358009 Expansion Test

[richhodg66]

I have cast a batch of these using wheel weights with 2 ounces of 95/5 solder thrown in per ten pound pot. I plan on shooting these with 49-51 grains of RL-15 (still developing loads, but this range seems promising so far).

Since this is to be a deer hunting load, I want to do some expansion testing, so I'm rounding up newsprint to try it this weekend. Anybody have an idea how many feet of wet newspaper I can expect this to penetrate? This is going to be a certain amount of trouble, so I want to make sure I have enough to recover the bullets but at the same time want to minimize the mess I have to police up afterwards.

I've never done this before, by the way. If anyone has some words of wisdom about how to conduct a good test of hunting bullet expansion, I'm all ears.

[waksupi]

Well, the 358009 isn't going to expand on something as flimsy as a deer. Take it from me, they will kill just fine, without a lot of extra fuss on your part.
Not sure how much paper you will need, but I can tell you it will penetrate 3/4" steel at 200 yards.

[Blammer]

I'd have at least 5 feet thick of wet paper.

[JDL]

The 250 grain 358318 ww alloy wasn't stopped in 21" of wet newsprint with a starting velocity of 1899 fps. I also tested a .35 cal. 220 grain FN (.20" meplat) started at 2060 fps and it penetrated 21.5".
JDL

[jtaylor1960]

I thought of using that bullet in my 35 Whelen for deer this year.I am anxious to here of your results.Good Luck.

[waksupi]

JT, they work just fine on deer, bear, moose, elk, and buffalo.

[jtaylor1960]

What alloy do you use on deer? I have WW+tin and some Lyman #2.

[richhodg66]

I gotta get some more newspaper! I hope to get out Friday and do this. I'm pretty sure my regular range won't let me do this, so I'll have to figure out another place to do it.

I'd like for it to expand some just to make sure there's plenty of energy transfer, but like waksupi says, it most likely isn't necessary. I'm curious anyway if nothing else, it'll satisfy that.

I really hope I can develop an accurate load with this bullet/rifle combo.

[waksupi]

I shoot straight wheel weights.

[Shuz]

I use 3:1 (ww:lino) on the 358009 in my .35 Whelen because I'm pushing them at 2150 fps. Accuracy is very good, but I get no expansion. I've only ever recovered one boolit shot on a bull moose, but as Ric says...it kills very well. I don't worry about expansion on a .35 caliber. Dead is dead!

[Greg in Malad]

I get bannana boxes from the grocery store to hold the wet newspaper. Stack it in somewhat loose( it will swell up when wet) and soak it with a hose. Two boxes is enough to stop everything I shoot. Bannana boxes are very heavy duty and waxed so they don't fall apart when wet, makes clean up a snap. With air cooled wheel weights you will get expansion down to 1400 fps, and at 2000 fps they will roll into a ball.

[Nrut]

Hello Greg,
How many feet of wet news paper does one bannana box equal?
I plan on making bundles tied together with duct tape is why I ask...
Thanks..

[Blammer]

it's a bout 4 bannanas wide.. :)

[Greg in Malad]

I can measure tomorrow, but I think there about 2' long. I would get the boxes first, I'm sure there not all the same. I fill mine with the free classified papers.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Just shoot some of those boolits into a mixed miscellanouus dirt/sand/clay backstop where the dirt has been shoveled back to fill the slump in the impact area. Dig out a few and measure them. if one end is .359" or so and the other an uneven, less than perfect ragged.953" diameter, You can save a few trees, several bananna boxes and perhaps a hernia of wet newspaper.

If you ever recover one later from a big, snow covered moose, or several wet deer shot during an ambush in rank, you can verify my observation, or not.

BvT

[richhodg66]

Well, the boy and I went to the city newspaper office dumpster and got a whole [edit] of newsprint, and I have tomorrow off. Unfortunately, turkey season started today, so the public hunting land I plan to do this on may have a lot of people on it and you're not supposed to target shoot out there. I'll get it figured out. Saturday will be a trip to the real range for some load testing for accuracy. I'm digging this .35 Whelen project.

