Home-made Brenneke Slugs?

[Y-man]

Hiya, good to be back on the forum.

I have a new project I’m working on, and I need some advice.
I have in the past done some stuff on “home-made” Foster slugs with varied results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWLYKJG1-W0

I used to get very good and consistent accuracy before, when I cast less than full bore slugs, (Thick skirts.) I used to get 3”groups at 37 yards.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/24/turning-birdshot-into-slugs-for-self-defense/

But recently: I noticed very wide discrepancies with my accuracy, even with new full-bore .729’ slugs. I went shooting the other day, just like other days recently, and could not hit an 8’ x 11’ target at 20 yards! (Strangest thing was that I hit all AROUND the target!)

I remembered some of the accuracy I got with solid slugs before, and came up with another project: "home-made Brenneke slugs!"

I have gotten some made, using screws to hold the felt wads to the rear of the slug: see pics.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/sets/72157623638232159/

But I realized this is too stressful: getting the screws to align properly and all... So now I have another “crazy” idea:

I plan to cast solid slugs (.630’) nice and aerodynamic, then “glue” these to the plastic cup wads (After cutting off the petals) of regular birdshot shells like I have been using... The idea is that the slug will be glued to the wad, and thus would be “front-heavy” and have the wad stabilizing it for good flight. So the wad does not separate, and is “fixed” to the slug all the way to target.

Now my questions:
1. Do you think it would work like that? Would the wad actually “stick” to the slug if one had/ used the right glue/ adhesive?

2. What kind of glue/ adhesive could one possibly get, that would hold the slug to the wad, and not separate under the stress of firing? I have JB Weld: would that do? What about liberal application of industrial strength “super-glue”?

3. If this may not work: what do you think could work? (Apart from the PITA screw thingy...)

Crazy idea, I know... But universes have been built on "crazy ideas"! Your advice, opinion would be MUCH appreciated!

Thanks.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings Y Man, here's what I had posted in another forum and I hope you will find it helpfull.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=118&t=206795
Ajay
www.PreciousVideoMemories.Com

[Johnch]

I am working on a slug design of my own

I am using either a Lyman or Lee slug designed to be inside a standard wad , I have both moulds

Instead of a standard wad
I am using a Wad I have gotten from Ballisticproducts (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=0207078) ( Ask to make sure they are unsplit ) Precisionreloading (http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PRE&Product_Code=TUWSBL24&Category_Code=WADS_BASCH_PELL) ( better price normaly )
Both import and sell the same wad under different names

It is a unslit steel shot wad , designed for 7/8 oz of steel shot
I am filling the extra space under the slug with hard card wads and pushing the slug in to fit flush or slightly proud of the wad mouth

As both the Lyman and Lee slugs fit supper tight

I plan on trimming the wad as needed to allow for proper height

I have 50+ of each made up
But so far I have only loaded and fired 3

But the 3 shots with a decent amount of Bluedot were decently accurate
But I held off loading more till I got a lb of Longshot and Pro Reach to use

Loading and testing will be my after Turkey Season and Wallye run project

John

[longbow]

Y-man:

I have tried several different ways of making home made Brennekes and so far I have to admit failure using screw on base wads. I have made several attempts but all have given poor accuracy and I think it is just small inconsistencies in alignment that do it. That and failed base wads.

I tried long skirt filled hollow base slugs to try to make things more consistent as well. The idea being that the skirt is cast so very consistent then filled with hot melt glue to keep it from collapsing. This was a total failure.

I had some successes with AQ style slugs but too many fliers. AQ's are like a Brenneke but use a ball shaped slug with nylon wad attached.

Lately I went back to full bore solid slugs with screwed on basewad but found they cocked when entering the forcing cone and again, accuracy was poor.

I remembered getting more consistent accuracy when using undersize slugs to fit into shotcups so decided to try an AQ style slug but inside a shotcup. This is showing promise!

