Roll crimping

[Johan]

Hello,

I bought a Lyman Forster style mould about 15 years ago, I tryed to load some whith no sucsess, then I read that roll crimp shold be used to get the loads to work. I layed the prodject on ice, some years ago I bought a Ideal roll crimp tool on E-bay and this easter I got some time over.

I loaded four different loads two whith Blue dot and two whith Unique, see the picture. The recoil elevated the sight and I noticed it after the first shot on the third group (thats why the 30 gn Unique got a flyer)

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/_MG_1627.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/_MG_1624.jpg


As you can see the 44 gn Blue dot load works fine but now to the problem. When I crimped the shells, the first six I crimped (the blue dot loads) worked fine. They looked just like factory crimped shells and I was real satisfied. When I crimped the next six shells the roll crimps looked like ****.... and I thought maybe it had to do whith the smaller powder charge.

That was what I thougt was the problem. When I came home from the shooting range I loaded 12 new Blue dot rounds for chronograf test and non of the crimps worked [smilie=b:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/_MG_1628.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/_MG_1629.jpg




What is the problem? I did the same way, and the shells is shortend 1/4" as recomended in the Lyman shotshell book.

The groups is shoot from 30 yards standing whithout any rest. I understand that it is not impossible to get same groups like the Bue Dot 44gn at 50 yards. The rifle is a Remington wingmaster whith a smoothbore slug barrel.

/Johan

[longbow]

Looks to me like you have rolled too much hull over. The rolled edge should just touch the nose of the slug to hold it in place with a bit of compression.

I have rolled very long crimps without getting the apparent hull collapse you have so I am thinking the edge of the edge of the hull bottomed on the nose but you kept compressing so collapsed the front edge of the hull.

Take it in stages and check as you go. When the lip just pushes the nose you are done. If the slug sits deep then add some card wads under the slug to lengthen the wad column and raise the slug.

I have to say that your groups look pretty good for Lyman Foster slug. I have considered myself lucky to get 8" groups at 50 yards with the Lyman Foster. I gave up on the Lyman because it is so far under bore size it rattles down the barrel (casts at 0.705" diameter) but is too big to fit into a shotcup. It does swell to fill the barrel when fired but slugs recovered from snow show uneven skirt and cocked nose. Paper patching to bore size helped some.

I have gotten better results with other slugs and round balls.

That Blue Dot load looks like it is shooting for you though. Good work!

Longbow

[Harmon_Greer]

I'm crimping full length hulls with the old star crimp in place with better results than that. I can't get them to star crimp for nuthin

[Ferdinand]

I've only a little experience roll crimping - 200 or so rounds. It looks like the crimper got too hot you the crimp process was slow allowing heat to build up excessively and melt the hull. That's just a guess though, based on the photos.

[Johan]

Hello again,

Thanks for helping me with my problem, I think I know why my later crimps didn't worked. I load my shells in a Lee load all press an the first six shells I compressed the powder charge and the fiber wad a little bit and I didn't do that on the other. I loaded some new this evening and pushed down the wad and nitro cards 1.10" from the shell mouth. and then it looked like this:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b182/johanj/_MG_7845.jpg

The left one is a factory Remington Slugger their crimp looks much slimmer than mine, something I do or do I need a different tool? Is it something to care about?

/Johan

[hcpookie]

Personally I've had good success with the roll crimps looking like yours. I know if the tool is hotter (use on a discarded shell to warm it up) it tends to work better. Occasionally I do get some like the factory roll crimp but not often :) Not sure how it will affect accuracy either way...

Also some dry spray lube like silicon lube can work. Oil lubes are not recommended since they could seep and contaminate the powder. With the plastic hotter and softer it tends to form up better, but I still get the wrinkles.

I think you can get or make a "skivver" that shaves the inside of the plastic to make it thinner, so that it rolls up better at the expense of reduced shell life.

[klcarroll]

The quality of the Roll Crimp Tool is everything!!

I must have tried six old tools, and a dozen homemade attempts before I finally broke down and bought the Roll Crimp Tool from Precision Reloading.

