Barrel Leading 45ACP Noob question

[doug strong]

I just got a Springfield 1911 today and took it to the range I ran about 200 rounds of Winchester bulk pack through it and it worked like a dream. However I really want to shoot Lead booolits out of it. I have a Lee mould I like for a 200g Semi-Wadcutter that punches nice holes in paper. The round fed well and seemed to fire accurately. I only had 30 empty cases so that is all I loaded up. When I got home the leading was awful. Mostly it was concentrated around the muzzle end. Can anything be learned from this? Is my boolet too hard? Is the Powder charge too weak? Is there not enough Alox lube? Help me sort this out please.

[sagacious]

What happened to the 200 pcs of Win brass? :?

You need to provide more info, as all you'll get are complete guesses-- which may make the situation worse.

Please provide your sizing info for your bullets, and barrel ID measurement. Provide your alloy info, and outline your Alox process. Provide your complete reloading recipe and loading process from A to Z.

Only by providing this info can you hope to receive competent, reliable help in resolving your problem.

Standing by. :drinks:

[mpmarty]

+1 on "need more data". However you say the lead deposits are near the muzzle. This would normally indicate insufficient lube. What are you using? In other words, we need more data.

[runfiverun]

was the copper cleaned out of the bbl?
if you have a tight spot down there and it was copper washed the lead could stick to it if it was cleaned and you have a tight spot.....
might just need a second coat of the alox too.

[462]

Doug,
Leading at the muzzle is a symptom of insufficient lube.

[doug strong]

My info may be hit and miss but here are as many answers as I can.
6 grains of Bullseye
.452 bullets
No idea of actual barrel diameter
Boolets are tumble lubed in a cool whip container with a circular motion. One coat of Lee Alox
I had 30 empty cases but now I have 230 empty cases and have prepped them for reloading tonight
cci Large Pistol Primer
The lead is about 50/50 wheel weight and range lead. No hardness tester so I cannot tell the hardness. I have plenty of range lead and wheel weights in seperate ingots as well.

I wish I could give more info but I think that is all I have to share.

[doug strong]

I am no expert at slugging barrels but I tried it and came up with .445 and .451 but who knows if I actually did it right.

[knifemaker]

.451-.452 is about right for most 45 acp barrels. I would back the bullseye charge down to 5.5 grains and tumble lube the bullets twice and see if that stops the leading. Your powder charge is driving that bullet over 900 fps, 5.5 grains should take it down to around 830 fps.
Based on your infro, I have to agree with the others that there is a good chance your problem is not enough lube coverage. clean the barrel very good for both lead and copper deposits, reduce powder charge, tumble lube twice and see if that helps.

[lonewelder]

Save your ww.I shoot range lead in my pistols just fine.Like everybody said,sounds like you are running out of lube.+1 on the copper.they don't get along.I would't blame the lube so much as the copper.I have pushed rifle boolits to 1900 with alox and bein very happy

[sagacious]

Doug,
Your powder charge appears to be OK. You may wish to load some ammo with 5.5grs Bullseye and see if the leading disappears. Your alloy appears to be appropriate.

Try a second coat of Alox on your bullets. You do not need much lube for a 5" pistol barrel, but your lube quantity may be sufficient.

You did not specify if .452" is the resized or as-cast diam. If you are resizing, you may consider loading as-cast if the rounds will chamber.

If you are using a LEE factory crimp' die, you may wish to try crimping lightly with a standard taper-crimp die.

Best of luck. :drinks:

[doug strong]

Thanks for the help. 452 is as cast.
I guess the simplest thing is to try more lube and give it another whirl.

I'll report back when I know more.

[lonewelder]

Just read your post.Before I posted.Have you mic-ed your boolits.If they are coming out big you might have a harder alloy than you think

[lonewelder]

I like W231 for my 45acp for what it's worth,But I don't powder is your problem

[9.3X62AL]

Doug--

.451" x .445" sounds like a G.I.-spec barrel to me. I haven't seen copper-fouling in any of my 45 ACP barrels, and my usual bit with new 45 ACP barrels has been to run 100-200 jacketed bullets through them prior to firing any lead boolits.

