357maximum re 7.65 Argentine loads

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum

Per your request for the load info based on my post in an earlier thread.

As I previously mentioned the CIP MAP is about 55,000 psi (piezo-electric measurement). SAAMI doesn’t have a “standard” for the 7.54 Argentine/Belgian cartridge. I have measured the pressure of a couple different milsurp 7.65 Argentine cartridges and of Hornady’s factory load (made in Europe) and loaded with the Hornady 150 .312 SP and they run consistent at between 52 – 56, 000 psi(M43). I have two “favorite” top end hunting loads with the Hornady 150 .312 bullet. The first listed is the most consistently accurate load in my M91 “Scout” with 24” barrel and a Burris 3X IER scope on it. The second load is the most consistently accurate load in numerous M91 and M1909s. It runs close to 2900 fps out of 29” barreled M91s and M1909s. However for hunting with my M91 “scout” (pictured) I use the first load. It is also death and destruction on coyotes, rock chucks, jack rabbits and errant crows.

First load;

Hornady 150 gr SP .312 bullet
52.5 gr H380 (100% loading density)
WLR primer
Case formed from RP 8x57 cases with trim length of 2.126” which fits my rifles chamber.
Loaded cartridge AOL; 2.9”
Velocity average (10 shots); 2797 fps
ES; 49 fps
PSI(M43); 54,000
The target below is of 4 consecutive 3 shot groups which I fired to confirm this as a hunting load. I’ve never fired more than 2 shots a big game animal with a rifle so I just added an insurance shot. I let the barrel cool completely between groups. All 12 shots, if in one group would have gone into 1.1". I keep swearing I’m going to glass bed and pillar bed the action but if it ain’t broke why fix it:-)

Second load;

Hornady 150 gr SP .312 bullet
46 gr Varget
WLR primer
Case formed from RP 8x57 cases with trim length of 2.126” which fits my rifles chamber.
Loaded cartridge AOL; 2.9”
Velocity average (10 shots); 2741 fps
ES; 45 fps
PSI(M43); 54,500
This load averages right at MOA out of the M91 “Scout” and shoots very well in numerous other M91s and M1909s. It runs right at 2900 fps out of my 29” M91 and M1909 and shoots into 1.5 – 2 moa with the issue sights.

Hope this helps and good luck hunting with the M91.

Larry Gibson

[Frank46]

Larry, if I remember right old norma ammo in 7.65x53 with the 150 grain bullet had the velocity on the box. 2900 feet per second, I remember every one shot in my 91 argie with full length bbl. Think I still have a box of norma 150 grain bullets in this caliber. Think they were referred to as "tombac" bi-metal bullets. Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, if I remember right old norma ammo in 7.65x53 with the 150 grain bullet had the velocity on the box. 2900 feet per second, I remember every one shot in my 91 argie with full length bbl. Think I still have a box of norma 150 grain bullets in this caliber. Think they were referred to as "tombac" bi-metal bullets. Frank

Frank

Your memory isn't too bad. My 1969 "Cartridges of the World" Show Norma ballistics and prices on page 353. Shows the 7.65Argentine at 2920 fps with a PSP (Pointed Soft Point) 150 gr bullet. Doesn't give the name of the bullet. Does give a price of $6.50 per 20 rounds....wish I could get them for that now:-(

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Thank you Larry

Gives me a great place to start once I get my 150 grain redskins in my possession.

I have the brass formed and have been toying about a bit with some heavier j-words and that data along with your 150 data gives me a great place to start.

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum

Let me know the heavier bullets and powder you're interested in using and we can work up some tests of those? If I ever get done with the 6.5 tests I've some Sierra .311 180 SPs I'm thinking of testing with AA4350 in this 7.65.

Larry Gibson

[Frank46]

Larry, thanks a lot. Lotta brain cells have gone on to their just reward over the years. I don't even want to know what those loads go for today. Frank

[dualsport]

I just bought my first box of j-bullets in years, the Sierra .311 174 gr. BTHP MK. I'm getting ready to load them right now in 7.65 Arg. cases, some Normas I've had for 15 years. Can't decide on powder, I have narrowed it down to AA2700 or H4831, because I have them. I have a good selection of faster powders, but I understand the slower ones give better accuracy? My 1891 was DTd before I got it and has a Redfield one piece base so wears a nice scope. The plan is to kick some butt in a milsurp silhouette match in Open class. We'll see. I know the gun really likes the Hornady loads and bullet, had to try the MK.