Here is a link to my post:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=75860

I have made similar slugs in the past but usually using round ball. I found the glue bond tended to separate I think due to the curved surface. This one is a solid slug with just a screw hole cast into it. I run a screw in then cast hot melt glue in a form and eject the slug after the glue is solid. They are not perfect but they are quite consistent and so far accuracy is promising.

My thinking is that the shotcup helps the slug through the forcing cone and while I like full bore slugs, these are almost full bore and using standard shotcups is actually easier than using stacked hard card wad columns.

The mould is very easy to make. Mine is a similar to but little more complicated than your mould but you could make the same type of slug simply by changing your hollow base plug for a small spike to leave the screw hole.

I use a 1/2" ABS pipe coupling bored to the same diameter as the slug, lube it with grease, slide the slug in with screw up then fill with hot melt glue to the top. Let cool then push the slug out. The couplings are readily available here and are cheap but any type of plastic pipe or tubing of the right size would work. Even metal pipe or tubing should work.

I will try to get out to shoot some more then post results.

Longbow

PS: These were all shot through an 8" diameter poplar tree then into a rocky bank so they seem fairly tough. I even recovered a couple with the skirts still attached.

[hcpookie]

Some good ideas! I've been interested in seeing some Lightfoot-style slugs get made up, where the slug has a narrow base that sits in a specially shapped wad/skirt. Finding something to use as that skirt is the hard part. These screw-in solutions look very interesting! Would you use a deep wad like a 114 style or load them directly over a gas seal?



3. If this may not work: what do you think could work? (Apart from the PITA screw thingy...)


What about this - could you make a long stem so that the slug looks like a mushroom, then "crimp" the bottom of the "stem" over the back of the wads. Kind of like a rivet. It would only take a tap on a hammer to form the "crimp".

[longbow]

hcpookie:

Not saying they can't be made to work as I am sure someone has done it but so far I have been largely unsuccessful using screwed on wads, at least in bore diameter slugs. Two main reasons:

- wad failure/distortion: I have as yet to find anything that has not cut or distorted at firing. Stacked plastic disks may work or cut lengths of plastic rod

- misalignment and bending of the screw: I have recovered several slugs that show they cocked as they entered the forcing cone, some I was very surprised at as the slug was long and had a long attached wad too.

So far I have had better success using a shotcup and somewhat undersize slug to fit.

As for the "mushroom", that was my first thought when I made the new mould but two things stopped me:

- Weight: I was looking for a slug of 500 to 500 grs and adding a stem would increase weight or I would have to reduce the weight from the nose and at 500 to 600 grs it didn't leave much nose. Again. not saying it can't work but I figured a screw is easy and light so the trailing mass is kept light as well.

- Strength of the stem: Based on seeing bent screws, I figured a stem would have to be pretty thick so heavy and that takes us back to the above.

Not sure what a "Lightfoot" style slug is but I made a teardrop shaped slug with wad attached to the narrow end. Didn't work well at all due to both of the first reasons. A plastic rod "skirt" might give enough support but too much work for me.

I also tried a ball with a screw in it set on a short piece of copper tube then filled with hot melt glue. Those seemed to work fairly well but are a bit tedious to make and I can't find tubing large enough so had to patch to diameter then load in a shotcup. If you could get tubing swaged or flaired to bore size or to fit into a shotcup tightly these have potential.

This is all a learning experience though and lots of people are trying lots of things so it is all good sharing of knowledge and experience.

Let us know how you do.

Longbow

[hcpookie]

Apologies, I was meaning Lightfield slugs!

http://www.lightfieldslugs.com/Lightfield/

Look closely and you'll see their slug is almost shaped like a "T" in that the stem centers the wad/skirt which looks more like a tube end or plastic cap

[longbow]

I kinda thought you meant Lightfield but wasn't sure. They are similar to the Hammerhead design too.

I had thought about the mushroom stem but figured it would put too much weight too far back for a smoothbore. The thought had been to make a slug mould with a stem, put the slug in a form stem up, pour in hot melt glue to encase the stem to fit snuggly into a shotcup.