Leading at the muzzle tends to mean insufficient or inadequate lube quantity and/or quality, as others have mentioned above. You don't mention whether you're using Lee Liquid Alox and tumble-lubing and/or a Tumble-Lube boolit design. My 45 ACP cast boolit work (since 1981) has been entirely with "conventional" castings having Lyman-like lube grooves applied via Lyman sizer/lubricators and dies. I size most of these to .452" and have used wheelweight alloy predominantly. .454" sizing was tried in a Glock OEM barrel (.453" x .449"), and both .452" and .454" sizing produced leading-free shooting and very good accuracy--on par with or better than jacketed bullet performance. Use of 92/6/2 alloy has not significantly improved accuracy in any of my pistols, but did improve feeding with RN boolits in an Auto-Ordnance 1911A1 that was a poor-quality example. Leading has never been an issue for me in any 45 ACP pistol or revolver.

I concur that a bit more lube might solve the problem. If it's LLA, a second dip or coating might be all that is needed.

[lonewelder]

I agree.I have never had a problem with leading in a 45acp,1911,1917 sw,or a single action colt.I think there is somthig else going on.A 5' barrel,too hard an aloy or size,or lube.For what it's worth I had a 1911 springfield.It shoot great.I had to tune the extracter,but it shot pretty well

[Cowboy T]

Your BHN is probably going to be about 8 or 9 if it's 50/50 range/WW lead. That's slightly soft for .45 ACP pressures, but it should still be OK.

I use a 200gr LRNFP in a Super Redhawk 454 with a 7.5" barrel (.45 Colt rounds, stock SAAMI pressures). The boolit is straight WW, just slightly harder than "optimal" for my load pressure, but it works well (your alloy would be optimal, actually!). My boolits get two light coats of Liquid Alox. No leading. But then, this gun hasn't seen any jacketed or plated bullets. Probably never will, either, given that cast boolits do a great job.

:lovebooli

[dualsport]

Minor hijack: I have a box of 500 Speer 230 gr. RN swaged bullets that's been sitting around for a while I loaded up 50 over 4 gr. of W231, gonna try them maybe tomorrow. Anybody used these? Any good? I prepped 100 cases to try my new (old) Lyman 452460 mold out, but they won't feed in my gun! Figured I might as well load something. When i let the slide go the 452460s jam up at an angle, the top won't drop into the chamber and the bottom won't lift up to level. They go about halfway in so I can't see what they are hanging up on.

[fredj338]

Your BE load is pushing pretty hard, 17Kcup/900fps or so depending on OAL. IMO, a bit fast/high pressure for light Alox & your alloy. I have never gotten leading at the muzzle w/ any 45acp load, but I do NOT use Alox. I do shoot soft alloys, 25-1 @ 850fps or so w/ no leading issues, but I use a slower powder than BE (lower pressures). I agree, try backing down to 5.5-5.6gr, this should help w/ the alloy portion, maybe dbl. coat your bullets w/ the Alox.

[WHITETAIL]

doug, All good advice here.
Start with a good scrubbing of the barrel.
Then try a 2nd coating of lube.
Back down to 5gr. to 5.5 gr. of bullseye.
If you want you might also try JPW as a lube.:coffee:

[randyrat]

Minor hijack: I have a box of 500 Speer 230 gr. RN swaged bullets that's been sitting around for a while I loaded up 50 over 4 gr. of W231, gonna try them maybe tomorrow. Anybody used these? Any good? I prepped 100 cases to try my new (old) Lyman 452460 mold out, but they won't feed in my gun! Figured I might as well load something. When i let the slide go the 452460s jam up at an angle, the top won't drop into the chamber and the bottom won't lift up to level. They go about halfway in so I can't see what they are hanging up on. Some mags won't feed a semi wadcutters. Change mags and they work. Seen this with a couple different mags. the
feed lips are not long enough.

