLS 700 I use for casual benchrest shooting. They are only neck sized and the load is 22 and a half grains of Accurate 2015. Have no idea how long they will last.

[Wayne Smith]

I can only think of one thing not yet mentioned.

If you have a load or chamber that results in you needing to continually trim the brass begin to look for base separation. That's when you straighten a paper clip, sharpen one end, put a 90degree bend about 1/4 of an inch from the sharp end. Stick this into the case and scrape it up the side from the base. If it catches, toss the case.

[WILCO]

So other than an obvious split, crack or defect what else should I be looking for and how close should I examine them.

Just use your common sense of safety. I always chuck new, used, traded,found brass in the LEE Zip Trim after visual inspection for trimming and chamfer. Target shooting brass gets kneck sized only, all other brass gets full length sized. If the brass looks out of order, I toss it or make a dummy round to be polished and given away as a small gift. Most of my brass is several years old and fired many many times. Life's too short to fuss with brass. :Fire:

[DLCTEX]

Deerslayer: In answer to what to look for in way of problems with brass other than splits or defects, I first want to check for a lighter ring around the case body (another negative with nickled brass). If you suspect a ring, it can be checked with a wire (paper clip) bent at 90* on the end. Draw the wire up the inside of the case from the base, feeling for a groove. This is the brass separating due to stretching. The next problem is found by examining fired cases to see if the primer leaked during firing, there will be a dark smoke ring around the primer. A loose primer fit during loading means the case head has expanded due to pressure. If the condition is not too severe, a different brand of primer may fit tighter. As to what can happen to the shooter: most modern bolt type ( includes autos, levers, and slide actions with a rotating bolt lock up) do an excellent job of contain (or releasing in a safe direction) the pressure from a ruptured case. Also the break open types (standing breech single shots) tend to divert gases to the side. Lever actions, such as the 94 Win., are not as likely to handle the gas, but are usually loaded to lower levels. A blown primer can push gases back to the shooter and can pressure cut the breech face or firing pin. Always wear eye protection. I've known of lots of case separations in my time (never happened to me), but so far none have resulted in more than powder gases in the face to the shooter, and the only damage to the guns was done by the nuts trying to remove the forward part of the cases left in the chamber.

[deerslayer]

I appreciate all the advice and welcome other opinions as well. And to recap I have been handpriming with a lee hand primer so I guess when it takes almost no effort to seat the primer i should pitch it. That makes sense. And what is "gas cutting on the case head"? Also I am still unclear as to wether I should neck size after first firing or not, will this promote longer brass life? Also would doing that mean that I don't have to trim it. I hope it does, I hate to trim brass that is the only thing about this hobby so far I do not like. Also I know I seen a thread on annealing so I will look there for questions on that process. Also so far I have been just seating the bullet and using the lee Factory Crimp Die for the crimp on rifle reloads is that O.k. or should I look at other methods.
I am not trying to be a benchrest shooter and to be honest most ammo will be much more accurate than I am. What I am looking for is reasonable consistency that I can build on and improve my shooting skills as well. At the same time safety is always a priority and then I cannot forget the cost either. Either way thanks for all the great advice it is truly amazing the depth of even a small subject like this and the amount of knowledge the people here have.

Thanks, Nate

[deerslayer]

Oh and I forgot to mention I will use the paper clip tip and look at getting rid of my nickel as I do not have much any way. And it is good to know the bolt would contain a mishap.

[dbldblu]

I loaded some 30-06 brass 35 times with mild cast bullet loads. I chucked them at that point because I had a lot of neck splits. If I were loading anywhere near maximum loads, I would not expect that lifetime. I have heard it said that on the third trimming they should be tossed which is probably about right. I do very little loading near max.

[DLCTEX]

Neck sizing will extend case life by eliminating a lot of working of the brass. This will also help curtail stretching, but minimizing the friction of the expander ball when pulling back through the neck will do more to help. Clean and lubricate the inside of the necks. I like to use the Lee collet size die as it neck sizes only and sizes to the point needed . Regular dies go past the needed size, then expand it back with the ball. It has extended the case life for my 22 Hornet to at least double.

