How it was in 1891

[KCSO]

I recently picked up an Argentine Mauser carbine (Lowe) in about 99% condition. If the crest had not been ground off the rifle would be in perfect shape. Since this is the best one I have ever run across i thought some might be iterested in just how they came from the factory in the old days.

The rifle must not have been used as the trigger still shows 100% of its original fire blued surface. In addition the screws, follower and springs are fire blued and the action is all rust blued to an almost black. Each component has a whole or partial serial number and the wood is serial numbered to match. The butt plate and the bolt are finished bright. I have always wondered why the butt plates were so rusty on most of these and now I know. The bore is mirror bright, but runs a full 313. The wood is mildly figured european walnut finished with an oil finish with the grain well filled. wood to metal fit is better than what you see on 90% of today's guns. The only real problem wiht the gun is that the previous owner cut the handgard off. I have the wood, but it will need to be re wired into place. The gun was purchased in the 1950's for $12.00. According to the Alpha Catalog of 1911 this gun sold for about $24 American dollars when it was in production. That sounds cheap to us, but in 1911 that would have been a months wages for most folks. In today's money this would be say a $1200 gun, and it's workmanship is the equal of any Kimber or Dakota.

By 1920's this guns like these were sold by Sears as German Hunting Rifles and still brought $12.00 or so, a healthy sum. Some folks think I am crazy to buy these old militay rifles when a modern plastic stocked slapped together Stavage or Remchester will mount a scope and shoot better, but just to look at the fine polish and carefull fitting that went into these old guns is a joy in itself.

My thanks to Frank for making this possible, if this one doesn't shoot as good as the one I sold you I will shure be sorry.

[Frank46]

KCSO, now don't get mad at me iffen it don't shoot. I have two of them now and am trying to locate a spare lyman 57 so I do not have to rob the one off my 1903A3. Rust blue and cut rifling and no mystery metal. Don't think they had broached, or button rifling back in those days. Have fun with your new toy. Frank

[straightshooter1]

I sold my carbine to my buddy and kept the long rifle. I purchased the rifle from a local gunshop, complete with the Montgomery Wards hang tag for $100 about 5 years ago and it has been the best shooter for cast bullets of any rifle I have ever had. Near mint condition, too.

When I was a kid in the late 50s these were $19.95 from Ye Olde Hunter's Lodge and I couldn't scrape the $ together. (1894 Swedes were $35, also).

With IMR 4198 and 190 grain .312 boolits, this rifle is a tack driver. The carbine shot almost as well. I made brass from GI 30'06 till Graf's came out with their Argentine brass as such good prices.

These Argentines are second to none, IMO, for cast boolits. Prices are still reasonable, running less than $300 usually (and often consderably less).

BTW, I believe that the Argentine Gov't required the crests to be ground before they were sold in the old days. I notice newer imports now have the crest intact, but the older imports don't.


Bob

[StarMetal]

KSCO,

I got one like yours except mine still has the crest. Mine also has the bayonet lugs as it is the Engineer's carbine. My bore too is also the full .313.

Joe

[NVcurmudgeon]

Had my newly aquired, as issued, 1891 29" rifle at the range yesterday. It is as KCSO described his. With a load of 16.0 gr. Alliant 2400 and Lyman 314299 ten shots grouped 1.68" at 50 yd. Moving to 100 yd. I wasted the first shot learning how to hold, then put the last nine into 2.19". Who needs to improve the sights? The issue sights work just fine, even for us geezers!

KCSO, the wire holding my forearm on is small diameter copper, thoughtful of the good folks at Ludwig Loewe to make it rustproof. Probably something you can get at Ace Hardware.

[StarMetal]

Most hardware stores sell little rolls of copper wire for craft work or picture hanging in different diameters. This would be good for a rustproof wire. On the small pocket migwelders I find that average wire size is about also and the stuff is really strong if you want to wire the forearm piece tight to the barrel.