[chris in va]

My Lyman manual lists 6gr of Bullseye with a 200 SWC as being the max load.

Try using straight WW and back it off to about 5gr. Minimum is listed at 4.9gr and still holds at 840fps.

[Echo]

Originally Posted by dualsport View Post
Minor hijack: I have a box of 500 Speer 230 gr. RN swaged bullets that's been sitting around for a while I loaded up 50 over 4 gr. of W231, gonna try them maybe tomorrow. Anybody used these? Any good? I prepped 100 cases to try my new (old) Lyman 452460 mold out, but they won't feed in my gun! Figured I might as well load something. When i let the slide go the 452460s jam up at an angle, the top won't drop into the chamber and the bottom won't lift up to level. They go about halfway in so I can't see what they are hanging up on.


Some mags won't feed a semi wadcutters. Change mags and they work. Seen this with a couple different mags. the
feed lips are not long enough.

+1. I load the -460 boolit for my .45's, but use parallel-feed mags. No problem.

[Echo]

My Lyman manual lists 6gr of Bullseye with a 200 SWC as being the max load.

Try using straight WW and back it off to about 5gr. Minimum is listed at 4.9gr and still holds at 840fps.

I load 3.6 grs of BE, and it is accurate, and reliably functions both of my .45's, my house gun and my wad gun.

[243winxb]

Load to HOT Alliant Bullseye Maximum load is 4.6gr-200gr speer. Old Lyman is 4.8gr Bullseye-200gr cast. Leading info from Lee.
Cast bullet leading

A clue to what is causing the leading is where the leading first begins to appear. If it appears near the chamber, chances are that bullet diameter or hardness are the cause.

A diameter too small and/or too hard an alloy will allow high pressure gas to leak past the bullet, which erodes the bullet and leaves leading near the chamber.

If the leading first appears on the leading edge of the rifling (if you imagine the bullet being pushed through the barrel, you will note that one edge of the rifling does most of the work of imparting a spin to the bullet. This is the edge you see when you look through the barrel from the breech end) the bullet might be too soft, and/or the velocity too high.

If the leading appears in the second half of the barrel, the bullet is running out of lube. You should see a star shaped pattern of lube accumulate on the muzzle. This is an indication that there is a little excess lube.
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi

[doug strong]

I am going to do some loading right now. I will back the load down to 4 and I re lubed all my boolits last night so they should be dry and ready to use. Thanks.

Randyrat
I was worried that mine might not feed the swc rounds but they went just as easily as the rn jacketed ones. I was very happy about this because seeing the nice round holes in the paper is much easier on my old eyes. I have a couple of more mags in the mail to me and I hope they work out as well. Your suggestion to dualsport has me concerned that they might not. We shall see.

[fredj338]

Load to HOT Alliant Bullseye Maximum load is 4.6gr-200gr speer. Old Lyman is 4.8gr Bullseye-200gr cast. Leading info from Lee. http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi
The data Speer gives is not max because of pressure but for their soft swaged bullets, that is their recommended max. Lyman shows 6gr as max w/ one style 200grLSWC & 5.6gr w/ another. Depending on the OAL used, definitely max loads for sure.

am going to do some loading right now. I will back the load down to 4 and I re lubed all my boolits last night so they should be dry and ready to use. Thanks.
Prety big swing, from max down to starting, hopefully they function, might not load too many. You should be fine around 4.5gr-5gr for most guns for punching paper.

[243winxb]

Some more data http://bullseyepistol.com/reloads.htm
The following represents recipies to duplicate a true .45 caliber hardball load.

The NRA has published some load info that should fill your needs.