[mroliver77]

As Dale said minimal sizing prolongs the life of brass. I like the RCBS dies with the sizer ring in them. You can custom fit to your gun and size only enough to fit a new boolit or bullet. You can also hone out the neck sizing portion of a standard die to minimally size brass but chances are it might be wrong for another gun in same caliber. I just cringe if expander drags very much as that will stretch brass. I had some 06 brass that was very old. One got mixed in with my Garand brass and when fired it blew tiny pieces out and literally looked like a sieve! I only have one eye so I ALWAYS wear safety glasses when shooting. I might go to two pair!! ;)
Jay

[DLCTEX]

BTW, a ring ahead of the base is not always a sign of case failure. Tonight I was sorting brass and found a 303 Brit. case that at first looked as if it was separating. I started to toss it, but thought of this thread and checked it with a wire., no groove. Closer inspection showed it was a sizing mark that had stopped well above the base. I would suggest that if you're not positive, toss it out.

[deerslayer]

Ok still learning from everyone. I will invest in a neck sizing die after my brass is fire formed by my rifles. O.K. another dumb question should I measure each case OAL to know wether or not to trim it? Or when neck sizing do you need to trim less? What would a normal procedure be or is that what the lyman case gauge is for? Thanks Nate

[BD]

It all depends on what you start with, and what you do to it.

.270 WBY brass @ 68,000 psi or so, neck sized only with a generic Redding neck die= about 10 reloads. They die from loose primer pockets and after 15 rounds they will show a thin area just ahead of the belt. This brass is trimmed every time, and after 10 loads if the primers are tight I section a case each time it's reloaded to look at the area just ahead of the belt. I do not shoot this rifle just for fun, and have no need to push for increased brass life. I use this rifle when I'm hunting open ground, or when I have an investment in a hunt where the ranges may be long.

Lapua 6.5 x 55 brass @ 50,000 psi neck sized only with Redding bushing die with the occasional shoulder bump= more than 50 reloads, I'll let you know when the first one fails. using the Lee collet die I got about 20 reloads before the neck got so bumpy that I didn't trust it. The key to this is NO EXPANDER BALL.

Black Hills match .223 brass, neck turned, and neck sized only in custom Redding bushing dies matched to my chamber @ 60,000 psi= at least 20 reloads, I haven't ruined one yet as I have 100's thanks to Tony B's generosity. Again, NO EXPANDER BALL, and this brass is moved very little. The custom dies came about as the result of the first set of high dollar Redding dies I bought not even touching the shoulder. I sent them five fired neck turned cases, two months later I got a set of dies that are so close to my chamber that it's scary. I do need to trim them every 3 or 4 loads, and as that brass comes from somewhere, I will hit a limit at some point provided I get the free time to run another 2,000 to 3,000 rounds through this rifle. I do shoot this "just for fun" whenever I get the chance.

Cut down .284 brass, or Hornady factory brass, used in the .450 Bushmaster at 40,000 psi = seems about like .45 acp brass. I'll lose it before I ever wear it out. This loads just like any straight wall case, except for the crimp. The only rifle I own that I run at higher pressure with cast compared to condoms.

I use a Lee factory crimp die on all of the above. Many don't agree with that practice, but it has worked for me, with no discernible downside. The crimp in the .450 Bushmaster is a custom "waist" crimp into a groove .1 below the case mouth. Without it the .450B is a scatter gun with cast, and it doesn't appear to effect the case life at all; My DCM has seen nothing but Moly from the outset, (another controversial subject), and the Lee FCD cuts the group size in half. IMHO the moly plays heck with neck tension after multiple reloads.

Out of all of these the only brass I really anneal is the bottle neck brass used for cast boolit loads. Those necks really do get worked.
BD

[deerslayer]

O.k so no expander ball. I looked at the lee site and i can't tell is that in the neck sizing die and needs removed when I get it? Also do I need a lyman M die if no expander ball is used to be able to start the bullet into the brass. Sorry guys I am researching on my own but the manufacturers don't give all the details and my reloading books don't cover this that well either so please forgive my ignorance. I do not want to buy a bunch of extra unneeded tools at the same time I want the tools to do it properly. Thanks Nate

[Frank46]

I've loaded r-p 308 brass 10 times and then consigned it to the scrap bucket. Starting loads, mid range loads and almost at the top loads. At that point I figgured they had enough. But my 45acp brass which is of mixed headstamps goes on like the energizer bunny and is over 12 years old. My load is nothing special 4.5 grs titegroup and a 230 grain round nosed bullet. Extremely accurate and although the recoil is up there very controllable as well. Frank

[Blammer]

only thing I'm leary of on rifle brass is case head seperation and usually they give you a sign when it will happen for the next loading. I do things to avoid the beginning stages or I discard the brass if it's close or immenant.

