questionable strength of Turk mauser

[Bullshop]

I recently acquired several Turk mausers from a member here. My plan was to make them into 375 Scovill's to sell from my shop.
I asked at ER Shaw if they would re barrel them for me and this was the reply,

Good morning
Unfortunately we can not help you with any part of this request.
We do not accept customer supplied reamers to cut any chambers
We also do not offer the Scovill chambering your looking for
The 35 Whelen is not a safe round for the Turk 98's which are basically a 95 Mauser and best re-barreled in chamberings like the .250 Sav, 7x57, 257 Roberts, etc. we do not make any barrels for them in the 35 Whelen or other rounds that operate in a similar pressure area. The Turk 98's have been actually weaker then the Mex 95's at times.
Sorry we can not help you
Thanks for asking
Chris Murray

What I would like to know is what is the general opinion from anyone that knows the Turk mauser as to the strength and in regards to what Chris Murray at ER Shaw has told me.
I have now had the bolts turned and the actions D&T so do have an investment at this point. I do not want to produce anything unsafe so may have to re think the project.
BTW I had asked if they would cut the chambers using my 375 Scovill reamer and if not would they just rough the chamber using a 35 Whelen reamer thus the reference to the 35 Whelen.
OPINIONS PLEASE!!!!
BIC/BS

[Ben]

The next question is " Which Turk Mauser " are we talking about. There are several different designs ( models ) that have come into the States.

There are some that remind me in appearance to the 95 Mauser. I have 4 or 5 that have been built into fine custom rifles by my gunsmith in CO. The ones that I've selected are true 98' Mauser designs. I nor my gunsmith have any concerns about them holding any reasonable loads for the cartridges they are chambered in ( 30 -06 , 280 Rem., )

Ben

[Bullshop]

Ben
Sorry but I dont know enough about them to positively identify them. These roughly have an outside diameter of a large ring but the barrel shank of a small ring.
Is there any way I may describe them better?
By true 98 mauser design are you referring to the bolt having the third lug? In appearance these are 98 actions having the third locking lug and the 98 type bolt shroud.
BIC/BS

[bruce drake]

The older Turk Mausers were 93/95 Actions (They usually have the cutouts in the receivers for the old magazine cut-off levers). But anything built after 1898 were actual 98s. The Turks had clauses in their contracts with the Mauser Brothers in that if they developed an improved version of their action when the Mausers were producing rifles, they were required to change delivery to the new model at the direction of the Turks at the same price of the previous model. Very canny on their part.

If the 98 actions were Large Ring threaded you've got no issues with the Scovill cartridges.

If they are large ring actions but small ring threaded, I'd either recut the threads for LG Ring or leave alone and make them into 35 REM or 358 Win rifles.

http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/
They offer 35 Whelen and 35 Whelen Ackley Imp 40° reamers for sale

Cut the blank chambers yourself.

I have a feeling that ER Shaw doesn't want the liability of you putting a 375 Scovill through a older 95 small ring action.

Bruce

Bruce

[bruce drake]

The Turks also kept Small Ring threaded Large Ring Actions as well due to their having a large quantity of Small Ring threaded 95 barrels around at the time. Logistically and economically, it was smarter to use the stocks on-hand until they were expended before they moved to the Large Ring Large threaded actions.

That said, I have a Turk SR thread Large Ring Action Mauser that I've rebarreled to 308 Winchester that works just fine. Just consider it a Large Ring Mauser with a narrower threaded shank.

[mroliver77]

Dan,
Lots of info and knowledgeable guys here.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forums/85/t/The-Turkish-Mauser-Forum.html
Jay

[Bullshop]

One more question if I may. Will these actions that are large ring but having the small barrel shank diameter fit a stock for a 98 mauser? Will the hole spacing be the same?
BIC/BS

[TNsailorman]