[Larry Gibson]

dualsport

I've some of the 174 MKs also I use in my M91/30 sniper. I use also use the 175MKs in my .308W and '06. Varget is a very, very good powder in all of the so I'm planing on trying it in the 7.65 with the 174 MKs also when I get around to it.

Larry Gibson

[dualsport]

I'd like to try Varget too, I've read it's the berries for this. Loaded up one box today with 50.5 gr. WWII 4831. Mounted my new Bushnell Elite 10X on the '91 Argie and went to the range. Bore sighted at 100 and was on the paper first shot. That scope is sure easy to adjust. Before it had an old Weaver K6, good scope but no clicks, kinda hard to use when going from chickens to turkeys and such. Best group was 1 1/8" at 100 yds.! Yeehawww!!! All that's left now in this arms race (open class) is some trigger work, it's pretty heavy, but I want to keep it original. I'm the suspicious type, don't trust aftermarket triggers. I want something that will last ANOTHER century, like the one in it. My long range plan is to shoot the new NOE 316299 in the milsurp silhouette matches here. The MKs are for short term immediate gratification. I also am going to try them in my 91/30 and maybe Arisaka 7.7. That's a tough one as the sights are kinda funky, unless you're shooting at low flying airplanes . They're good for that.

[357maximum]

357maximum

Let me know the heavier bullets and powder you're interested in using and we can work up some tests of those? If I ever get done with the 6.5 tests I've some Sierra .311 180 SPs I'm thinking of testing with AA4350 in this 7.65.

Larry Gibson

Larry

I am playing with both the Hornady 174GR RN Interlock #3130 and the Speer 180Gr HCRN#2223.

I have shot both over mid-warm range charges of H414, and H4350 with immediate success (44 to 46 grns with both powders). My work with the argi is on hold until I get the stock refinish completed, but I am happy with my loads for the heavier j-words. Both powders at 46 grains would more than make a venison getter load with zero effort on my part.

I was mainly interested in the lighter 150 bullets just to see if I could duplicate the success others have had with lightweight j-words, as i was amazed at some of the success stories I have read with that small a bullet in this THROAT.

I had to evict a family of cave dwellers from this rifles throat before I fired the first rounds. ;-)

[StarMetal]

Mikey,

You really should check out my cast load of the Lyman 314299 over some IMR 7828 going into a 3/8 inch in the 2000 fps bracket. That's about a 210 grain bullet. Cast that out of AC 50/50 and I think you would have a deer load extraordinaire. It's in the Braziltine thread.
Hell I may even sell you the rifle.....NOT!!!!!! :kidding:

[Larry Gibson]

357maximum

I know of the "cave dwellers' in these old rifles also. The M91s do have long throats as the first 7.65 cartridges were loaded with long 211 gr RNFMJ bullets. The milsurp stup many times has a 185 gr FMJ bullet. I chronographed some of those years ago at around 2450 fps out of my M1909 with 29" barrel. They had the usual course cut european style medium burning flake powder in them. My guess is you're in the 2300 - 2400 fps range with those loads and the 174 gr Hornady. They should indeed be "venison getter(s)". The 150 gr Hornady SPs being .312 generally fit the throats well and they have a pretty long slb sided bearing surface for that weight of bullets. I think both of those contribute to the accuracy. Then to even though a longer cartridge the 7.65 has only a little more case capcity than the .308W due to the more pronounced taper of the 7.65 case. I find only 1 1/2 - 2 gr of powder difference between the 7.65 and .308W in capcity to the base of the case neck. The 7.65 is not only a very good jacketed bullet shooter but does very, very well with cast also, 314299 being my favorite in the 7.65.

Larry Gibson

[357maximum]

Mikey,

You really should check out my cast load of the Lyman 314299 over some IMR 7828 going into a 3/8 inch in the 2000 fps bracket. That's about a 210 grain bullet. Cast that out of AC 50/50 and I think you would have a deer load extraordinaire. It's in the Braziltine thread.
Hell I may even sell you the rifle.....NOT!!!!!! :kidding:

JoeY

I have a small pile of the NOE 316299's from Matt's mould to play with. Initial results of a large dose of H414/H4350 showed promise even though they do not engrave as I hoped. As I have said I have the rifle out of commission right now while it gets a jenny craig weight loss via the file and rasp and a total refinish. When the rifle is done the boolits should be aged just about right and the tests will continue. There is a "fitted" boolit for these 7.65 rifles in the very early planning stages and will be geared towards turning speed goats into freezer fodder. It will likely end up being a 314299 X Fat30 hybrid with critter getting and teeny groups in mind.