American Rifleman June 1993, pgs. 44-45
Loads to simulate Hardball recoil and energy 850 +/- 30 FPS vel

200-220 WC lead (such as Lyman 452460) OAL 1.16"
4.6-5.0 gr BE, Red or Green Dot, 700X
6.0-6.5 gr Unique
5.5-6.0 gr WW231
The above loads can also be used with a 230 gr FMJ bullet to get 850 FPS
+/- 30 with overall length of 1.25"

American Rifleman January 1987, pg. 66
Loads to Duplicate Military Ball Ammo

230 gr FMJ
4.6 gr BE
5.6 gr WW231
6.5 gr Unique

[Char-Gar]

BS that powder charge is OK... 6/BE is way to hot! Stop at 5. For years millions of rounds of 230 FMJ were loaded for the military on top of 4.8/BE

I have not check a loading book, but if any of them say 6/BE is just dandy, they lie.

[doug strong]

Back form the range. No leading to speak of and just as accurate. I Think for the next batch I will set up incremental loads of 4.0, 4.2, 4.4, 4.6, 4.8 and 5.0 and see what it likes. If I wind up liking something at one of ends I will work up or down in another batch.

This is fun!

[sniper7369]

This is fun!

+1 on that. For me working up loads, experimenting with different boolits and lubes, etc.. is as much fun as shooting. Glad you got your problem ironed out.

[sagacious]

Lyman #47 lists a range of 4.9-6.2grs Bullseye with the 200gr lead SWC. Pressure is listed at 12,900 to 17,600cup.

Lyman #48 lists a range of 4.9-6.0grs Bullseye with the 200gr lead SWC. Pressure is listed at 12,900 to 17,000cup. The 6.0gr load of Bullseye is listed as the potentially most accurate load.

Hornady #5 lists a range of 4.6-6.3grs Bullseye with the 200gr lead SWC.

These loadings are quite obviously in close agreement, and quite safe.

Some loading handbooks list 'target' loads at approx 800-850fps for the 45ACP lead SWC bullets, as that is the main use of SWC bullets in that caliber. Those recipes are intended as a guide to give good performance when shooting paper.

Some loadbooks, such as the Speer manual, appear to only provide the 'target-level' data for the 200gr lead SWC. Hornady recommends a max velocity of 800fps for target applications with the 45ACP, but lists a full range of data with the 200gr lead SWC.

The published 'target' loadings do not in any way invalidate the faster published data.

Those seeking loading recipe confirmation are best served by checking their handy published loading handbook. The safest and wisest practice is to always trust published information before unverified arm-chair information. Anecdotal load recipes offered over the net should be treated with extreme circumspection, if not ignored totally.

Good luck. :drinks:

[sniper7369]

Lyman #47 lists a range of 4.9-6.2grs Bullseye with the 200gr lead SWC. Pressure is listed at 12,900 to 17,600cup.

Lyman #48 lists a range of 4.9-6.0grs Bullseye with the 200gr lead SWC. Pressure is listed at 12,900 to 17,000cup. The 6.0gr load of Bullseye is listed as the potentially most accurate load.

Hornady #5 lists a range of 4.6-6.3grs Bullseye with the 200gr lead SWC.

These loadings are quite obviously in close agreement, and quite safe.

Some loading handbooks list 'target' loads at approx 800-850fps for the 45ACP lead SWC bullets, as that is the main use of SWC bullets in that caliber. Those recipes are intended as a guide to give good performance when shooting paper.

Some loadbooks, such as the Speer manual, appear to only provide the 'target-level' data for the 200gr lead SWC. Hornady recommends a max velocity of 800fps for target applications with the 45ACP, but lists a full range of data with the 200gr lead SWC.

The published 'target' loadings do not in any way invalidate the faster published data.

Those seeking loading recipe confirmation are best served by checking their handy published loading handbook. The safest and wisest practice is to always trust published information before unverified arm-chair information. Anecdotal load recipes offered over the net should be treated with extreme circumspection, if not ignored totally.