I find hot melt glue is the poor man's "injection moulded" plastic for this type of stuff. Cheap, easy to use and quite tough ~ you just don't want it rubbing on the bore! In fact I wipe lube on mine before putting them into shotcups just to be sure they don't stick. Works well.

I have also used paper forms (one wrap cylinders) with glue inside as an attached wad for full bore slugs.

Lots of options to play with.

Longbow

[Y-man]

Hey, thanks Longbow.
As always: your idea was spot-on! I kind of worked with your idea (It isn’t patented, I hope? :-) and this is what I did:
1. I drilled holes into the slugs (Instead of casting with a screw-hole.) using a 3.5 drill-bit. This takes a screw perfectly! (Sounds terribly naughty!)
2. I have a bit of aluminum tubing that is perfect as a mold for the hot glue “wad”: the slug with screw in place sits perfectly at one end (It even has a lip: so the slug sits correctly flat. The screw is centered in the tube perfectly too... So the slug sits on the lip as you can see in diagram below.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4494872650/

3. I don’t have hot glue at home yet, and with the Easter holidays: no shops open, but I’m going to do a test cast with candle wax... (I’m NOT going to shoot it!)
Questions:
1. Do you use a hot glue gun to melt the glue and cast, or you melt larger quantities of hot glue in some kind of ladle then pour, or something?
2. This hot glue (Which is available in hardware stores here, but which I have never used...) when it cools: is it a rigid, solid mass? Or does it form a sort of jelly-like substance (Like silicone gel.)
3. How long does the hot glue take to cool?
4. Can I use masking tape to patch slug and wad to almost bore-size? (Still inside shot cup.)
5. I have 3 different molds: but is it better to work with the one that produces slugs that are more cylindrical, than the ones that are more conical?

[longbow]

Y-man:

I'll try to answer as best as I can where I can below under your questions:

1. I drilled holes into the slugs (Instead of casting with a screw-hole.) using a 3.5 drill-bit. This takes a screw perfectly! (Sounds terribly naughty!)

- It does sound naughty but it works and I have done this too. It is just easier to use a small conical ejector which forms the screw hole and ejects the slug nicely. I have a small lathe though so that makes making "stuff" easier.

2. I have a bit of aluminum tubing that is perfect as a mold for the hot glue “wad”: the slug with screw in place sits perfectly at one end (It even has a lip: so the slug sits correctly flat. The screw is centered in the tube perfectly too... So the slug sits on the lip as you can see in diagram below.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4494872650/

- I would be inclined to bore the tube to about 0.680" (to suit the shotcup inside diameter) all the way through so the glue wad and slug are the same diameter. I used a plastic pipe coupling and bored it to match the slug.

3. I don’t have hot glue at home yet, and with the Easter holidays: no shops open, but I’m going to do a test cast with candle wax... (I’m NOT going to shoot it!)
Questions:
1. Do you use a hot glue gun to melt the glue and cast, or you melt larger quantities of hot glue in some kind of ladle then pour, or something?

- I use a plain old hot melt glue gun and squirt the glue into the form and around the screw. Don't forget to use a release agent on the form ~ I am using wheelbearing grease right now but any heavy oil, lard, grease, maybe cooking oil or similar should work. I would not use wax as it will likely melt and may not keep the glue from sticking to the form.

2. This hot glue (Which is available in hardware stores here, but which I have never used...) when it cools: is it a rigid, solid mass? Or does it form a sort of jelly-like substance (Like silicone gel.)

- Here there are at least three types of hot melt glue available:
1) Regular strength which is a bit soft and rubbery but should work
2) Craft glue which melts at quite low temperature and is probabl too soft but I do not know for sure
3) High strength which is an amber colour here and quite hard ~ this is what I use.
4) Something else that might work is tree resin. We have a product here called Ferr-L-Tite which was used a lot before epoxies and modern glues were available. It was made from tree resin (pine tree I believe) and is basically hot melt glue. I use it to attach tips to my wood arrows and it used to be used a lot for putting ferrels on fishing rods.
5) Now that I mention epoxies, they would probably work too. I think silicone sealer would be too soft but again, it may work.