[DLCTEX]

The Lee collet neck sizer does not need the expander ball removed as it does not have one. It has a straight shaft sized to the proper (relative term) inside neck dia.. The amount of neck sizing is controlled by adjusting the die down in the press until the correct amount of neck tension is achieved. The shaft is easily pulled from the case due to springback and does not stretch the case. After initial trimming of a batch of brass I check OAL each time I reload that batch (random samples) until I know what to expect from that batch and load. Then I check it every 4 or 5 times I reload that batch if conditions merit. Of course this requires record keeping and batch control, and goes out the window when you reload for a large number of guns of the same caliber and have brass coming from many sources as I do on some calibers. Then it's FL resize and length check on all cases.

[Wayne Smith]

Deerslayer, if you are gonna load cast in rifle cases it's well worth the investment to get the Lee case neck expander die. It's really a case neck flare die, but it will work on any of your cases and, even if you only need it for one or two calibers, it's a handy tool to have at your hand. Lyman M dies are the better choice but you need at least different internals for each caliber. I'm now loading for over 40 calibers, I invested in the Lee die.

[Matt_G]

A good rule of thumb I read a long time ago (perhaps in an old Lyman manual) especially for bottle-neck cases, is to discard them when they are in need of their fifth trimming. This of course assumes no other problems arise before then.
The thinking here is that as the brass grows in length, that brass is coming from the case walls (near the head) and moving forward. Once the case needs to be trimmed a fifth time, the wall has thinned enough that case separation becomes a real issue.

This makes sense to me because enough brass to make the case grow by .050 inches is quite a bit.

[45 2.1]

Depends on how much it gets worked. I've shot a number of rifles set up for fitted cases (ones which require no sizing to reload save replacing the primer). Those cases are still quite fine at over 250 loads each. H.M. Pope among others used cases this way for target shooting with breech seated boolits with BP. They lost those cases when the primer pocket wore out... at 2500 shots+.

[deerslayer]

Ok so is the lyman and other case gauges there as a go/ no go gauge for when a case needs trimmed? If so I will need to get me one. Thanks Nate

[HORNET]

For what they want for most of those go/no-go case gauges, you'd be better off to get an inexpensive set of calipers. Then you could check case lengths, overall loaded lengths, and a bunch of things that need checked but not with the precision of a micrometer (you still do need a 0-1" mike). I've got a set of digital calipers at work that cost about $15 at a farm supply store.

[NickSS]

