Winchester model 71

[dragonrider]

A coworker asked me if I knew anything about Winchester 71's, I had to say no because I don't. Never gave much thought to them, so I did some quick googleing and found that (I think) they were made only in 348 Winchester caliber. Is that true???? I found a history that states they were designed to replace the 1884 and the 1886, or to incorporate the best of those two rifles into one. My search also found that they are rather expensive these days although the examples I found on the net were all prime pieces of collector interest. Perhaps one could be found in a somewhat less than pristeen condition for considerably less????

[jh45gun]

Yep they were only made in 348 and they were an upgraded model 86. Browning in 1987 made a limited edition run of new 71's in Japan so some of the threaded parts do not interchange with the originals, but still would make a good shooter.

[BruceB]

A wee bit more research will probably disclose that a relative few M71 rifles were made in .33 Winchester.

For all practical purposes, the M71 is a one-cartridge rifle, but there WERE a few in that other chambering.

"Never say never".

[jh45gun]

Article From Jim Taylor: The Model 71 Winchester was the culmination of the large-frame leverguns produced by the famed old company. Introduced in 1936 it was an upgrade of the famous Model 1886. Designed to make manufacturing a bit easier with improvements to handle the new cartridge that was introduced with it, this was the last of the big-frame leverguns made by Winchester.

The Model 1886 was designed during the black powder era for large black powder cartridges. Chambered for a variety of calibers including the .45-70, the Model 1886, was adapted to a new smokeless powder medium bore cartridge called the .33 WCF in 1902. The .33 Winchester was intended for hunting large North American game and used .338" diameter bullets, the same size used in today's .338 Magnums. However, by the 1930's the .33 WCF was looking a bit underpowered. That and the increased costs for the production of the 1886 (along with the slowdown of the economy) had Winchester looking around at ways to cut costs in the production of the big leveraction.

THE RIFLE

A redesign of many of the internal parts along with the introduction of a new caliber was Winchester's plan to get the costs down and to market the package. The redesigned '86 was renamed the Model 71 and the rest, as they say, is history. The rifle was produced in only one caliber .. the .348 WCF .. and it is the only factory rifle ever chambered for this round.

(see the exploded views of the Model 71 and Model 1886 for comparison ... see if you can spot the changes made)

It was introduced in two different models, the Standard and the Deluxe versions and was produced in 2 barrel lengths, 20" and 24" (carbine & rifle). Both models used a pistol-grip stock. The Deluxe version had checkering on the forend and stock, along with snap-on sling swivels, pistol-grip cap and a really cool bolt mounted aperture sight.



By the mid-1950's with costs again rising, the Model 71 was discontinued. Because all parts were totally machined from steel (vs. cast as with most newer firearms) the rifle was pretty expensive to produce. Too expensive to build and still make a profit. In 1956 Winchester stopped it's production and the last big levergun was no more. About 47,000 of the Model 71's were made during it's 20 year history.

In 1987 Browning produced a modern version of the Model 71 that was made in Japan. These have different thread sizes in places, most notably the barrels, and many parts will not interchange with the originals. The Browning version was a limited production model only.

[jh45gun]

A wee bit more research will probably disclose that a relative few M71 rifles were made in .33 Winchester.

For all practical purposes, the M71 is a one-cartridge rifle, but there WERE a few in that other chambering.

"Never say never".


Anything I ever read said the 348 and that is it. If you have proof otherwise please post it.

[runfiverun]

i recall hearing of the 33 win made also.
i always compared my 348 to a 200 gr 30-06 in a really heavy [cool] levergun.

[405]

As far as finding a good shooter for cheaper than the prime collectors? Yes, just as with any other collector type rifle. All had pistol grip buttstocks. All had a fairly standardized broadened forearm. The design is basically a Win 1886 action with a couple of extremely small modifications- for all practical purposes the same action. About 47000 Mod 71s were made, so are considered uncommon compared to other Win models.

Within the collecting universe, two basic age types will show. The earlier is called the long tang model and is generally considered the pre-war (WWII) type. The other is the short tang or post-war. The pre-war type is the more valuable to collectors. Also, only two grades were made throughout production--- the deluxe and standard grades. Within the deluxe grade a carbine (20" short rifle) was offered. Naturally, the deluxe will be more valuable than the standard and the carbine version of the deluxe will add additional premium.