I use a little benchtop drill press to spin the tool; ……And you have to work to see the difference between my crimps and the ones the factory turns out!

…..And I am doing nothing mysterious with the Hulls or the loads in them!! I trim only 1/8” off of previously fired hulls, and use an 1/16” overshot card if I’m loading shot, ……and no overshot card if I’m loading slug or round ball.

Spend the $25 for a really good tool! …..You’ll spend the next six months patting yourself on the back!!

Kent

[tommygirlMT]

Klcarroll, although I agree with what you are saying about PR's roll crimping head being the best out there right now --- not sure they would ship to the OP's location --- and even if they did it would probably both a hassle and expensive.

Not everyone on this forum has the same access level to tools and components as the majority of us in the U.S. have.

[longbow]

I use a home made roll crimper made from a universal joint cup off my wife's old Ramcharger.

Machined a bit of a taper to the inside, drilled a 3/8" hole through it, ran a 3/8" bolt through that, drilled and tapped 6 holes at mid bolt head height for 10 - 24 screws, turned the threads off the ends where the hull runs then screwed those in to clamp the flats on the bolt head. Not fancy but works well.

I have a small lathe but I bet this could be done with a drill press only or even hand tools for those inclined to make their own or without access to factory items. Having said that I would bet roll crimpers are available in Sweden.

Longbow

[Harmon_Greer]

my lyman manual mentions nothing of cutting hulls down to roll crimp them? is this in a later edition or older? i use the 4th editiion...

[skeettx]

Hello All
Lyman made a roll crimping tool

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-002S14.JPG

If you are going to use a drill press, they go too fast. I made an intermediate pulley set up to slow things down

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-003S15.JPG

Hope this helps

Mike

[longbow]

Very nice skeettx!

The key word there is "made". Don't think those are too common anymore.

I have always wanted one but have as yet to find one.

You make a good point too about speed. I forgot to mention that. I use my little lathe on a slow speed but too much speed = too much heat and maybe destroyed crimp/hull.

Longbow

[Harmon_Greer]

What manual tells you to cut thehulls to crimp them?

[Johan]

What manual tells you to cut thehulls to crimp them?

Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook 5th Edition.

I read it in the chapter about roll crimping, not in the reloading data chapter, so the reloading data is for uncut hulls if I got it right.


skeettx, your old Lyman roller looks nice, I'm interested in old Lyman and Ideal reloading tools.

/Johan

[Johan]

The quality of the Roll Crimp Tool is everything!!

I must have tried six old tools, and a dozen homemade attempts before I finally broke down and bought the Roll Crimp Tool from Precision Reloading.



Is this the crimp tool that you mentioned?

http://www.midwaysverige.com/apps/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?SaleItemID=730142

You're right tommygirlMT, shotshell reloading isn't very big here in Sweden and buying gun related stuff from US isn't that easy like it used to be :cry:

I found this at a Swedish dealer and I think that is what I can find over here, Midway Sweden sells once fired but they cost alot more. http://www.staffansvapen.se/handladdning/hagelladdning/hylsortaendhattar/index.html

Are those shells ok, the shells I have used now are sheep trap shells I found at the range and the quality isn't so good, the primers are pushed out when I'm seating the fiber wads on some of them.

/Johan

[skeettx]

Hello All,

Here goes,
Johan, the first six did OK and then the roll crimp tool heated up.
Slow does the RPMs on the crimping process.

Longbow, instead of changing all the pulleys, you can use the back gear feature on your lathe, you using an Atlas 6" Lathe?

As for cutting the hulls, I used 3 inch hulls cut to 2 3/4 to remove the star crip section, if you are using virgin 2 3/4 hulls, you will not have that issue.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=104

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=61

On the Lyman cast slug, with the open bottom cavity, the over powder wadding is sometime blown up into the cavity.
To remidy that, when I loaded lots of slugs, I used TWO Winchester AA red wads with the petals cut off, Unique powder and roll crimped, all was well.