That is a difficult question but I will give you what I know. The less you work your brass the longer it will last. By that I mean if you do not need to FL size don't. Bolt guns and single shots rarely require FL sizing for any reason as long as you segregate your brass to that gun. If you are loading for an auto loader you really have to FL size but there are degrees of FL sizing. I have gages for my Semi auto rounds in 223, 308 and 30-06. I drop a fired round into the gage and dial it up and read the length from the shoulder to the head, When I FL size I adjust my die so that I set the shoulder back only .001". When I do this my semi autos function well and I get long brass life out of the case. Never the less, semi autos are hard on brass at best. I only average 6 to 8 reloads per case on the average. In a bolt gun the same brass with the same loads but only neck sized will last twice to three times as long. Some calibers will never wear out with normal use as long as you anneal the necks every 3 or 4 shots. This is especially true of neck sized 45-70 and 38-55 brass and probably true of any straight walled case. I have been loading the same 45-70 brass for about 20 years and know that I reload the same cases about once a month on average. They are loaded with black powder and neck sized only. So I figure they have been reloaded at least 120 times each. I also have some 1918 UMC 30-06 brass that I have been reloading since 1965 and it is still going strong. I have also had brand new brass that failed on the very first shot. This was remington 22 Hornet brass that split longitudinally down the case body. Most brass that does fail has three failure modes. One and most common is a spit neck or case mouth on straight walled cases. This occurs due to work hardening during sizing and belling of brass and can be avoided by annealing the cases every few shots. I only do this for target brass as it is too much trouble for plinking brass in my opinion. The next failure is longitudinal slits down the side of a case. This occures sometimes on new brass that is not properly annealed at the factory but mostly on cases that have been FL sized a lot. Neither of these failures are dangerous to you as I have never even noticed them except when inspecting brass afterward. I have also never seen any problems with my chambers either when they occur. The next failure is incipient or actual head separation. This occurs due to too much FL sizing back to factory settings. Every time you fire the rifle the brass stretches and after a bit you have to trim it. Generally the metal for all this stretching come from the wall thickness in front of the shell head. The first thing you will see is a lighter color circular band in front of the shell head. When you see this scrap the case because the next firing could result in the case head coming off. This is very important to look for in a semi auto rifle that shoots bottle neck cartridges. I have had a number of them happen and what usually occurs is that the shell head is ejected and the shell body stays in the chamber so the next round jams when it telescopes into it. They you have to clear it. With proper inspection you get rid of the brass before this happens. The last type of failure that I have had is purely due to faulty brass from the manufaturer. This is the only failure that I have had which is dangerous to you and or your rifle. It is when the head cracks clean accross. In 446 years of shooting I have had exactly two failures of this type. One occurred with Mil surplus french 30-06 ammo fired in a 98 Colombian Mauser. I got a blast of sound that blew by my head and left me deaf in my left ear for a week and I still have hearing lose and ringing in my ear due to that occurence. The mauser handled the gas well though as none hit me in the face. The second was with commercial Remington ammo 30-06 ammo fired in a 700 Remington rifle. Its a good thing I was wearing hearing protection and shooting glasses as a got a blast of debris and gas in my face. Obviously the Remington rifle did not handle the gas as well as the 98 mauser did. By the way every time I have had brass problems with new brass its been with Remington brass. I have never had trouble with Winchester, federal or Starline brass. I hope this helps you on this complex issue.

[ammohead]

[QUOTE=NickSS;864458]That is a difficult question but I will give you what I know. The less you work your brass the longer it will last. By that I mean if you do not need to FL size don't.

The next failure is incipient or actual head separation. This occurs due to too much FL sizing back to factory settings. Every time you fire the rifle the brass stretches and after a bit you have to trim it. Generally the metal for all this stretching come from the wall thickness in front of the shell head.

Deerslayer,

I wanted to add a bit to what nick had said above. Some size die manufacturers directions tell you to put the full length size die at a position where you can detect a camming action at the end of the stoke of the handle when you size. This setting will set the shoulder back toward the head as far as you possibly can. Not all chambers are cut the same as you can imagine and this usually results in a bit of slop in the fit between the shoulder of the case and the face of the bolt. If this dimension is too "long" you will feel the brass being compressed between the shoulder and the bolt face as you finish closing the bolt.

When the fit is too short and you fire the gun the firing pin will push the brass forward to take up the slop until the case hits the shoulder and the round will fire. This forward movement will leave a space between the case head and the bolt face. This is headspace! The tremendous pressure will cause the case to expand and grab the walls of the chamber in a deathlike grip and the case will be unable to move. Only the unsupported area of the case ahead of the head will be allowed to move back and take up the headspace. This causes the stretching just ahead of the web that results in insipient case head separation. Maybe not on the first firing but eventually.

When the fired brass is removed from the chamber the distance from the shoulder to the head is an exact match of the chamber with the bolt in battery. If you now run that brass back through the full length size die set to allow the camming action, you will set the shoulder back again. What you need to do is to set the sizing die up to the point that will allow full length resizing without changing the position of the shoulder.