Joe

[KCSO]

I thought it was brass wire, I will have to check. I have brass wire that I use for other projects and i was going to use some of that.

[Buckshot]

................Sounds like a very nice carbine. I too have one, but mine is an engineer's type. While it's all matching is has a large arsenal repair to the buttstock by the toe. I guess they were driving stakes with it? :-) The blue is also pretty worn.

I have 2 M91 infantry rifles and while one is very nice, the other is in the same condition as your carbine. A scrubbed crest but otherwise like brand new. Even the cleaning rod is correctly serialed to the rifle. I gave a guy $125 for it maybe 5 years ago.

The 1891 Argentines are probably my favorite military rifle. While some may not like the extended magazine (don't all modern military rifles have them :-)) I think it adds to the looks. It's a slim rifle with a very slick operatng bolt.

http://www.fototime.com/D1C0D4FE8A65D60/standard.jpg

The above is the first 1891 I'd gotten back in the early 90's. It has a brass plate you can see there on the butt, with the name "R. Robertson" stamped on it. This is just the way it came from Century Int'l, and the plate was not new. It had been on the rifle for quite some time. I'd questioned several milsurp sites years ago about what might be up with the plate and got several guesses, but no definative answer. Nor did anyone ever say they'd gotten one like it also.

Oddly enough, both my M91 Infantrys have good tight barrels with bores no larger then .301" and grooves running .312" and .310". The carbines' is clean but somewhat worn and needs a .314" boolit.

They truely are magnificent rifles to have been a military contract item. Actually you can say that about most pre-WW1 military production rifles, regardless of the manufacturer.

...............Buckshot

[straightshooter1]

Buckshot-pretty neat rifle with that brass tag. Since you got it from Centuy, I am assuming it is a "recent import" with the crest. ?? I googled the name and rifle in several ways (I'm sure you did, too) and found nothing except there were several Argentines with British names/ancestry who fought in the Faulklands. One interesting story along those lines was from an Argentine named Savage.

While I doubt anyone used a Model 1891 in that campaign, I suppose one likely scenario is that there was/is a family named Robertson in Argentina and that one of them with the first name beginning with "R" was honored (or honored himself) by tagging the rifle with his name for some reason. I'll bet there are other scenarios equally likely as well but I suppose we will never know.

I am so impressed with how well mine shoots-better than my Springfields-with the original sights. You are sure on point about the Pre-WW1 rifles-pretty much all of them are wonderfully fit, finished, accurate and a real joy to shoot.

Bob

[KCSO]

And now for a big surprise...
I had some brass to empty so I could start on loads for the NEW gun. I had some Lee 165 spire points and my hunting load of 220 and RX7 and since they were loaded with 312 bullets figured I would have to burn them off and start over. ass/u/me ! Lo and behold the new bore shoots the 312 bullets just fine, 50 yards with the 165's is under 1" and 100 yards with the hunting load is 2 1/4" just over the top of the front sight. I did change the front sight to a blade from a swede as i get along better with the square blade. I also tried something new and it shows promise. I loaded 9 grains of Trail Boss under the 165's and it also hovered around 1" at 50 yards and the TB is about 3/4 of the case full. It is definatly not positional and makes a good mild (1250 fps) load. If you don't anneal the Graf's cases they tend to soot up a little with the T/B but no problems with Norma, Privi or converted 8mm Mauser Remington.

[straightshooter1]

KCSO-I never thought of the Trail Boss in a rifle for cast other than Cowboy games(haven't even opened the pound I bought a couple of months ago). Looks like it will be promising for CBs. I have a couple of nice rifles I can't get to shoot for beans with cast loads-maybe the TB will break the jinx.

I think I will stick with my IMR 4198 for the Argentine as it shoots so good with it that I am afraid to change.