Mike

[sargenv]

Personally,

The best hulls I've found to accept a roll crimp after being factory loaded and fired has to be the lavender Fiocchi target hulls. There is a lot of room iside the hull and the area where the fold crimp seems to accept a rill crimp works well for me. I use the hull vice from Ballistic Products and the roll crimp tool chucked in a drill press.. I have made hundreds of loads with this hull and they seem to work really well. Once I roll crimp them, I put them into the final bevel crimp station on my MEC Sizemaster to take the edge off and give them a nice taper so that when loaded in repeating shotguns they feed as slick as a new regular shotshell.

[klcarroll]

@Johan;

No, ......The tool sold by Precision Reloading is not a "cross-pin style" tool.

I was unimpressed with ALL of the tools that featured either cross-pins or screws to create "bumps" in the bottom of the crimping groove. (....And this includes about a dozen attempts produced on my own lathe!)

The PR tool has a crimping groove that is cut on a piece of CNC machinery that is capable of "Spiral Interpolation". The grove is cut with a ball end mill, and the Spiral Interpolation is used to form four ascending ramps in the bottom of the groove, instead of the multiple "bumps" created by the cross pins in the older, simpler designs.

The result is a much smoother, positive, and more precise rolling surface.

I have yet to figure out a way to duplicate this series of cuts on my manual machinery.


Kent

[hcpookie]

@Johan;

No, ......The tool sold by Precision Reloading is not a "cross-pin style" tool.

I was unimpressed with ALL of the tools that featured either cross-pins or screws to create "bumps" in the bottom of the crimping groove. (....And this includes about a dozen attempts produced on my own lathe!)

The PR tool has a crimping groove that is cut on a piece of CNC machinery that is capable of "Spiral Interpolation". The grove is cut with a ball end mill, and the Spiral Interpolation is used to form four ascending ramps in the bottom of the groove, instead of the multiple "bumps" created by the cross pins in the older, simpler designs.

The result is a much smoother, positive, and more precise rolling surface.

I have yet to figure out a way to duplicate this series of cuts on my manual machinery.


Kent

You'd need a rotating table that tilts in order to adjust the head to an angle for that cut, using a really small end mill. Or build a model from wood to cast the final piece from brass, assuming you have a foundry.

The roll pin idea could be modified to imitate those ramps by using bolts instead of pins - tap the crimper with 4 or 6 holes for the bolts, then machine the bolts so that they have a flat surface. Screw them in/out until they have that angle on them, then loctite or stake them in place. :)

Personally I have had good luck with my home-built roll crimper that has the pins removed (using the pin holes) for a "negative" roll pin effect.

[steg]

Where can a roll crimp tool be purchased? I'm looking for one for a .410..............steg

[shotman]

Ballistic Products has good ones.
For the slugs cut the shell off even with the top of slug and seal with bee wax.
Did I see 44gr blue dot? you are in for a very rough time

[Johnch]

Where can a roll crimp tool be purchased? I'm looking for one for a .410..............steg


Here you go
http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=ROLL_CRIMPER

As the other guys have stated
The roll crimpers from Precision Reloading are far above the quality of those sold by Balistic Products oor Midway

John

[skeettx]

Hello
I have had a couple of questions about my roll crimpers

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-034S11.JPG

One is direct drive
One is double drive
One needs a pulley with handle, mounting bracket and a handle for the other end also
Anyone have a spare pulley?
I think that I may be able to find a handle from a broken Lyman 45 sizer, hopefully.
I can make a bracket from metal.
Thanks
Mike

[skeettx]

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful

I went to Ebay and searched for "Vintage Lyman" many things came up, but one was a Lyman Primer Pocket Reamer.
WELL, I remembered I had one way back in a drawer that I have NEVER used since I use another primer pocket swager.

So, I found it and it had a brad inserted, I sharpened a punch and removed the brad and below is what has happened.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/MVC-035S11.JPG

YEEEE HAWWW, I now have the handle that I needed for the crimper.

Still looking for a Browning OK50 pulley.