3. How long does the hot glue take to cool?

- Good question. I would say about 15 minutes before I can push the finished slug out of the mould with just air cooling and using the plastic coupling which insulates. My plan is to make a dozen or so forms so I can make up batches of slugs. Using metal tubing it will cool faster. Also, once the glue is firm and not sticky it can be cooled with water which will speed things up.

As a comment, I like the long cooling time and heat I feel in the slug because I think it provides a better bond to the slug than rapid cooling. Maybe not an issue but I have had the glue bond separate when I made AQ style slugs this way but no insulating form (similar design but using round ball).

4. Can I use masking tape to patch slug and wad to almost bore-size? (Still inside shot cup.)

- I can't see why not. It takes a bit of time but if you don't have tooling to get slug and wad cast at the size you need, masking tape should work. The expansion of the glue wad on firing may cause the tape to tear though. You will have to try it to find out.

5. I have 3 different molds: but is it better to work with the one that produces slugs that are more cylindrical, than the ones that are more conical?

- I am assuming you mean flat nose wadcutter style versus conical nose. Shotgun slugs are not very aerodynamic so I doubt it will make much if any difference to trajectory. The wadcutter style will hit with authority for sure while the conical may penetrate better. Hard to say without seeing the slugs but again large stubby shotgun slugs aren't ballistically efficient and due to size hit hard anyway so maybe no real difference.

If you are hunting at moderate range the blunt slug should do more damage and make a larger wound channel.

If you are concerned about say penetrating car bodies/door panels then the conical might have an advantage.

I hope that helps.

Longbow

[Y-man]

Hello guys, greetings Longbow.
I did some more work and thinking, and came up with this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4503415311/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4504044980/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4503410439/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4504040140/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4503419939/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4504049878/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4503430401/

I used the cap off a toothpaste tube to fabricate a plastic skirt for my slugs! It looks good! Really looks like a shuttlecock. I’m hoping when I test, it will work fine. (There’s an ammo shortage here now. I hope it clears soon.) My concern is that the skirt could fail: but maybe with some care on the “crimping” the compression will not be too much.

You can be sure that the neighborhood urchins have found a new job: finding and washing discarded toothpaste tube caps for the “crazy pot-bellied man in the big green house”! I will also look for where I can buy stock of the new caps (Maybe from the companies who make toothpaste tubes in Nigeria.)

I screwed it unto the slug, and also used super-glue to hold it. It will sit perfectly inside a shotcup.

Slugs: as mentioned: blunt ones, conical ones: I have cast them.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4504081832/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4504070344/

They are .0669’ in diameter for the blunt ones, and .708’ for the conical ones. Obviously going to need some patching!

Check out the pictures.

All here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/sets/72157623807783250/

[longbow]

Y-man:

Interesting idea! I have tried many things but not toothpaste tube caps!

I suggest filling the cap with hot melt glue or something fairly substantial ~ maybe epoxy. Even silicone might work.

My worries are:

- the cap may break when the round is fired if not supported well then accuracy will be poor
- if the cap breaks you have short fat slug that may roll and gouge your barrel with the screw ~ brass screws are a good choice here (ask how I know)
- even if the cap doesn't break, the wad will likely blow into the hole unless is is filled or you use a hard plastic disk or nitro card wad under the slug (I am asssuming this slug fits into a shotcup)

The 0.669" slugs might be slightly small for standard shotcups. If so I have found that cross paper patches work well ~ that is two strips or sets of strips to get the right thickness ~ set at 90 degrees to each other under the slug then folded around from bottom to top. Easy to do and releases at the muzzle.

The 0.708" slugs will likely be too big for a shotcup. I have trouble with 0.690" ~ needs thin petals. You might try paper patching those with 2 or 3 wraps like the BP guys do. I have done that with the Lyman Foster slug at 0.705".