Good luck. :drinks:

Ya know, I just checked my 1911 range book (been a while since I loaded any .45 SWC) and 6.0gr of Bullseye with 200gr LSWC and Win LP was a tack driver load. Recoil was fairly snappy, minimal leading with Lyman OM sized at .452. stopped loading the 200 LSWC due to feeding issues in my pistol.
Always handy to keep a log book for every gun to keep track of this stuff. ;-)

[sagacious]

Ya know, I just checked my 1911 range book (been a while since I loaded any .45 SWC) and 6.0gr of Bullseye with 200gr LSWC and Win LP was a tack driver load. Recoil was fairly snappy, minimal leading with Lyman OM sized at .452. stopped loading the 200 LSWC due to feeding issues in my pistol.
Always handy to keep a log book for every gun to keep track of this stuff. ;-)

My range binder shows the same with that exact recipe. I no longer commonly load Bullseye for the 45ACP, but I do still shoot a lot of the 200gr SWC's. I load that bullet now with 6.0grs WW231, which is a fair margin below max, and gives 912fps out of my favorite Springfield 1911. No leading at all, and a great recipe for target use.

You're right, sure is nice to be able to re-check and review this stuff.

Good shooting! :drinks:

[243winxb]

Looks like my old data is a little out of date. But i have always started low on the powder charge and worked up for safety. My log shows my personal max. of 5.2 Bullseye/200gr cast(206gr really.) If your going to be working in the 21,000 psi +P range, i would think good lube and a harder alloy is needed to stop the leading at the muzzle end. Adding 2% tin might be a big help also. I have heard that the new Lyman cast bullet book lists cast bullets using a different alloy then #2, a much harder linotype or something?.:confused: To run at maximum pressures, you will have to match the alloy to the pressure as in Lee's chart. And Lube better, i would guess? :coffee:http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/LeeChart.jpg http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_Alloy_20090610_1.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/Alloy_20090610_1.jpg) I have not tested hardness of alloy in 40+ years, other than a thumb nail, using range scrap. If the boolits diameter needed to be larger, i added linotype.

[MtGun44]

I think you will find the accy best down around your 4.0 (new) starting point but it should
stay pretty accurate up to about 4.8 gr, then start tailing off moderately. My most accurate
.45 ACP load is around 3.5-3.8 of Titegroup (which is very close to Bullseye in performance
on a per grain basis in this caliber) under a .452 diam 452460 which is a slightly short nosed
200 SWC. If it will feed in your gun, the good old 452460 is a really great design.

My normal .45 ACP load (WELL into 6 digits loaded since about 1980) uses 4.8 BE, 5.9 W231 or
now 4.8 Titegroup under a commercial H&G68 bb clone. Very slight leading sometimes due
to too hard commercial boolits, crappy crayola lube and .451 diameter the commercial guys
usually supply being a touch too small. I use my real H&G 68 pb mold, size to .452 from
ww or softer, loaded over 4.8 TG when I want a really nice load and zero leading. I shoot too
many in IPSC to cast my own for situations where I may take 12 shots in 6-7 seconds. Gilt
edge accy is not required here! The good news is that many commercial casters are offering
.452 boolits nowdays, unheard of 20+ yrs ago.

Good luck - I find that liquid alox is pretty marginal on lube capacity. Once you are sick of
messing with that 'mule snot', get a lubrisizer and you'll totally stop all your leading with a
good conventional lube design like H&G 68, Lym 452460 (match) or the every reliable Lym
452374.

[35remington]

What I find interesting is the intolerance of the HG 68 design with the single very large lube groove to a "good" lube. Using something soft, and blessed by the "serious" rifle accuracy adherents as being perfect means accuracy goes completely out the window at 45 ACP speeds in my 1911's. Yes, the lube is soft enough to get flung against the barrel on its trip downrange, but it often doesn't work as well as a lube that allows a slight to moderate amount of leading.

There's no leading, but accuracy is poor. The cause is the same as found in 38 Special wadcutter loads.......the cartridge/bullet combo doesn't really need all that good of a lube, nor all that much of it.

Using the LLA, which so many like to despise, there is some leading because this non tumble lube bullet doesn't hold all that much lube, but accuracy is much better.

What moderately low velocity pistols need is a "bad" lube. Which also means that for many uses, which always include the need for accuracy in my opinion, LLA is entirely adequate and is all the "bad" lube a fellow needs.

