marlin 30AS and the lee soupcan...

[saskgunowner101]

Just curious as to where to go next with my reloads. I have a late 80's Marlin 30AS which I believe is the plain version of the Marlin 336 (micro-groove if it matters) and I'm using the Lee C-309-113-F aka soupcan for plinking loads. The batch of bullets dropped from the mold at .311 and only air cooled them. Nothing fancy for lead just plain old wheel weights.

I worked up from 6 to 9 grains Unique going in .5 increments and the with the top drive band above the case.....any longer and they would stick in the seating die. I decided to shoot these bullets "as cast" without sizing. My lube was a brew of beeswax, parrafin, mineral oil, a bit of candle and crayons. It's slightly tacky.

Now, the wind was howling like crazy today so I figured I'd blast away at 25 meters and whatever shot the best would be the load to build around. The 6 grains of Unique put 4 in a .6 group and a flyer bumped it up to 1.5. The 6.5 grains did roughly the same without a flyer.

I had the rear sight jacked up to the highest setting and these loads were hitting probably 4 inches low. Then, my groups opened up like crazy(3-4 inches) with the higher powder charges and I scratched my head for some time.:???: I did notice up around 9 grains Unique the rifle was shooting near point of aim.

I'm just wondering what could have went so wrong. I suppose the wind could play into it a bit, but not what I was seeing....

What are my options here?
1) Different lube? Add some alox?
2) Water dropped to harden the bullet up?
3) Clean barrel and try again? (had not cleaned barrel since using factory ammo)
4) Avoid wind??Take up drinking??

The barrel was not heavily leaded....although there was lube build up maybe from lube sitting where the gas check should have been. Any and all thoughts appreciated.:drinks:

[243winxb]

Oven heat treat/water cool and/or add a gas check

[wmitty]

Sounds like you might have reached a chamber pressure too high for the alloy's strength or simply need to heat treat the boolet. I have done some shooting with the soup can but I was using gas checks and liquid alox.

[JIMinPHX]

The Marlin 30-AS was a version of the 336 that was made for a short time, right around when Marlin took over Glenfield (SP?). I think that the wood was slightly different from the 336, & it may have had a shorter "trapper length" barrel. Aside from that, it's a 336 & I believe that all the parts are interchangeable. I seem to remember that the 30-AS had a real fat fore-stock on it. I believe that they all had Microgroove barrels.

I've had great luck using the Lee 150-grain FP , sized to .310, over stiff charges of RE-7 in a Microgroove Marlin. They shot better than factory ammo & at the same speed. The same boolit with a modest charge of Unique gave good accuracy around 1300fps. Air cooled WW perform fairly well on game. Water dropped WW were slightly more accurate, but didn't expand worth jack, even at 2,000+fps contact speed. I haven't tried the soup can.

The soup can may be too short to allow you to seat it out to where it touches the rifling. That may be part of your accuracy problem. Lead boolits are pretty sensitive to that, especially the softer ones & especially at higher speeds.

[Maineboy]

I did some experiments with the soupcan and my 26"barreled 1894 Winchester a while back. I took some unsized-unchecked TL'd boolits and some TL'd, checked, and sized .311 and loaded them with identical powder charges. I believe I had 3 different loads using Unique, 2400 and Green Dot. All the checked and sized boolits shot very well and the unchecked loads did much worse. I was looking for a cheaper way shoot this boolit but I found you gotta add a check to it if you expect it to perform. I was going to try seating the unchecked/unsized boolits BACKWARDS to see if that made a difference but I never got around to it. Maybe someday...

[saskgunowner101]

Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'm going to give it another go. Barrel is cleaned up, going to put some alox on the bullets, try some of the water dropped ones, and go from there. I'm not sure where I'm going but I'm sure I'll get there eventually.:-)

I don't have a chrony yet so does anyone have a clue as to what velocities I would be running near with 6-9 grains Unique?

[35remington]

Typically Marlins have short throats, so it shouldn't be an issue getting the bullet's front band close to the rifling if you so desire. The bullet has a fat front band and should easily be capable of touching the rifling with enough left in the case for the neck to grip the bullet. Try it and see.

Since this bullet is an all body type like a Louverin, there is little of the bullet left unsupported as there's not much of a bore riding section, just a very short hemispherical nose. These bullet types tend to shoot very well in Marlins, which often don't like some bore riding bullets due to their shorter land height.