Let us know how the tests go.

Good luck.

Longbow

[Harmon_Greer]

your scope is mounted directly to the receiver correct?

accuracy could be failing due to the barrel moving independently from the receiver from shot-to-shot.

check your magazine tube and barrel nut for tightness. you may add some aluminum tape between the barrel and receiver to tighten it up.

i dont think the old slugs are the problem.

[Y-man]

Hello, Thanks!

I had thought about what Longbow said: and had the SAME ideas:
1. Filling the cavity with hot-glue.
2. Concern about the Toothpaste tube cap failing and the slug tumbling even BEFORE leaving the barrel, with the catastrophic gouging effect...

I don't think its worth it.

I agree with Harmon: in retrospect: I think all this inaccuracy started AFTER I did my first disassemble/ cleaning of my Mossberg 500 A. So obviously, my barrel no longer fits perfectly.

I'm not going to risk a gouged barrel, so I'm going to:
A. Go back to Foster type slugs. But instead of casting the cavities: I will use a drill. Drill out the cavities. That way, I will have a thick skirt, and I can fill the cavities with hot-glue, AND use a hard plastic card to stop what I like to call the "Bang-wedgie"!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4504072740/

B. I'm going to work more towards fabricating a good rear sight on the barrel itself rather than the receiver. (I had long ago removed the scope and stopped using it. Maybe I'll think of a way to use it on the barrel itself?) With front and rear sights both on the barrel, what could go wrong?

I will later experiment with 2 Foster type slugs of maybe .5 oz each, for a "duplex-Foster" both paper patched and inserted within a shotcup. Imagine those hitting a target just barely separated! Double impact there!

One quick question, please: can I patch with cloth? (Instead of paper...) Maybe little squares of cotton?

Many thanks for your advice and opinions!

[Dave Berryhill]

I'm just curious - how are the wads or bases attached to the Brenneke and AQ slugs?

The Brenneke slugs seem to fall into 2 styles, one with a felt (?) wad or base
http://www.brenneke-munition.de/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Produkte/L_Classic_Magnum_01.jpg

and the other style with a plastic wad or base in various shapes:
http://www.brenneke-munition.de/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Produkte/KO_12_01.jpg

The AQ:
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/images/slug_aq.JPG

If the hollow base has a lip or shoulder so the plastic wad can be locked into place, it would make it difficult to drop the slugs from the mold so how are they attached?

[longbow]

The old style Brenneke with felt wads are screwed on... or at least they were in the old days when I was young.

I believe the new plastic wad style use a stem on the cushion leg that fits into the hollow base slug.

AQs are basically a swaged 0.730" ball with flat bottom and a hole about 3/8" diameter just over 1/2 way through. There is a stem on the finned skirt/wad that is a press fit into the hole.

I like the attached wad idea way better than Foster slugs but getting the attached wads very neatly made and attached is the problem at least for me. I have tried several materials all with mediocre to poor results. Generally from what I can tell, the wad column either isn't "perfectly" assembled or it becomes ragged when fired so resulting in poor accuracy.

This is the reason I have gone to hot melt glue. It is cheap, readily available, easy to use and when poured into a form the skirt/wad is neat and consistent. So far it is looking good but more testing is required.

Longbow

[Y-man]

Well, I think I have pay-dirt! I have made further improvements and came up with a new mold, and new slugs.

Check these out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/sets/72157624028920569/

Let me know what you think?

Thanks!

[randyrat]

Nice, I like your inginuity with simple tools.... How did you get the hollow base in the last slug you made.

[Y-man]

@randyrat,

I fabricated a plug which forms that cavity well...I hold it to the mold using magnet. Check it out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4656940992/
Please also see additional modifications to my mold.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4656947504/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4656313683/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/44877118@N04/4656929450/

[Johnch]

Nice how you used what you had on hand for handles

John

[KevMT]

Y-man,

Your ingenuity is truly inspiring. [smilie=w: Keep the reports coming. Have you accuracy tested your latest design yet?

Kev