Mike

[raffica]

Hi,I am raffica.
I am from Italy.
I greet all of you.
I apologize for my English, I use Goole Translator.
I am also Reloader 12 gauge.
Maybe I can be helpful.
I use a Drill Press and an Hard Iron Roll Crimp Tool built here in Italy.
The drill has a mechanical stop so the cartridges are the same height.
The best speed to run the roll crimp with Plastic Hull's is 800-900 rpm, for Paper Hull's is 500 rpm and Roll Crimp Tool is different.
To have a good cartridge is important to close the roll crimp using about 7-8 mm
( 0.275"-0.314")tube free with a Plastic Hull's long 70 mm (2 3/4),wad slightly compressed.
To avoid too much heat on Hull and Roll Crimp Tool Time will be 3-4 seconds max.
I use Silicon Oil and spray inside the Tool every 10-15 crimp, so do not contamine of oil inside the Hull.
I cast Slug and # 00 ,# 3, # 4 Buckshot.
I use Molds LEE (1 Oz), Lyman (525 grain Sabot) and Sharpshooter,Melter Lee Pro 4-20 and Lead Alloy : 3.5% Antimony Rest Lead ,is good.
I hope to be helpful.
Cordiality
raffica

[skeettx]

Hello
Welcome to the site.
GREAT post and good english, wonderful
Thank you
Could you post a picture of your hard iron roll crimp tool?
How do you slow down your drill press to 500 rpm?
Thank you
Mike

[cajun shooter]

Precision Reloading is the place to go. I had all kinds of problems until I did as klcarroll posted and purchased the one from them. They also sell a plastic roll crimper for paper hulls that is great also. Skeettex, Drill press belt gearing is the same as you have shown and is very fast to change to a slower speed to roll crimp. My bench top has 6 speeds. If you are good with the trigger finger you can make a 1/2 in Dewalt work pretty good . Not as fast as the drill press though. Since buying my crimper from Precision Reloading my Mec Sizemaster crimp stage is full of dust.

[raffica]

Hello
Welcome to the site.
GREAT post and good english, wonderful
Thank you
Could you post a picture of your hard iron roll crimp tool?
How do you slow down your drill press to 500 rpm?
Thank you
Mike


Thank's Mike
My Drill Press have only 900 rpm.
I use only Plastic Hull and has 4 tools.
These are my Hard Iron Roll Crimp Tool( from left to right):
- Roll Crimp Tool ( wehn I use overshot disc,the central plane is convex to avoid damaging the disc)
- Roll Crimp Tool (specific to Slug)
- Roll Crimp Tool to finish the Star Crimp( the central plane is flat )
- Star crimp Tool ( 6 segments)

[raffica]

My Drill Press .
This is a Prototype, soon time will build the Improved Version.

[skeettx]

WOW!!! I really like your roll crimping press !! Wonderful.
Thanks for the pictures
What gauges of roll crimping heads are available?
I also load for 24 and 32 gauge
Mike

[cajun shooter]

It appears that this piece of equipment has a Lee press base and then some very good machine work to complete the equipment.

[raffica]

WOW!!! I really like your roll crimping press !! Wonderful.
Thanks for the pictures
What gauges of roll crimping heads are available?
I also load for 24 and 32 gauge
Mike
Hello Mike.
Thank's.
With this press you can work all gauges, of course you have to change the tool's.
Bruno

[raffica]

It appears that this piece of equipment has a Lee press base and then some very good machine work to complete the equipment.

The idea is to have a drill press that takes up little space.

[skeettx]

Once again, wonderful, I like the length stop idea.
What motor system did you use to power the roll crimp head?
Thanks
Mike

[raffica]

Once again, wonderful, I like the length stop idea.
What motor system did you use to power the roll crimp head?
Thanks
Mike

Hello Mike ,
I do not know if I understood the question.
Here in Italy the electric voltage as 220V 50 Hz
Features:
Elecric Motor monophase 350 Watt (less than 1\2 Hp ) 900 rpm.
Flange mounting front.

Bruno

[skeettx]

Hello
Yes you understood the question
Thanks for the answer
Mike

[Zippster]

Here you go
http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=ROLL_CRIMPER

As the other guys have stated
The roll crimpers from Precision Reloading are far above the quality of those sold by Balistic Products oor Midway

John

Awww, man... I just decided to get into roll crimping and ordered the BPI roll crimp
tool yesterday. Anyone else used them?