[Bret4207]

As Ric and some others have noted, you won't need or get much expamsion on deer with your alloy. You'd have to soften it and boost the speed to get much expansion. Also remember wet anything isn't the same as deer flesh, so your test won't relate directly to what it'll do in game.

FWIW- I shot a 35-260 GB design cast in WW from my 35 Whelen with a MV around 1800 fps into a horse carcass a couple years back. It penetrated front to back of an 1800 lbs animal- that's lengthwise.

[richhodg66]

Wow, that's a long ways to go through something. What is a GB design?

[richhodg66]

Well, the test didn't go so well. I used my load of 51 grains of RL-15 because that is where I got best accuracy with a similar bullet before. I fired three shots from 25 yards into bundles of newspaper and the bullets fragmented badly, disintegrated may be a more accurate description.

To be fair, I didn't get the paper as wet as I thought. I bundled it into stacks a foot thick, bound them tightly with baling twine and then sat each one in the lake with a rock on top to keep it submerged for several minutes. Apparently that wasn't enough, because when I cut into the bundles after shooting, large portions of the inside were still dry, so it was probably a lot tougher medium than it should have been.

I still have most of my paper bundles in tact, I may go wet them down longer and try this again this weekend.

[Greg in Malad]

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz110/greginmalad/100_0506.jpg
These are Lee C309-150-fp air cooled wheel weights shot at 2000 fps into wet paper. At 1400 fps they expand to 1/2" diameter and retain 100% weight.

[richhodg66]

That's a good bullet. I think the fact that my paper bundles were packed so tight and not wet enough made it much harder than it should have been. I'm going to keep working with this bullet as I think it's a winner, so many guys telling me what good things it does on game. I just need to work up the right combo still.

[Greg in Malad]

Rich,
I have the NOE 358318 that I use in a .350 Rem. So far the best I can get is 2 MOA @ 1800 fps with a 12 BHN bullet. I was hoping for good accuracy at 2000 fps, but 1800 would ruin an elk's day. Wet paper testing may not exactly duplicate animal flesh, but it will let you compare wound channel size, and it's fun.

[Larry Gibson]

richhodg66

"Since this is to be a deer hunting load...."

As mentioned several times, your alloy is probably too hard for any expansion on a normal shot on deer. I've used an alloy of 50/50 WW/lead for some years in rifle .30s, 8mms, .45s and now .35s. I've found it to give excellent expansion in deer, especially if the HP is 1/3 to 2/3 deep into the nose. I push these these into the 2000-2200 fps muzzle velocity range except for the .45s and they are usually in the 1600 - 1800 fps range. All my bullets are GC'd of course and any good lube will work fine, I use Javelina.

They will all shoot into 1 - 2 moa for the first 5 -7 shots. After that fouling builds up and accuracy goes to 3-4 moa. I almost always hunt with a clean bore or at maximum, with one fouling shot. Since I've never shot more than 2 shots at any deer I figure if I have got it in 5 -7 shots I might as well go home and clean the rifle anyways 'cause I ain't doin' no good huntin':-)

Below are a couple pictures of the loaded .35 Rems. The target under the rifle is of two 5 shot groups for zero at 100 yards and the bottom half target is the 200 yard group after zero. Barrel was cleaned between all 3 groups and 1st shot from cold clean barrel is in the group. Also are two pictures of entrace into the chest cavity and exit of a nice 8 point I shot down Texas way last Novemeber.

Just food for thought on you alloy for good expansion.

Larry Gibson

[richhodg66]

Yeah, next time around, I'll try something softer, this is the first batch cast with this mold and wheel weights were what I had already in ingots.

[Blammer]

when you bundle the newspaper leave a about 4 inches for expansion of the paper, that way all of it will get wet and very HEAVY.