[jh45gun]

i recall hearing of the 33 win made also.
i always compared my 348 to a 200 gr 30-06 in a really heavy [cool] levergun.

Only ones I ever heard of was 348 so like I said if there is proof out there I would like to see it as that would be interesting as most feel it was only chambered in the 348.

[dragonrider]

Thanks guys , I will have to look around for one to see it in the flesh so to speak.

[BruceB]

The Winchester Sales Manual for 1938 says; "The gun chambered to handle .33 caliber can also be furnished on special order."

This comes from a Winchester collector of some note, over on the Accurate Reloading forum.

HE OWNED a '71 in .33 Winchester a few years back.

I didn't say it was a regular production item, because it was not. I DID say "a relative few were made." That is true, and NOT all Model 71s that left the factory were chambered for the .348.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

It has been well described so far, but it also must be pointed out that the 71 is a very favorite rifle up in Alaska. Many of them were rebored for several wildcats based on the 348 case, with the intent to successfully handle big bears/the biggest bears The most well known of these conversions is probably the 450 Alaskan and there is also a 50 Alaskan which as you would imagine hits hard at both ends. As if that might not be enough there was also a 450-348 which pushed a 350 grain bullet at 2500 fps and a 400 grain at 2300fps...pretty close to specs for a 458 Win Mag-out of a lever gun!!!; It was noted for ripping the tubular mag clean off the rifle unless a special brace was rigged up to hold the mag in place. What fun! But nothing in the woods to be afraid of with one of those. LLS

[bigbear]

If you have a chance to buy one, do it. You will not regret it.The Browning 71s are great also. So buy one of each:drinks:

[shotman]

I would say a 33win would be in the $10,000 + area the reg 71 will get $1500 + here is mine and I would not think of selling it. There is nothing cheap, the boolit molds are rare and costly the sling swivles are VERY expensive. but it is a great cast shooter. and not near as bad on the shoulder.
The gun in pic is a 1948 there was 11 loaded shells with it in a win box 200gr silver tip. I would say that 9 deer lost to it
rick

[Bullshop]

While the iron is hot I might mention that The Bullshop has for sale a Mod 71 deluxe with bolt peep sight. This rifle has a 20" barrel with full magazine. It has been re barreled to 450x348 Ackley.
We had another on a Browning in 450 Alaskan but it sold last month.
Also while the iron is hot we have a good selection of boolit designs for the 348.
I have fired a good number of each from both Winchester and Browning rifles and have a good understanding of what to expect from these rifles. We even have the old Lyman 180gn boolit for it.
When the 348 came out they were competing for 30/06 territory so they came out with a 180gn load that produced the same velocity as the 30/06 with the same weight bullet.
In my opinion it never shot as good as the heavier bullets or boolits.
Anyway we gotum if anyone would like to have a go at it.
BIC/BS

[missionary5155]

Good morning
A model 71 rescently sold in the 750 area on Gunbroker. It had a rubber recoil pad added and the collectors would not bid on it.
They are intreaging but I think I will stick with the 38çs and larger... there still may be a rouge mastadon roaming the North Fork river bottoms in east central Illinois.

[BarryinIN]

I have had a Browning 71 with 20" barrel for a little over a year now. It's a great rifle, that operates smoothly, handles well, and shoots great with jacketed or cast (I have one mould for it- a Rapine 350235GC).

I got mine off Gunbroker for a little less than the going rate. It wasn't moving because it had the 20" barrel which doesn't seem to sell as well as the 24". I never understood the desire for the longer barrel on this rifle, but it helped me.

I got some Gator checks for testing and those on the Rapine bullet made back to back 1/2" groups at 50 yards, which is pretty much my limit with iron sights.

I have always liked the looks of the 71s, and don't think there is a more "outdoorsy" rifle around. The rifle just looks "serious".
I think the cartridge looks serious too. It may not have the stylish short, fat benchrest look, but it's shape and big rim makes it look like it would feed and extract no matter what. Just what you'd want with this type of rifle.

As impressed as I might be with the rifle and cartridge, I am not sure what it will do that a Marlin 45-70 won't do and more. Or an 1886 Lightweight or Extra Light.
But I like it anyway.