About 10 years ago I bought a Turk large ring in excellent condition for $59.00with the intention of making a 6x55mm Swede mause out of it. After I got it, the thing was a small diameter barrel shank model. No problem, I bought a brand new 6.5x55mm barrel from Samco for $69.00 threaded and chamber for a Model 96 Swede and it went right on and turned out beautiful. It shot so well that I decided to put a nice stock on it and ordered a Bell and Carson 98 stock, one of the early ones that had a woodgrain finish to it with a machined aluminium bedding block. Believe it or not, I got the stock for $89.00, shipping and all. The stock was a drop in but I did some dialing in of the fit of the action and now I have a tack driver. I was so enthused with it that I did several other things, jeweled the bolt, put a nice bolt handle on it, a nice 3x9 Leupold scope, etc. Then put a nice blue job on the hold thing. I wish I could do pictures so I could send you a picture. Measure your receiver ring and that will tell you whether it is a 98 large ring or a 96 small ring. I never saw a 95 or 96 that had the third safety lug and I never saw a 98 that didn't have the third lug. The turks used them all without discrimination. I never really bought the saffety argument that the third safety lug was much of a safety need. The extra beef in the large ring was more of a safety feature to me. If those two big forward locking lugs fail, I don't see the third lug being much of a back up. Most of them don't bear against the rear recess anyway. My experience anyway, James

[bruce drake]

The Turk 98s are long actions. Easy to find replacement stocks compared to a Yugo 48.

[Bob S]

M1903 and M1905 Turks are intermediate length actions; "large ring", but "small ring" barrel shanks. The shank for the M1905 is a bastard ... it's a little longer than the normal small ring barrel shank.. Originally chambered for 7.65x53; rebarrelled to 7.92x57, and called "M1938". They take a stock like the FN 24 or Yugo 24/47. To further confuse matters, there are "M1938" Turks that were new-manufactured by the Turks, are large ring actions, again with small ring barrel shanks, but they are standard length actions, except that the receiver ring is longer than the Gew 98 because of the extended rabbet for the handguard: i.e., won't drop into a German Gew 98 stock. The Turks also converted some Imperial German Gew 98's to their "M1938" configuration. Externally, the receivers are the same as any Gew 98, and the barrels have the large ring threads, but they have two less threads than a standard Gew 98 because the Turks counterbored the front of the receiver ring to hold the handguard. These will drop into any '98 Mauser pattern stock. Is everybody confused yet???

Turk Mausers are like Forrest Gump's Box of Chocolates ... you never know what you're gonna get until you open it up. Apparently there were no words for "configuration management" in the old Turkish ordnance corps.

Resp'y,
Bob S.

[leadman]

I have a Turk that I had rebarreled to 6.5-06. Found out later not the best idea.

The bolt for this gun is longer than a standard '98 and does have the third locking lug. Can't remember were I got the info from but my rifle is supposedly a 1891 that was modified by the Turks with a different bolt, magazine, and machining of reciever for third lug. Could be a '95 for all I know.

The handguard/magazine is not as tall as a large ring '98 but did fit the original stock just fine. I changed it out for a taller one to fit the McMillan stock.

[jonk]

Short answer- if a 2 lug Mauser of 93 design, I wouldn't do it.

If a 3 lug Mauser it will handle the round just fine. The only issue is finding a barrel that fits the threads. And stock. Depending on what you have.

I suspect the guy who answered you didn't know the difference.

[StarMetal]

Short answer- if a 2 lug Mauser of 93 design, I wouldn't do it.

If a 3 lug Mauser it will handle the round just fine. The only issue is finding a barrel that fits the threads. And stock. Depending on what you have.

I suspect the guy who answered you didn't know the difference.

I know Chris at E.R. Shaw, believe me, he knows the difference. It was a smart move on his company's part....liability law suit.

You make it sound like the 98 Mauser's safely lug action is actually a 3 lug lock up, although I know you didn't mean it that way. It's the metallurgy and heat treating that decides the strength of the Mauser actions, not that safety lug. It's in my opinion if you blow the locking lugs on a Mauser your rifle is a goner and possibly thyself.

[Bullshop]

There is something else I do not understand. Why for instance would it be safe to chamber a 358 Win but not a 35 Whelen?
Some cartridges have been deemed safe like the 358 Win and some unsafe like the 35 Whelen. The only difference I see in the two cartridges is the length of the cartridges.
They are of the same head size and caliber and as far as I know work at the same pressure. Could someone please explain this to me?
BIC/BS

[StarMetal]

There is something else I do not understand. Why for instance would it be safe to chamber a 358 Win but not a 35 Whelen?
Some cartridges have been deemed safe like the 358 Win and some unsafe like the 35 Whelen. The only difference I see in the two cartridges is the length of the cartridges.
They are of the same head size and caliber and as far as I know work at the same pressure. Could someone please explain this to me?
BIC/BS

That's a good question Dan. To boot the 358 Win has less case to obturate to the chamber too, thus maybe little more bolt thrust if the case is oily. Does the 358 Win operate at a higher pressure then the 35 Whelen?