I have the NOE 358318 and cast up some with the dish HP, I'm waiting to try them out. got to get to the range one day this week.

[Nrut]

it's a bout 4 bannanas wide.. :)
Green or ripe?

[StarMetal]

richhodg66

"Since this is to be a deer hunting load...."

As mentioned several times, your alloy is probably too hard for any expansion on a normal shot on deer. I've used an alloy of 50/50 WW/lead for some years in rifle .30s, 8mms, .45s and now .35s. I've found it to give excellent expansion in deer, especially if the HP is 1/3 to 2/3 deep into the nose. I push these these into the 2000-2200 fps muzzle velocity range except for the .45s and they are usually in the 1600 - 1800 fps range. All my bullets are GC'd of course and any good lube will work fine, I use Javelina.

They will all shoot into 1 - 2 moa for the first 5 -7 shots. After that fouling builds up and accuracy goes to 3-4 moa. I almost always hunt with a clean bore or at maximum, with one fouling shot. Since I've never shot more than 2 shots at any deer I figure if I have got it in 5 -7 shots I might as well go home and clean the rifle anyways 'cause I ain't doin' no good huntin':-)

Below are a couple pictures of the loaded .35 Rems. The target under the rifle is of two 5 shot groups for zero at 100 yards and the bottom half target is the 200 yard group after zero. Barrel was cleaned between all 3 groups and 1st shot from cold clean barrel is in the group. Also are two pictures of entrace into the chest cavity and exit of a nice 8 point I shot down Texas way last Novemeber.

Just food for thought on you alloy for good expansion.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

You must have switched from your previous WW alloy when 45 2.1 had been telling us that air cooled 50/50 alloy was one of the best for a cast hunting bullet. Going back in old posts seems to have occurred around 2008 for you, just the time 45 2.1 and I were promoting the alloy. I switched from AC WW's too.

AC'ed WW's and the AC 50/50 are both good for expansion but the 50/50 doesn't seem to shear as much. 50/50 is actually stronger, much stronger, then the mixture suggests.

[Bret4207]

Wow, that's a long ways to go through something. What is a GB design?

Group Buy.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

Your assumption is incorrect.

I had been using HP molds with limited success since '68 on deer (311041HP) with the usual casting of air cooled WWs. I found as most others did that the HP portion seldom expanded evenly with minimal weight loss. Most often the expansion petals blew off rather quickly. They killed the deer but I wasn't satisfied with their performance. I was getting really good expansion using a Forster HP tool in very soft cast GC'ed revolver bullets at 1400+ fps. Those softer alloys however wouldn't stand up to the 2000+ fps muzzle velocities I wanted.

There was an article in the AR about alloys for hunting involving WWs, lead and solder. I used that combination with pretty good success if I did not go over 2000 fps. Then in '87 the Cast Bullet Supplement #1 came out. In it is an article on cast bullets in Africa where the author was using a .375 H&H. One of the alloys used which he recommended for "light game" was WWs and lead a 30/70 proportion. He also heat treated them to about 20 BHN. I fooled around with variations that alloy by testing in stacks of old Shotgun News thoroughly soaked and quickly found that and alloy of 40/60 WW/lead cast 3110141 and air cooled gave excellent performance on deer sized game in 30 cals with velocities of 2000 - 2200 fps out to 200 yards. I also found that shortening the HP stem so the HP is at 2/3s or so the length of the nose gave more controlled expansion with better weight retension.

I also used straight "hard" shot as an alloy and WQ'd them out of the mould as per Paco Kelly's writings. That alloy actually worked the best with a regular FN 311041 and blunter nosed cast bullets like 311291 if the muzzle velocity was up around 2200 fps.