The upper range of Unique you're shooting is outrunning the capabilities of a gascheck bullet used without a gascheck. I'd put the nine grain charge in the 1500 to 1600 fps range, which explains why they aren't shooting.

First, put on the gaschecks and see what the bullet is capable of. Your groups will likely get smaller. Second, back off on the powder horn to the 6-7 grain range with the checkless bullets and try again. Try the same charge with the bullets using gaschecks and see how you do.

[saskgunowner101]

I was hoping to limp by without gas checks for the time being....shows what I know. I will try a few more of the lower powered ones while I look for gas checks in my area. Thanks.

[Buckshot]

.............There were 3 group buys done of that boolit. The original 2 cav's I (still) have both dropped their boolits right at .313" and a bit. The first 6 banger GB did also, and with lino would actually reach .314". Cast hard my buddy Ron was getting groups a tad over an inch at 100 YARDS going 2100 fps from a scoped 30-30 Win M94.

These little scudders WILL shoot. By juggeling boolit hardness, powder burn rate (speed) and lube you can get some fairly decent shooting without using GC's. However not using GC's will place limitations on higher velocity and requires the monkeying around mentioned above. Of course the monkeying around can be fun too, if you have the time, inclination and keep good records.

http://www.fototime.com/9DDC9AF2291A561/standard.jpg

This is 8.0grs of Red Dot, Lee C309-113F. 1903 Sporter Springfield. Iron sights, 50 yards. When I lived out in the sticks we had ground squirrels and the main eradicator was a scoped M582 Rem 22RF. However I worked up a load with that Lee slug and some SR7625 to use in my 1903A1 springfield. With the rear sight ladder standing up and the elevator at (I think it was ) 300 yards it was dead on at 50 yards. That was about the longest range I was any good at with those iron sights, and the size of the targets.

One of those flat nosed 30 cal slugs at 1400 fps placed most anywhere on a ground squirrel and it was a done deal. [smilie=l:

...............Buckshot

[243winxb]

See what adding a Gas Check did for this shooter. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80558

[saskgunowner101]

See what adding a Gas Check did for this shooter. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=80558

I just stumbled across that and the group on the left could have been my own.

[saskgunowner101]

Well, a little more testing to see whats what. As mentioned, I gave the barrel a good cleaning. I figured I'd stay with the low charge of 6 grains Unique and use water quenched bullets this time instead of the air cooled ones.. I got a couple interesting groups, again, only at 25 meters until I can dial it in a bit.

A few stubby cartridges.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w141/dawnjustin/marlin30asgroups004.jpg

Here's the first 5 shot group from a clean barrel. I'm not sure what to make of the vertical string. About an inch or so vertical, and probably 1/4 inch horizontal.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w141/dawnjustin/marlin30asgroups005.jpg

Second group with one bullet not being a team player. My shooting isn't that bad so I'm blaming the bullet on this one. The 4 shot group is better than what I'm looking for, but I'll take it.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w141/dawnjustin/marlin30asgroups006.jpg

I then pulled the bolt and had a look through the barrel. Except for what looked like two flakes of powder, you could not tell it had been fired. I figured I'd try a couple of the air cooled ones just to see. Then I got this interesting horizontal string.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w141/dawnjustin/marlin30asgroups007.jpg

I then checked the barrel, noticeable leading.....I'm new to this so I was quite suprised at that. So does anyone have any thoughts on the stringing? I think I can make this load work before I get some gas checks.....with some tweaking. Thoughts?

[Buckshot]

I then checked the barrel, noticeable leading.....I'm new to this so I was quite suprised at that. So does anyone have any thoughts on the stringing? I think I can make this load work before I get some gas checks.....with some tweaking. Thoughts?

No telling. Light shift? Levergun-itis? The leading from the first slug could have caused it. Holding the rifle a bit differently?

...............Buckshot

[JIMinPHX]

Sometimes tube-fed lever-guns string because of the different amount of underside pressure on the barrel depending on how many cartridges are left in the tube. There are all sorts of tricks that you can do to minimize this effect, but the first thing that you want to do is isolate the cause of the problem. If you load a single cartridge each time by hand instead of loading up the magazine & the stringing goes away, then we may need to have a conversation about free floating the magazine. If loading single cartridges does not eliminate the stringing, then we need to look elsewhere.