[doubs43]

The '95 does have a safety lug; it's at the bolt root and simply a turned up piece of metal that will indicate front lug set-back just as the safety lug on the '98 bolt does. They are calibrated to interfere with the bolt operation before the front lugs give way completely.

While I understand that Shaw's primary concern is safety and liability, the reply you were given implies that the Turk '98 actions are the same as the '95 action and that's incorrect. IMO a better answer would be that the quality of the Turk '98 actions is not consistent, making them suspect and thus not suitable for rebarreling to a high pressure cartridge.

[Multigunner]

While not as dramatic as the problem of the Low Number Springfield late War WW1 production GEW 98 Actions were not considered to be as strong as they should have been, and later production Model 98 actions generally used much stronger alloys.
The Germans were real bandits when it came to adapting the rifles of conquered neighbors to their uses, and often converted these to very close to K98 standards, but WW1 era GEW98 rifles were generally relegated to use as training rifles and seldom issued for combat use.
The chrome plated honor guard rifles, while functional were mainly intrended for firing blanks. These were usyually made from cut down Gew 98 rifles, the stocks reshaped to mimic the K98 rifles and puttied and painted over whith thick black paint to hide any damage.
I ran across one of those chromed rifles many years ago, but passed it up believing it had been plated and painted by someone who'd brought it back from the war. Just as well since after being used as a ceremonial blank firing rifle its bore was probably a mess.

The Spanish bought up Gew 98 rifles with corroded bores and relined them to 7mm. These are considered of suspect quality, since the relining method may allow rusting between liner and barrel steel.

I have an old reprint article on the poor quality of post WW1 German Mauser sporting rifles, rifles built on WW1 surplus actions not true Mauser company products. Those rifles were often built from unfinished actions from sub contractor sold as scrap after hostilities ended and finished out and heat treated by small gunmakers. The results were much like the Bannerman actions using scrap 1901 manufacture Springfield receivers, some were fine, others down right dangerous.
This sort of fly by night gunmaking venture hurt Mauser's reputation in the US, and no doubt US gunmakers played up any defects to smear all Mauser products when possible.

About twenty years ago a Gunsmith I knew showed me a unfinished Mauser receiver he'd bought. The receiver would require several further machining operations and heat treatment to finish. He bought a few of these intending to finish them out as single shot target actions, the magazine well had not been milled out at all at that stage of the manufacture.
I'm not sure where these came from. The unfinished receivers had a gold toned protective finish on them, possibly a paint to preserve them in storage while awaiting final finish maching.

[KCSO]

Any Tuk gun that couldd shoot the Turk ammo I have is a arn strong gun that 154 grain stuff is HOT. On Mauser actions sheer strength is one issue an the safety of the action is another. A M96 swee may be as SATRONG but isit as safe. eHass makes the point well in Bolt Action Rifles. If I want an action for a whoop it up ctg. I am going to fin the BEST I can get, especially if someone else is going to hol it close to their face.

As to the 358-35 Whelen the ifference there might be the was some foilks overloa the Whelen. I had one fellow bragging how his was more powerfull than a 375 H an H.

[Bullshop]

Thanks to all here but so far this is still as clear as mud for me.
The actions are out right now being D&T and the bolts are with The Bolt Man (TBM) being re done. BTW TBM does a real nice job on the bolt handles and at $35.00 which includes return shipping is very reasonable.
Would it help anything if I posted some pic's, dates, and some receiver dimensions?
BIC/BS

[Freightman]

Thanks to all here but so far this is still as clear as mud for me.
The actions are out right now being D&T and the bolts are with The Bolt Man (TBM) being re done. BTW TBM does a real nice job on the bolt handles and at $35.00 which includes return shipping is very reasonable.
Would it help anything if I posted some pic's, dates, and some receiver dimensions?
BIC/BS
Sure wouldn't hurt a picture is worth a 1000 words as the old saying goes.