[pmeisel]

I love the looks of this gun so I just checked Gunbroker, for giggles. They had 7 Browning 71s for sale, 3 high grade collectors stuff, 4 regular shooters....

I almost bought one 20 years ago and regret passing on the opportunity.

[jh45gun]

You would think that if some one writes an article they would have known that there was a few in 33. He stated in no uncertain terms it was a one caliber gun (Not talking about wildcats here) Guess it was some false info but I bet there were darn few 33's as I have seen more than a few model 71's and have only seen the 348 versions.

[Doc Highwall]

I think I would believe that their is some in other then 348 Win. A couple of years ago at a gun show in West Springfield MA. at a Winchester collectors table he had a Winchester Model 21 in 45-70 and at the show last December they had some Model 70's in single shot configuration with a small opening like a Savage Model 12. I have a Browning 1885 Low Wall in .260 Remington that was a non catalog item so yes, they do make some off beat things. The hard part is showing paperwork that it left the factory that way. Years ago when I was not so smart or have as much money I was looking for a left handed 22 rf for match shooting, and at the show a gentleman had a Winchester Model 52C converted to left hand by a person who worked for Winchester and it was beautiful, needless to say I still lament not buying it. There is another thread here about stupid and I should have mentioned that there.

[405]

A couple of boxes of originals for the 71. The Model 71 and Silvertip Ammo fit perfectly into the Winchester theme of powerful lever gun for North American Big Game.

[Bullshop]

Perhaps yes the 348 is an impressive looking cartridge but its looks are out of proportion to its performance. Fact of the matter is the 358 Win way out performs it.
If you compare the Browning BLR in 358 to the Mod 71 in 348 what you get is a way bigger heavier gun in the 71 with a less powerful cartridge in 35 caliber.
I call the 348 a 35 caliber cartridge because it has always worked best for me with .351" diameter boolits.
If you hunt on your feet the BLR becomes very attractive too.
BIC/BS

[Wayne R. Scott]

Only ones I ever heard of was 348 so like I said if there is proof out there I would like to see it as that would be interesting as most feel it was only chambered in the 348.

Page 319 from the Winchester Book by George Madis, "Production commenced in the later part of 1935 with serial number one. No takedown models or specials such as longer barrels were available. Caliber 348 Winchester, which had been developed for this model, was the only cartridge which the 71 was chambered except for experimental models."

I have talked with a couple of Winchester gurus and they believe that the experimental chamberings were .33 Winchester and the number of them produced is in the low teens (as in less than 20 total). If you find a couple of 71's in .33 Winchester at a garage sale you will be well on your way to a retirement fund.

Wayne

[jh45gun]

So for all intents and purposes it was a ONE caliber gun. Thanks for the clarification.

[BruceB]

Gents;

My Winchester collector I cited earlier said that Madis was WRONG, and he knew it because he OWNED an original, all-factory M71 in .33 Winchester.

I'd say that a steel-and-wood testimony carries more weight than a book, penned some decades after the fact. I'd repeat his quote from the 1938 Sales Manual, but it's just a few posts back.

Actually, it WAS essentially a one-caliber rifle...but there were exceptions. In that long-ago time, factories would build danged near anything on special order, and Winchester was front-and-center in that sort of service. I've seen and handled a Model 94 with a thirty-inch barrel. Try finding THAT in a catalog!

[jh45gun]

OK special order is fine but for all intents and purposes it still was a one caliber gun as it was cataloged as a 348 chambered gun. Just because your collector friend has one does not mean there were many of them chambered for other calibers like the 33. I suspect the number was very low as Wayne suggested.

[451whitworth]

Perhaps yes the 348 is an impressive looking cartridge but its looks are out of proportion to its performance. Fact of the matter is the 358 Win way out performs it.
If you compare the Browning BLR in 358 to the Mod 71 in 348 what you get is a way bigger heavier gun in the 71 with a less powerful cartridge in 35 caliber.
I call the 348 a 35 caliber cartridge because it has always worked best for me with .351" diameter boolits.
If you hunt on your feet the BLR becomes very attractive too.
BIC/BS

well i'm not saying what Bullshop says isn't true about cartridge performance. but this i will say, i think the BLR is the most hideous looking lever gun made. also, i have three 71's.