Or, if you have a lubrisizer, use a hard lube. Designs with a much smaller single lube groove like the RCBS HG 68 clone don't suffer from the same problem. Some HG 68 clones could benefit from a much smaller lube groove, even with "poor" lubes.

Many users of this bullet type get criticized for using a hard, non sticky lube (see the commonly used hard commercial bullets with a hard lube) that's "inferior" to the soft types but if accuracy is good and leading is minimal who can honestly say that what they are using is wrong?

If that is the case then what they are using is just right.

[dualsport]

I'm lubing my 452460s with LLA/JPW/MS mix, then thru the Lee push thru .452, and then lube again. The second time around they build up a good layer of lube and fills the grooves up a bit. When I get a sizer die for the .452 I'll try that too and compare results.

[AriM]

6 grains of bullseye is on the hot side. shouldn't be a huge problem (i do see a 6 grain load in one of my books). there is one thing to check though. how deep are you seating the boolit? if you are pushing the boolit too deep and crimping a bit to excessive (should only be straightening out the flare) and loading 6 grains of bullseye, you might be approaching an excessive pressure for your alloy. What is your OAL and what boolit design are you casting? 200gn swc (I know that you said lee). is it the TL lee or the h&g #68 clone? I have noticed that the tl likes to seat quite low. I believe that it's deep seating, along with the 6 grain charge, could lead to excessive pressure. Maybe enough to cause partial failure of the boolit and some leading.

the only thing that would lead me to believe that this is not the case.....would be the fact that you said the leading is close to the muzzle.....that would indicate some other things....

i have found that with the Lee-200-swc-tl, a reduced charge is best....I think the point where I saw diminishing results, was 5.5 grains. If I recall correctly, I had the best luck with 4.7 grains. The OAL was somewhere around 1.196 if I am recalling correctly. I can find the load data if you are interested. Please don't follow my suggestions blindly. I would start by checking that OAL and reducing the charge. If you find accuracy falling off at a lower charge, something else is wrong.

hope it helps....I have a lot of rounds down range with that boolit and hope you find a good combination (as I have)

P.S. really be careful at 6 grains...i can't say that enough. it's really hot. and with the TL boolit you are seating pretty deep. the TL boolit is designed for lighter "target" loads.

[doug strong]

Spent Sunday at the range and I ran about 100 rounds through the pistol with incremental loads of 4.0, 4.2, 4.4, 4.6, 4.8 and 5.0.

The 4.0 shot best. Interestingly the group fell apart at about 4.6 but came back at 5.0. Nevertheless, 4.0 was still the best of the bunch. I may play with some lighter loads since my lightest load shot best. Perhaps I'll try a few out ranging from 3.4 up to 4.0 but I am satisfied with my 4.0 load for now.

Even better than the accuracy was the complete and total lack of leading in the barrel. Clean as a whistle after 100 rounds.

Thanks for all the help guys!

[gray wolf]

Wow it sure is hard to add anything to this thread. My expert casting brothers have covered a lot.
But since I am here I may also add that for making holes in paper I think you are way over powdered. My best load for MY pistol is 4.3 B/E and 4.7 tite group. With that I should be around 830/850 FPS, plenty of speed for a paper target, tin can, old stick, and a rock or two. #68 Hensly 200 grain LWC. Same load for my Lyman 230 LRN. My next venture is going to be
Long shot powder ( Hodgon ) better Vel. and a lot less pressure.

Sam

[MtGun44]

As predicted, your best accy was at the 4.0 level. Recommend you try 3.5 to 3.8 range
also, some guns do their best work there, but it is getting low enough to cause problems
with too low power to operate the action properly in some guns.

If you desire a 'full power' or IPSC 'major caliber' load, 4.8 to 5.0 is recommended as
powerful but relatively accurate, but rarely as accurate as the 3.5 to 4.0 range.

Well done, sir. You are becoming an expert on that particular gun with that particular
boolit. Practice makes perfect, and is fun.