[Gee_Wizz01]

Bullshop

Is there anything, crest, writing or date on the ring? I have seen the two M98 types described previously. I have one that is the intermediate style with the shorter action like the 24 or 47. It also had the "hump" on the rear receiver bridge right behind the charger cutout with charger lip on the bolt release/ejector box like and Argentine 1909. It also has a small notch cut in the rear of the receiver ring to clear the longer 7.9 X 57 rounds. These were converted from 7.65 Mauser to 7.9 X57 and my understanding is that they were manufactured at Oberndorf. The other type I had was looked like a standard M98 except the front of the receiver ring has a lip all the way around it to hold the rear handguard in place. These are large ring Mausers threaded for small ring barrel shanks. The ones I have seen are marked K.Kales . I used one to make a dandy 257 Roberts. Wish I still had it! Here is a site with a lot of info on converting Turks http://www.gswagner.com/

Hope this helps a little.

G

[Bullshop]

I dont have the actions in hand right now as I said they are out getting work done.
I think there was a crest and I think they had a ring at the front of the receiver for the hand guard but it has been milled off.
I do know for certain that they have the hump at the rear bridge behind the charger cut.
I know because it was an issue with the D&T.
I dont remember who I got them from here but I sure wish he would help out.
Maybe someone else remembers. He had a bunch for sale that he had done a little re shaping work on and had them bead blasted and in the white.
There were a couple other members that bought some also. I should have the receivers back in a couple weeks and Lord willing I will add more detail.
Thanks a bunch to all !
BIC/BS

[donnis]

Bullshop,

Looks like this was the thread:

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:z1DEFHrvsZUJ:castboolits.gunloads.c om/showthread.php%3Fp%3D789768+site:castboolits.gunlo ads.com+turk+mauser+action&cd=29&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I'm watching this thread with interest because I've got 4 turks waiting for me to work on them some day.

[Ben]

This is what I call my " Mauser - Field "

It is a 98' design Turk Mauser with SR threads that has a new 2 groove unfired 1903 - A3 barrel installed with threads turned to SR dimensions. All the metal work was done by Dr. Harold Tyus, in Golden , CO. He is an excellent gunsmith.

It is one of my favorite rifles !

I did all the stock work, glass bedding etc., rifle also has a 2 lb. Timmney Trigger :

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/Mauserfield/?action=view&current=b434167d.pbw

[docone31]

Get the Turk that is marked
K-Kale
That one I was told is the strong one.

[Ben]

Yes, mine is a K - Kale.

[mroliver77]

Ben you sure have some nice guns!
Mine is K Kale also and is stock. Like has been said, if the Turk ammo dont blow them up anything sane should be fine.
Jay

[flounderman]

I have been using the turk small thread, large ring 98 for years to build custom rifles with. the take off remington 700 barrel has enough meat you can thread for the turk under the remington threads. I bought a bunch of take offs, for 10.00. I have turks chambered in 7mm mag and about any other caliber you can name. it's a 98 with a thick receiver ring and a smaller barrel. same amount of metal around the case. you do run into different bolt lengths and have to be sure to keep them matched to the action they came with. I would buy another one or two if the price was right. I like the small threaded, large ring action. Daryl

[Bullshop]

I just got the actions back from being D&T and see they are K. Kale marked. So it looks like if they will get done in 375 Whelen I will have to buy contoured blanks and have someone thread and chamber them.
Thanks for all the help!
BIC/BS

[mroliver77]

Talk to Willbird on this forum. He does nice work. Not sure if he is available right now or not.
Jay

[sheepdog]

Sweet baby Jesus a 35 Whelan out of a turkish! If you want a grenade buy one, put that so called rifle down!

JKing! Turkish mausers are not k98 actions. The metalwork was questionable on maybe of them imho but they've been use, abused, and made into refuse. No way I'd trust that with so much pressure. On top of that alot of those have been "proofed" by people using surplus 8mm. Alot of that ammo is so bad it will void the warranty on new MG42 kits.

I would think if you're going to rebarrel a low end barrel you'd be better off with an argentine.