[Wayne R. Scott]

Gents;

My Winchester collector I cited earlier said that Madis was WRONG, and he knew it because he OWNED an original, all-factory M71 in .33 Winchester.

I'd say that a steel-and-wood testimony carries more weight than a book, penned some decades after the fact. I'd repeat his quote from the 1938 Sales Manual, but it's just a few posts back.



I don't see how Maddis saying that Winchester chambered a few Model 71's in calibers other than .348 Winchester is WRONG. I think that the word "experimental" chamberings may be equal to "special order" chamberings. I think this just supports your claim that there are .33 Winchesters in existence, not a lot but even one is more than none.

As to Model 1894's having long barrels, from 1894 to 1908 barrels of up to 36" were offered in calibers .32-40 and .38-55. In 1918 and 1919 Winchester tried to interest the U.S. government in a 30" barrel musket with sling swivels and an attachment for a saber bayonet. Who knows how many people "special ordered a long barrel on their 94?

When it comes to Winchesters I think it is hard say anything is absolute.

Have a nice day.

Wayne

[Bullshop]

451Whitworth
I agree, UGLY but light. I dont have a BLR either I was just making a point. I do have a 71, and an 86.
BIC/BS

[pmeisel]

It's all taste. I had a BLR, loved it, and am sorry I sold it.

[chuckbuster]

I have a 71/.348 that wonderful wifey bougt as an anniversary present several years ago. Planning to develope boolit loads with it this summer. All the lever guns are a blast to shoot.
Kevin

[greatnorth]

"When it comes to Winchesters I think it is hard say anything is absolute."

Now ain't that the truth. I've got a Model 71 sitting in the safe that belonged to a very good old friend that passed away about eleven years ago. He didn't buy it new but pretty close to it. The serial number says it was made in 1954 and it has the twenty inch tube. All the books I can find say that this barrel was discontinued in 1947. Also, this one is not the deluxe model as it has no checkering or the factory sling swivels. I am positive as can be that he had no work done to it as he was a firm believer that they were tools and were used as such. Thank God this 71 wasn't a shovel or it would have dug many a hole between Africa and Alaska! Wish I knew how to go about getting the letter from Winchester to find out how this combination came about. I tried to contact the Cody museum with not much luck. If these 71's could talk there'd be some tall, tall tales floating around out there! Greg

[hansumtoad]

OK.... have a Model 71. Now have a Lyman 350319, 350447, and a 350482. SO where do I get a .349 and a .350 size die?

[RobS]

OK.... have a Model 71. Now have a Lyman 350319, 350447, and a 350482. SO where do I get a .349 and a .350 size die?

If you are looking for a Lyman or RCBS die then buckshot here on the forum makes these style of lube/size dies. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=67

If you are looking for a Magma Star die then lathesmith can help you out there too. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?u=2206

[muskeg13]

I got my .350 Lyman/RCBS die from Buffalo Arms. They stock them.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,6299.html

[Eutectic]

Give me a Winchester Model 1886 in .50-100-450 (faster twist .50-110) any day!
I saw and handled one once... The ONLY 86 I ever saw in that chambering! A beautiful gun with fading case colors it only fault! It kind of 'stuck' to your hands and had to be pried out (just kiddin'). Mr. Elmer Keith himself had the same problem only a few years prior to my hands on it... I think Elmer's droll might have still been on the great wood.
Alas... neither Elmer or I would 'spring' for what the .50-100 was worth.. Now today thinking back? I wish I had sold my truck and bought it!

Winchester was pretty accommodating pre-war (that's WW2 for you kids) I know the '86 left us with the depression hitting being made in .33WCF only. But a .45-70 could be special ordered; maybe other calibers Winchester still had barrels for.

The 86 leaving and the 71 coming didn't span much time.... so a .33WCF option might have been available and probably was.........

A model 71 with a straight stock in .50 Alaskan might be something I'd consider; but I can still close my eyes and see that .50-100-450...

Eutectic

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I remember when the Winchester 71 was discintinued . I think it was 1958, the price at that time was $87.oo. I didn't want one then and I don't want one now. At a local rifle range swap meet recently a man had two cans of gas checks for the .348. He was asking 5.00 per thou and they didn't sell. Very limited market.