Then somewhere in the in time (I don't remember exactly when) the composition of WWs was softened. With the "newer" softer WWs I began using a 50/50 alloy of WW/lead to compenstate for the softer WWs. I don't recall exactly when that was but it was well before I deployed to Iraq in '04. Back when 45 2.1 began extolling the virtues of that alloy I believe I concured with him. With the newer softer WWs it ia hard to find an alloy that does any better for hunting with cast bullets in rifles.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Starmetal

Your assumption is incorrect.

I had been using HP molds with limited success since '68 on deer (311041HP) with the usual casting of air cooled WWs. I found as most others did that the HP portion seldom expanded evenly with minimal weight loss. Most often the expansion petals blew off rather quickly. They killed the deer but I wasn't satisfied with their performance. I was getting really good expansion using a Forster HP tool in very soft cast GC'ed revolver bullets at 1400+ fps. Those softer alloys however wouldn't stand up to the 2000+ fps muzzle velocities I wanted.

There was an article in the AR about alloys for hunting involving WWs, lead and solder. I used that combination with pretty good success if I did not go over 2000 fps. Then in '87 the Cast Bullet Supplement #1 came out. In it is an article on cast bullets in Africa where the author was using a .375 H&H. One of the alloys used which he recommended for "light game" was WWs and lead a 30/70 proportion. He also heat treated them to about 20 BHN. I fooled around with variations that alloy by testing in stacks of old Shotgun News thoroughly soaked and quickly found that and alloy of 40/60 WW/lead cast 3110141 and air cooled gave excellent performance on deer sized game in 30 cals with velocities of 2000 - 2200 fps out to 200 yards. I also found that shortening the HP stem so the HP is at 2/3s or so the length of the nose gave more controlled expansion with better weight retension.

I also used straight "hard" shot as an alloy and WQ'd them out of the mould as per Paco Kelly's writings. That alloy actually worked the best with a regular FN 311041 and blunter nosed cast bullets like 311291 if the muzzle velocity was up around 2200 fps.

Then somewhere in the in time (I don't remember exactly when) the composition of WWs was softened. With the "newer" softer WWs I began using a 50/50 alloy of WW/lead to compenstate for the softer WWs. I don't recall exactly when that was but it was well before I deployed to Iraq in '04. Back when 45 2.1 began extolling the virtues of that alloy I believe I concured with him. With the newer softer WWs it ia hard to find an alloy that does any better for hunting with cast bullets in rifles.

Larry Gibson

Huh? Come on Larry, I was close. :kidding:

[yondering]

...and then sat each one in the lake with a rock on top to keep it submerged for several minutes. Apparently that wasn't enough, ...

You need to soak the paper overnight to get it really wet. I plunk mine in the wheelbarrow, and fill the wheelbarrow with water. Makes it easier to transport that way. If you have a pickup, maybe put a tarp in the back of the truck and fill the bed with water so you can haul the wet paper to your shooting spot easier.

[Larry Gibson]

Starmetal

A lot of individual bullet casters have been working on good ductile alloys that can be shot accurately in rifles and that give good expansion with/without HPs for many years. I don't know who came up with the WW/lead variation or the exact %s. What matters is what works and there are a few combinations that do work. For me WW/lead at 50/50 mix does the trick for hunting bullets which is what richodg66 was interested in.

Now, I will admit to not giving that alloy much thought for HV loads because of the fouling issues which always deteriorated accuracy in my tests. Works very well for hunting using medium velocity load if the barrel is cleaned as I mentioned. So, because you and 45 2.1 are swearing by it for HV loads (I consider HV cast rifle bullets loads to be those of 2300+ fps) I have been trying it. Actually my experience, so far, with HV cast bullet rifle loads is that a harder but still ductile alloy is needed.

Perhaps if you quit "pulling chains" things might be meaningful, eh?

Larry Gibson

[82nd airborne]

I have found that water is a fairly accurate test medium in regards to bullet expansion. i just line up milk jugs full of water and let 'er rip. 7 should stop the boolit, and you dont have to dig thru anything to find it. it will be in the last empty milk jug.
aaron