As far as the Brazilentine rifle....I have more projects on the table than i can afford as it is.

I have the shaw custom Gew98 in 35 whelen dialed in with the BRP 360-220 and I KNOW that one will kill a whitetail toes up. I have the 308 93 spaniard sporter all ready to kill with the BRP 180-Sil and a williams peeper, the scoped 1891 argentine theoretically ready as soon as I get my finish worked down to a good finish. I have a gifted custom with the original stepped barrel 98 "standard modell" 98 in 7X57 Ackley Improved with a fiberglass stock that will likely stay a HV j-word only gun that is already a one shot killer at 450 yards+.

What is amazing is that all 4 of em like the upper end H414/H4350 loads with their respective projectiles. 4 rifles...same powders, same upper end fondness with different boolits/bullets. I need the funds for a couple of new scopes, some 7X57 brass and a set of 7X57A.I dies just to finish up what I already have in the works. I am set and happier than a pig in mud as it is........fishing season is here, morel season is starting, I do not need something else to work with right now................so have fun with your frankentine rifle.........I cannot afford it or the time for it.;-)..besides what I would do to the stock and them barrel bands might just hurt your feelings.:kidding:

[357maximum]

357maximum

I know of the "cave dwellers' in these old rifles also. The M91s do have long throats as the first 7.65 cartridges were loaded with long 211 gr RNFMJ bullets. The milsurp stup many times has a 185 gr FMJ bullet. I chronographed some of those years ago at around 2450 fps out of my M1909 with 29" barrel. They had the usual course cut european style medium burning flake powder in them. My guess is you're in the 2300 - 2400 fps range with those loads and the 174 gr Hornady. They should indeed be "venison getter(s)". The 150 gr Hornady SPs being .312 generally fit the throats well and they have a pretty long slb sided bearing surface for that weight of bullets. I think both of those contribute to the accuracy. Then to even though a longer cartridge the 7.65 has only a little more case capcity than the .308W due to the more pronounced taper of the 7.65 case. I find only 1 1/2 - 2 gr of powder difference between the 7.65 and .308W in capcity to the base of the case neck. The 7.65 is not only a very good jacketed bullet shooter but does very, very well with cast also, 314299 being my favorite in the 7.65.

Larry Gibson




Larry

I can/am actually switch/ing between my load for the BRP 308 SIL in my 308spaniard to my load for the 1891 argi without ever touching the adjusting knob on my powder measure.8-) Slightly larger case with a heavier boolit = same powder charge as my low pressure 180gr 308 loads.............life is good.

[StarMetal]

357maximum

I know of the "cave dwellers' in these old rifles also. The M91s do have long throats as the first 7.65 cartridges were loaded with long 211 gr RNFMJ bullets. The milsurp stup many times has a 185 gr FMJ bullet. I chronographed some of those years ago at around 2450 fps out of my M1909 with 29" barrel. They had the usual course cut european style medium burning flake powder in them. My guess is you're in the 2300 - 2400 fps range with those loads and the 174 gr Hornady. They should indeed be "venison getter(s)". The 150 gr Hornady SPs being .312 generally fit the throats well and they have a pretty long slb sided bearing surface for that weight of bullets. I think both of those contribute to the accuracy. Then to even though a longer cartridge the 7.65 has only a little more case capcity than the .308W due to the more pronounced taper of the 7.65 case. I find only 1 1/2 - 2 gr of powder difference between the 7.65 and .308W in capcity to the base of the case neck. The 7.65 is not only a very good jacketed bullet shooter but does very, very well with cast also, 314299 being my favorite in the 7.65.

Larry Gibson

You're right about that flake powder Larry. I bought some Argentine military 7.65 from Springfield Sporters back when Tyrannosaurus Rex still walked the U.S. and pulled some apart and that's what they had in them.

I also noticed a difference between throats in my 91 carbine and my 1909 Braziltine barrel.

[7.65,1891mooseeater]

hello i am a little timid about reloading cartridges for my 7.65-53 1891 argentine mauser i am reloading my ammo for 30-06 it eats hornady 150 grin bullet and 56 grn of h4350 and cci 200 primer so what is a good load for my 7.65 1891 arg with h4350 powder and a 150 grin 303 hornady bullet the gun is in good condition and fires factory ppu at 100 yards 1.7'' group so what is a good load with H4350? thanks

[357maximum]

hello i am a little timid about reloading cartridges for my 7.65-53 1891 argentine mauser i am reloading my ammo for 30-06 it eats hornady 150 grin bullet and 56 grn of h4350 and cci 200 primer so what is a good load for my 7.65 1891 arg with h4350 powder and a 150 grin 303 hornady bullet the gun is in good condition and fires factory ppu at 100 yards 1.7'' group so what is a good load with H4350? thanks

I have both a 20inch and a 22 inch 1891 sporter and they both shoot the mid book loading of 47Grains of H4350 with that jacketed pill pretty good.