[bigbear]

I am glad no one wants a Winchester 71, that leaves more for me:cool:
I was out at the range today shooting some Hornady 200gr bullets with mine, boy that is one fun rifle to shoot and it puts black bear down , right now.Do you know where I can find jars of 348 gas checks for $5 a pop, I'd love a bargain like that.

[9.3X62AL]

No experience with the M-71 and 348, did have a 1886 in 33 WCF for a while. Some of my first effective rifle loads using cast boolits came from that rifle, a limited-production RCBS 338-200-FN shooting quite well to 1800 FPS in the takedown Featherweight half-magazine example I had.

I got to talking with a USBP supervisor one very early morning at the Temecula BP office, and he was quite a collector of 86s, as it turned out. I mentioned having the example above, and he was horrified that I shot the rifle at all. About this same time, Hornady stopped making their 33 caliber 200 grain flatnose J-words, and Lyman was threatening the stop production of 33 caliber gas checks. The USBP guy called 3-4 times a year asking about the 86, and made a pretty generous offer that prompted me to send it his way. Nice enough rifle, but I can't say I miss it terribly. Given the components situation these days, a 45-70 in a replica or original 86 or a Marlin 95 makes a lot more sense. Both the 33 WCF and 348 are largely moribund, unless you are willing to swage your own J-words or press out your own gas checks.

My 2 cents, only. Free commentary, and perhaps worth it, too. :)

[John Taylor]

I picked up a 71 several years back in a trade. It has a recoil pad added and some nut had it chambered to 348 AI. No collector value so it is on it's way to becoming a 50-110 with crescent butt plate, an 1886 lookalike with a 30" octagon barrel. Still need to gather a few parts but it should be a neat rifle when it's done.

[9.3X62AL]

50-110 and a crescent buttplate should be *invigorating* with full-potential loadings. Sounds like quite a rifle!

[451whitworth]

a friend of a friend was needing to scape up some cash and wanted to sell his M71 Browning last week. i have three of them already so i really wasn't interested but the gun owner brought the rifle by the shop anyway. well now i have four. it was cheap and in excellent condition with a Williams Foolproof already on it. yesterday i went to the farm to shoot it with some of my cast reloads for my previous three M71's. it sprayed bullets all over the place. i was surprised as my others are so accurate. i usually shoot a 250gr. LBT LCFN at .350" at anywhere from 2150-2200 fps. when i got home i did some investigating and found that the rifle will chamber a .352" bullet. so i made a new expander plug for my RCBS neck expander die and a new .352" sizing die on the lathe. then i fired up the furnace and put a piece of tin foil between the mould blocks (not the including the cavities) and out popped .3525" bullets. i went shooting again this morning before work and it shot beautifully. it never fails to amaze me how important bullet fit is in this equation.

[John Taylor]

50-110 and a crescent buttplate should be *invigorating* with full-potential loadings. Sounds like quite a rifle!

The 30" barrel will tame it a bit but it still ought to kick good. It's the only way I have to get an "86" with the long barrel in this caliber. An original would cost more than I can come up with.

[Eutectic]

The 30" barrel will tame it a bit but it still ought to kick good. It's the only way I have to get an "86" with the long barrel in this caliber. An original would cost more than I can come up with.

John,

That 30" barrel with a full length magazine would have an "86" look written all over it! I hope you 'speed' the twist up from Winchester's original for the .50-110... It was one turn in several feet!

Eutectic

[John Taylor]

John,

That 30" barrel with a full length magazine would have an "86" look written all over it! I hope you 'speed' the twist up from Winchester's original for the .50-110... It was one turn in several feet!

Eutectic

I have worked over a lot of the old barrels in 50-110. Book says the twist is 1 in 56". I had one come in with 1 in 60" and another with 1 in 48" Seems the older ones were a slow twist and then they went faster to get it to stabilize. Winchester did that a lot. The 50-100-450 started with a 1 in 48" twist and ended up somewhere around 1 in 36". All the early calibers in the 95 were slow and then ended up at 1 in 11" for all calibers, from a book I read somewhere. It did not take a lot of twist to stabilize the 300 grain bullet in the 50-110. I keep having guys ask about using heavy bullets in a 50-110 and I tell them it isn't a 50-110 if they are shooting heavy bullets. Same brass is used for the 50-105, 50-100 and 50-90, bullet weight limits the amount of powder.
I will most likely go with a 1 in 28" twist.