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View Full Version : 1st try, terrible results, need some coaching here.



AviatorTroy
04-04-2010, 08:12 PM
Not one to usually ask for help, but Im a bit discouraged. I thought Id try the PP gig with my Lee-Enfield Mk4 sporter. This has a pretty dark and ugly bore (in fact with the black polymer stock I think it is the ugliest rifle Ive ever seen), but despite all this, it is not a bad shooter, usually will do 2 to 2.5 inch groups in my little 75 yard backyard range.

The setup...

Lee C309-170-F, as cast, lo lube, no gas check.

2 wraps of trapezoidal shaped typing paper, soaked through and wrapped with just a bit hanging over the base of the bullet.

Once they dried, lubed with a tiny bit of lanolin between thumb and forefinger, and sized to .314.

Flared the cases just a bit, and seated the boolits over 16 gr of 2400. At this stage, they looked so damn good I thought I just might have something here.

They wouldn't even get on the paper. Of the 20 I loaded up, I ended up having to walk up to 25 yards or so even get them on the paper, and they were just all over the place. Truly abysmal. Some even might have been slightly keyholed.

Anyone see any glaring mistakes here? This just the wrong rifle? I thought if this didn't work I'd try the CTL312-160-2R in the '98 Mauser next.....

docone31
04-04-2010, 08:25 PM
Wrap some up, same as you did, and smear some lapping compound on them.
See if the group doesn't tighten up a bit.
To me, it seems like the load is a pop gun load, and the wrapped casting is too loose in the bore.
I have not had luck with the .309 mold. The nose profile didn't cut it. I went with the Lee C185 .303 B mold.
I almost bet, you will need .316 in the bore.
You will need to get your dies modified once you find your size.

wgr
04-04-2010, 08:32 PM
try them as cast dont size them

303Guy
04-04-2010, 09:42 PM
AviatorTroy, you have done everything to the Tee - you're supposed to fail on your first attempt!:mrgreen: Otherwise you would have embarrased the rest of us. :wink: First off, a dark bore is not a bad thing! You do need enough powder behind your chosen boolit to disintegrate the patch properly and then without leading the bore. 16ge of 2400 sounds a tad light for a patched boolit that may not be a tight fit in the bore. It took 18.2gr of H4227/AR2205 to get a patched 208gr boolit to properly disintegrate the patch in a gun with quite a smooth bore. Those seemed to shoot pretty well in the field. So, perhaps try a little more powder. Do you have a heavier boolit?

You might try the boolits as patched, without sizing.

Could you give me some basic dimensions of your boolit? I'll design you a patch for testing. I need the Ø at the base and where the patch stops at the nose and the distance between those two points. I also need the thickness of the paper you are using (try printer paper).

Ummm.... you called the No4 " ... the ugliest rifle Ive ever seen." :-( You won't think it's so ugly when it starts to perform for you!:mrgreen: Any pics? (Lee Endfields are so ugly that they're beautiful - I love them!)

Just thinking, you have a 75yd range in your backyard and a Lee Enfield? You're in paradise!:drinks:

AviatorTroy
04-04-2010, 09:59 PM
Just the man I wanted to hear from.... Sorry, no picts cause I'm out of town at the moment. Enfields are wonderful firearms, actually this is the rifle Ive owned the longest, and was my first "real gun" as they say, but this one is ugly, I promise. Especially with the commercial black oxide finish I did it with about 20 years ago when my summer job in high school was in a machine shop. [smilie=w:

Anyway, I had the thought that I wasn't running it hard enough to stabilize the bullet while the patch was coming off, but I do like to start conservative. I happen to have some 3031 so I thought 35 grains would be a bit stiffer, might help with the patch. Also, I wonder about my technique. I see some guys have a tail twisted up at the base. Others talk about trimming. Mine sort of turned out with about 1/8" of paper past the base which I folded up as best I could. Didnt really meet up in a "tail", but they were pretty even so I didn't trim it.

AviatorTroy
04-04-2010, 10:06 PM
Just re-read your post, this is what I was using.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=574963

I know it's far less than ideal, but with the long straight shank on the nose portion I thought it might have a chance. I wrapped it up with no lube, and no gas check. Unfortunately, I wont be home for about three weeks so no dimensions are available.

303Guy
04-04-2010, 10:21 PM
Thanks for the kudos! :drinks: Your skirt could be a little short I think. I like printer paper because it wraps so nicely when dry - my prefered method. To get it tight I twist it in my fingers. Then I glue the skirt so it won't unwrap. Once the gue is dry I twist the boolit some more so's the skirt gets crimped over then I use my thumbnail to comlete the 'crimp. I get a pretty neat patch. (Dry patching is more forgiving in that one can undo and re-align the patch. It's a pain gluing but it's worth it to me. The glue must only be on the skirt). My finished and ready for laoding PPCBoos measure in a .318 on the base section that seats in the case mouth. That's not the only way to do it but I have some somewhat old and worn Lee Enfields. When I size my patched CBoos, I roll then on my case lube pad (which is lubed with STP) Not enough STP gets onto the patch to saturate it but it does lube the PPCBoo for sizing. I size to .318 - not necessarily optimum, just what I do at the moment.

Is your No4 a two-groove or five-groove? It makes a difference when it comes to velocity and pressure.

I'm with docone31 on the fire-lapping. (I have my own way of doing it but then I've never been 'conventional'! :mrgreen: )

303Guy
04-04-2010, 10:40 PM
Had a look at the mold. I see it's a .309. You should be able to use it as is when patched, as wgr suggests. Since you have you own backyard range (do you detect a note of envy? :mrgreen: ) you might consider changing one thing at a time. Try the unsized PPCBoo first, then a different paper and only then more 2400. If you can get that powder work you will have a nice, 'quiet' load.

(Did I mention I was envious of your backyard range? :mrgreen: )

P.S. I should send you some molds for testing! Trouble is, I have a back-log of promised molds and I'm not making any progress!:( (Work and home troubles :-?).

herbert buckland
04-05-2010, 12:31 AM
this is a very good post for me as well as i am having the exact same problem,with 38gr of 2208 the boolit is faling apart in the barell leading it up teribly ,i can not make the patch any longer or the seating die destroys the patch,i am wating on a .314 lee push through sizer so i can youse thicker paper the only sizing die that is for the 303 i have at the moment is a .312 RCBS lube die and it is no good fof sizing PPs ,my mould is CBE 315-218 that works realy well whith GC but i am after more velocity and a polished bore

pdawg_shooter
04-05-2010, 07:56 AM
Try this, size your bullet to .001/.0015 over BORE diameter. Wrap with 16# paper, it is strong enough to take the trip don the barrel. Lube and size to GROOVE diameter +.001/.003 or as large as will fit the throat. Seat into the rifling a bit. Load like you would jacketed.

303Guy
04-05-2010, 02:06 PM
That would likely work with the 170gr cast. It wont work for herbert with his long boolit.

I have one gun that takes a 208gr smooth sided boolit, patched and sized to .318 over its length. My 208gr boolit is probably as short as the 170gr. That's how worn/rust damaged that particular rifle bore is!:-?

herbert buckland
04-05-2010, 05:19 PM
That would likely work with the 170gr cast. It wont work for herbert with his long boolit.

I have one gun that takes a 208gr smooth sided boolit, patched and sized to .318 over its length. My 208gr boolit is probably as short as the 170gr. That's how worn/rust damaged that particular rifle bore is!:-?is there any way i can PP the 315-218 boolit from my mould or do i have to get a new mould,if so what mould would you recomend as a strictly PP mould

pdawg_shooter
04-05-2010, 05:34 PM
is there any way i can PP the 315-218 boolit from my mould or do i have to get a new mould,if so what mould would you recomend as a strictly PP mould

Again, size it to .304/.305, patch it with 16# paper and kick it it the butt.

303Guy
04-06-2010, 07:06 AM
Again, size it to .304/.305, patch it with 16# paper and kick it it the butt.I shouldn't have said "it won't work". It could work. The problem with that mold is that it produces boolits with a long bore-ride section at 303 Brit bore size which is around .304/.305, so patching it means the boolit might not chamber - unless it's seated real deep which would be 'not the norm' for the 303 Brit. 303 Brit throats and initial bores can be quite large due to the cordite cartridges used in them but they can also be on spec. I would suggest doing as pdawg_shooter suggested and see how deep the patched boolit will fit in the throat. I have a guage rod I use. Personally, I won't seat down past the neck-shoulder junction or as I would call it, the 'dough-nut'. And 303 Brit cases do form 'dough-nuts'! Your milage may vary.

I have a different guage for my 303-25. It's a case with the primer pocket drilled out and tapped and a threaded rod fitted to act as a seating stop for the boolits being tested in the rifle's throat. I have a pic of it somewhere - I'll probably have to take new pics.

pdawg_shooter
04-06-2010, 08:00 AM
I load the Lyman 311284 sized .304, wrapped with 16# in my #4 Mk2 regularly. Full length patch from start of ogive to base. Seated to max OAL, engraves the paper a little over .200 on chambering. Over a 100% load of 4350 shoots into 1.5 @ 100 with issue sights. Cant ask for any better than that.

303Guy
04-07-2010, 04:25 AM
Over a 100% load of 4350 shoots into 1.5 @ 100 with issue sights. Cant ask for any better than that. :holysheep Wow! Nothing wrong with that! I have a No4 with issue sights and what seems to be a pretty much on spec bore. I was thinking of putting it to use as a paper patch target rifle. Now I'm pretty well encouraged to get on with it! I have a Lee 180gr mold ..... :roll:

herbert buckland
04-07-2010, 06:55 AM
My seating die is .312 my groov diameter is .314 ,i am wating on a lee .314 push trough die to turn up but i still will not be able to seat the PP boolit without modifing the die,or can i leave the bore riding nose unpached ,sofar this has been a disaster,will thicker stronger paper that has been sized work any beter

pdawg_shooter
04-07-2010, 07:58 AM
I prefer to patch full length, I dont want any lead touching the bore. Also with the nose supported by paper you done have the distortion under acceleration that can occur otherwise.

herbert buckland
04-07-2010, 08:17 AM
I prefer to patch full length, I dont want any lead touching the bore. Also with the nose supported by paper you done have the distortion under acceleration that can occur otherwise.that will mean modifing my seating die,or is there another way

pdawg_shooter
04-07-2010, 01:58 PM
If you single load, use un-sized, fire-formed brass. Start bullet by hand and chamber to finish seating the bullet.

6.5 mike
04-07-2010, 09:01 PM
Troy, up your charge, I started with 16 grs of 2400 for my hiwall & got much better groups with 19.5 to 20 grs of 2400. The hiwall is chambered for 30-40 krag so the cases will be close to the same amount of powder. As padawg said try filling the throat may help stop the leading. The reason this is working is with a pp'ed 200 gr lee boolit & 20 grs I'm very close to the starting "j" word loads for 200 gr.
herbertbuckland, when you get your sizer, check it. I have about a dozen & all where on the small side when I got them. Very easy to open up to whatever you need.