Respectable groups, by the way. I didn't do that well when I loaded the COAL that short in my 30-30.

[saskgunowner101]

If you load a single cartridge each time by hand instead of loading up the magazine & the stringing goes away, then we may need to have a conversation about free floating the magazine. If loading single cartridges does not eliminate the stringing, then we need to look elsewhere.




Respectable groups, by the way. I didn't do that well when I loaded the COAL that short in my 30-30.

I will give that a try next....I was even being so anal as to load a cartridge and point it to the sky to settle the powder to the back just in case that little bit of voodoo helps.


I figured there's some potential there, especially after seeing the scary groups the air cooled bullets produced before this batch. We're talking between 3-5 inch groups at 25 meters..[smilie=b: It seems this rifle has a short throat....I think I can seat the bullet about .02 longer than the ones in the picture before they just get set back while chambering.

[JIMinPHX]

It seems this rifle has a short throat....I think I can seat the bullet about .02 longer than the ones in the picture before they just get set back while chambering.

Unusual...that's not the case on the other Marlins that I have messed with. I had to seat the 150-grain boolits out far enough to almost expose the lube grooves before I hit the refiling. Maybe my noses were a little thinner. You're getting good groups, so I don't doubt that you are seating out to an appropriate length. It just seems strange that my experience with that type of gun was so different.

[Boondocker]

I am following this thread closely as I just got that pristine 30 AS and have been load developing with the heavier boolits. Them 113's look like they can be fun and the right medicine for them up close varmits. Easy on lead and powder helps too. You fellas have some good info going on here. :bigsmyl2:

[saskgunowner101]

Unusual...that's not the case on the other Marlins that I have messed with. I had to seat the 150-grain boolits out far enough to almost expose the lube grooves before I hit the refiling. Maybe my noses were a little thinner. You're getting good groups, so I don't doubt that you are seating out to an appropriate length. It just seems strange that my experience with that type of gun was so different.

Maybe not the throat, the rifling?? The cartridge c.o.l. is 2.284, measures .311 on the top drive band, the band has .1 sticking above the case, and a measurement of .298 above the band. I'll keep tinkering with it and take it out a little further on the range for my next go.

[JIMinPHX]

That boolit may be fat enough to catch on the edge of the throat. The throats in those can be kind of abrupt.

Your groups look good enough that I think you are getting consistent boolit starts in the chamber though. If you were seeing a pattern that was 8" across, then I'd start crying about the boolit not being seated far enough out, but with the boolit holes touching, it's kind of hard for me to jump up on that particular soapbox.

A chamber casting may shed some light on the situation for you. Even if you just did one out of candle wax, it would be good enough to get a visual of what is inside the barrel & give you something to compare your loaded cartridge to.

[fatelvis]

I have a 1948 vintage Marlin 336 in 30-30, with regular rifling that I use for Levergun Silhouette matches. When loading a Lyman 311041 (173 grn boolit) to the crimp groove, the rifling firmly engraves the ogive when the action is closed. I was wondering if the short leade was normal, and I'm glad to see it is common. I was thinking about firelapping the barrel, to move back the lands a little, and smooth the rifling at the same time.

[35remington]

Jim, the microgroove Marlins have short throats but oftentimes a bit larger bore diameter, which explains why you can seat your bore rider out a bit.

The seating depth found necessary here for the Soupcan is not one bit unusual for a bullet with a full caliber front band so near the meplat used in a short throat rifle.

An accurate load should produce pretty much one hole groups at 25 yards. Fifty yards separates the good from the also rans more decisively. The horizontally and vertically strung groups shot at 25 will look much worse at fifty.

At 25 yards even inadequate grouping loads look "good enough." Given the velocity levels and utility of the loads shown here, I believe 50 yards is a more valid and informative test.

[saskgunowner101]

35remington:

I'll get to some testing at 50 meters for my next go and try to work out the bugs from there.(minus the wind)

[saskgunowner101]

Finally got some nicer weather around here. To make a long story short, took the same load out to 75 meters and am getting 2- 2.5 inch groups consistently. I don't know if there's such a thing as a load "settling in" on a rifle or if it's better trigger pull. Maybe the wind, who knows??

The only thing I did not do is tip the barrel up before every shot as I had before.....anyways, good enough for the girls I roll with. I'll kick them in the rear a bit harder when I get my gas checks, but for now, plenty good enough.:)