The load that shoots so well for me is 18 grains of IMR4198, CCI Match Primers, .312 190 grain cast w/gas check (I got these from R&R bullets-It looks like a Lyman 311299, but I am not sure) seated to an OAL of 2.995 with brass that has had the primer pockets uniformed and the flash holes deburred as well as trimmed to a uniform length. Everyone at every gun shop shoots "an inch" or less when they are telling the story, but this one will do it when I do my part. Unfortunately, as I get older, I have many days when I can't do it. On the good days this load and rifle will really shoot an inch. On the other days, it's a bit more, but always a good grouping.


Bob

[straightshooter1]

Don't see that this is a violation of our rules, if it is, please Mod, just delete it.

On Gunboards there's a guy who seems to have gotten good feedback over time who is selling an Argy 1891 rifle which he says is pretty nice for $350 plus 15 for shipping. He was at $450 when he posted it yesterday.

I don't know him, have no financial or other stake in this, just passing it on.

Actually, all your posts got me interested in another carbine and I was scouting Gunbroker and Gunboards and AA for one when I saw this rifle.

Bob

[KCSO]

I started experimenting with T/B because I was looking for a powder that would bulk up well in the case and not be positional. A 30-30 shooter friend of mine told me that 9 grs of T/B almost filled his 30-30 case and shot super with the 170 cast. My hunting loads in the Argentine are RX7 or IMR 4895 and my target and plinking load is still Red Dot as I have put the Red Dot loads into an honest 1 3/4" for 5 at 100 yards.

[straightshooter1]

I wanted to try the TB in 45 Colt since I had read about it in several gun mags so I bought one lb. I might try it in 30-30, too. I found a load that shot cast pretty good in my old pre-micro groove 336 (IIRC about 2" or maybe just a bit more).

I have trouble with the beads on those type guns with the reduced High power targets I use. I shoot better with the plain blades, but it is hard to find them except for the mausers with the odd dovetail size.

I did not do well with Red Dot and the Argentine rifle. RX 7, one of my favorites for cast in the '06 was my first pick, since they are similar, I was making my cases from GI '06, etc., but I was disappointed.

Then I tried IMR 4198-both 18 and 19 grains. The 19 grain load shot well, but the 18 grain load (as in the above post) wow'd me and I only use it now.

Bob

[PatMarlin]

Nice rifle Rick. You have any pics of yours KCSO?

I don't know anything about these military mausers, but my 358 win I just got is built on a Czech BRNO VZ-24. It has the crest, and I believe it's a 1938, so being made prior to WW2 this should be a good one shouldn't it?

Feels nice and shoots well... :drinks:

[Jack Stanley]

Frank , I might have an unused 57 laying around . Do ya need one ?

Jack

[Frank46]

Jack, pm your way. I may have a line on a lyman 48 (maybe) but if its a steel lyman
then the answer is definitely yes. Pm me with the details. Frank

[eldeguello]

"By 1920's this guns like these were sold by Sears as German Hunting Rifles and still brought $12.00 or so, a healthy sum. Some folks think I am crazy to buy these old militay rifles when a modern plastic stocked slapped together Stavage or Remchester will mount a scope and shoot better, but just to look at the fine polish and carefull fitting that went into these old guns is a joy in itself."

As you mention, the workmanship on the Argentine Mausers from DWM or L. Loewe & Co. is superb. I happen to have a DWM M1909 that is also superb.

However, I think these guns will often shoot as well as any modern factory arm does without some tweaking to get the new ones to come up to their potential.

For example, this group was fired using .308" diameter, 200-grain bullets at 100 meters, using both Sierra and Nosler Partition jacket bullets (2 Siera, 3 Nosler) and enough IMR 4350 to average 2697 FPS @ 10' from the muzzle (29" barrel, 7.65X53mm chamber).

I haven't slugged my bore, but it shoots .308" bullets quite well, as you can see. It also shoots fairly well with Argentine (185-grain BT) and FN Belgian (174-grain BT) military ball ammo, both brands of which have .314" bullets (at least the ammo I have does.)

I am sure this rifle would do well with cast bullets also.