The process for determining where that adjustment is, is a matter of feel. If you back the die up a full turn you will probably go past the point that is desired. But as you move the die down a little at a time you will get to a point where the die is sizing the diameter of the case down and actually lengthening the position of the shoulder ever so slightly. If you move the die down and run the brass into the clean chamber of your rifle and close the bolt each time you will feel the bolt handle close hard when you are at this point. I have been able to feel this sweet spot on model 99 savages when they close and even to some degree on my M1A. But it is easiest to detect on bolt rifles and even easier on controlled feed bolts.

When you are at this point you move the die down in very small increments until the shoulder is back where it should be. The bolt will go down with very little or no resistance at all. This is called partial full length resizing and if you can master it on a savage 99 you will be amazed at how small your groups will get, and will see similar results on bolts as well. And your brass will last longer as a result. This eliminates the need for a separate neck size die and will work as good.

You may be able to use this method on brass once fired in another firearm as long as the other chamber is not significantly tighter than yours.

ammohead

[deerslayer]

Ammohead I am still amazed at the knowledge and sheer injenuity (correct that if I am wrong spelling Nazi's) of the people here. I am shooting savage bolt actions and that may be the most economical way to approach this and still maintain brass life and safety. Would I want to remove the expander ball when doing that??
Nick, i am learning that the more i learn the less I know. But the safety aspect you covered puts my mind a little at ease. Other than the brand new bag of remington brass I bought. I actually thought it felt a little heavier than the Winchester brass and might hold up
better. That was on my scale by feel though.
Rick, I do have a set of the digital calipers as well and was just wondering if the case gauge may be easier and quicker when sorting?

[HORNET]

deerslayer, you can set those digital calipers to the specified max. length, use the friction adjustment to lock the slider in place, and then use them as a gauge if you want to. I find it just as easy to just measure each case and set up the trimmer if I find any over what I want (which I determine by checking the chamber, not from the books).

[Gunlaker]

A lot of people here have probably been doing this for longer than me. But here is my opinion:

I don't like the idea of using brass of unknown history. Maybe you can make just as accurate loads from stuff you find at the range, but you'd want to inspect it carefully. My BP loads don't seem to stretch cases much, but for smokeless loads I don't keep a case longer than 3 trimmings. I read that somewhere in a manual somewhere and it seemed like a good idea. If you pick up my tossed brass, it'll likely have been trimmed 3 times and may not have much more safe lifespan.

Say I pay $0.80 for a case. If I shoot it 10 times, it cost $0.08 per shot, if I squeeze 15 shots out of it, it cost $0.05. A case found on the ground would save me only 5 to 8 cents apiece.

I think it also depends on your intended usage, i.e. plinking, or precision shooting, or hunting. For example, my tastes tend toward accurate shooting with single shot rifles. I spend a lot of time trying to cast the perfect bullet. I spend a lot of time trying to make my loads as perfect as possible. I also spend a lot of time on each shot trying to make it as perfect as possible. I don't think using random brass found on the ground moves me anywhere closer to my goal. Although I must admit, I've got a long, long ways to go [smilie=l:

that's my $0.02

Chris.

[deerslayer]

Rick, that is a fine idea for an impromptu gauge once again the injenuity of the people here is quite amazing.
Chris I understand your take on the brass and until I get to be a better shooter the the loads I am making are much more accurate than I am. At 100 yards on a lead sled with j-bullets and mixed brass they just about stay in the same hole. Notice I said on a lead sled not just Nate showing his skills. When I get out a little further I am sure the differences will become evident.

[kryogen]

everything has been said I guess.

If FL sizing, just size the minimum you need to easily close the bolt.
I neck size most of my brass, and anneal every few firings.

I throw away when necks split.

I have not reloaded enough times to tell you how long they will last.

One thing I have found is that neck sizing vs FL, your POI will shift. And different headstamps also.

So, if you adjust your zero with brass that was fired in your rifle, and then neck sized, and from one headstamp, keep in mind that anything else will have a zero shift....

So I now only shoot one headstamp and size them all the same. Or you get holes everywhere.

With the semi auto 223 I dont care, I just process anything and volume throw.... goes boom.

[Artful]

http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f2/1372537d1391636557-citizen-bulova-invicta-seiko-what-bestof-best-big-brand-350-500-range-arisethreadlongsincedead.jpg

[kryogen]

lol i replied to a 2010 thread, didnt have a clue.