Both of mine do prefer 4X.0 grains of H414 however.

How long is your barrel?

[blastit37]

Larry: does the 2.9 oal get you anywhere near the lands with that 150g bullet or is it just getting the bullet well in the case for support?

[Ed in North Texas]

Larry: does the 2.9 oal get you anywhere near the lands with that 150g bullet or is it just getting the bullet well in the case for support?

Larry may not answer, his post is from the original thread of April, 2010. You might PM the question to him.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry: does the 2.9 oal get you anywhere near the lands with that 150g bullet or is it just getting the bullet well in the case for support?

Photo of 7.65 Argie cartridges shows;

Sierra 180 gr .311 seated backwards with base to leade if my M91 unaltered rifle with 2.599 aol.

314299 seated to 2.96 aol. Formed '06 case at max case length for chamber. Bullet seated so lube groove is just covered.

Hornady 150 SP .312 at 2.9 oal.

Hornady factory 150 SP .312 at 2,877 aol.

New Norma factory 150 SP .312 at 2.832 oal.

Old Norma factory 150 SP .311 at 2.828 oal.

Lee TL314-90-SWC over 3.2 gr BE (930 fps) at 2.41 oal.

As can be seen, none of the loads bullets are seated anywhere near the leade.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

A real sleeper bullet for these is the Remington 180gr roundnose. It is .310" diameter but shoots very well. does a number on elk also.

[blastit37]

Thanks Ed. I was so engrossed in the content that I diddn't look at the date.
Larry, thanks for the great reply.

[7.65,1891mooseeater]

my barrel is 19" it was bubbafied by my grandpa for a deer rifle in 1940 i can hit a 2'.2' target no problem from 300 yds. with the iron sights but because the barrel was cut down the flip up rear sight does not line up the way it should. not to mention, the powder they used back then was black powder, does anyone know how many grains of FFG black powder they used back the? thanks

[Larry Gibson]

I'm not aware that BP was used in the 7.65? I believe the original load used a 211 gr jacketed RN over the typical European flake type ballistite powder developed by Nobel(?). Velocity out of the 29 1/2" barrels was around 2150 fps.

Larry Gibson

[7.65,1891mooseeater]

thank you, i diddent think they used bp but somebody told me they did so i figured i might as well ask , so thank you.

[adrians]

7.65,1891.
me thinks Larry is right about the 7.65 mauser cartridge being solely smokeless.

here's mine ,,,it sporting a Williams ramp front sight and the original rear was removed and fitted with a Williams adustable "V" notch, i loosened the elevation screw and slid it off (my eye's :groner: ) and D/T for a the Redfield peeper,the barrel was cut to 24" now i can see what i'm looking at [smilie=1:.

great rifles ,very very well made.....

[7.65,1891mooseeater]

Adrians: how did you get your sporterised stock for your argentine? did u make it or buy it?

[357maximum]

Adrians: how did you get your sporterised stock for your argentine? did u make it or buy it?

I would say that was an old Bishop stock as it is very similar to both of my sporter stocks.

[leadman]

Boyd's Gunstocks has a pretty nice stock for around $70 to $80 for the '91. I bought my sporter stock probably 10 years ago from a place in Calif. Think it was Richard's but not sure now.

Accurate 2520 works real well in the 7.65 arg. and gives pretty high velocities. I'm getting well over 2,500 fps with the 180gr bullet.

[adrians]

I would say that was an old Bishop stock as it is very similar to both of my sporter stocks.


" 7.65,1891mooseeater Adrians: how did you get your sporterised stock for your argentine? did u make it or buy it? "

7.65,, i got the rifle that way.
i was looking for a sporter to scope and saw this one but upon further contemplation about scopeing the rifle i decided to put a Redfield peep on it instead, ( i knew there was a reason i bought that peep a couple of years ago.) this rifle just begged for it.
i can always scope it later when my eyes won't play nice with apertures anymore.
oh and 357 maximum ,,,,,yup , good call ,[smilie=p: