Problems today...help please....45 ACP

[steve in kc]

Here's my set up...I have a lee single stage press and carbide dies.
Previous to today, I had loaded up over 200 rounds with Missouri Bullet Co. boolits (230gr .452).

I switched to casting my own because of leading problems I was having with a hardness of 18BHN.

Had a great time smelting yesterday. Did a 1/4 bucket and got right at 26lbs. I made up some lyman #2 with the other ingredients I had and was casting pretty little round nose boolits in no time. I cast about 175 and had 160 smooth, shiny ones when I was done. Got them lubed...and here's where it all starts to fall to )(*&$_(*_+@)#_$%.

First, I was decapping around 200 rounds of brass when the friggin decapping pin broke. GRRRRRRRRR. Was tempted to go by a lyman universal at bass pro, but I live in the sticks and that's a 3hr round trip (including time in the store). So I figured I'd deal with what I had (175 rounds ready for primers).

So I got everything primed...

Then, I started loading up.

I get 20 rounds loaded up at 1.265" for COL, give 'em a little shine and they look almost too nice to shoot!

Then I get to round 21. Friggin' boolit gets stuck in the seating die! I get it out, figure it's a fluke, and rounds 22, 23 and 24 all mushroom out and won't seat worth a ****. After #24 got stuck in the die again, I figured I'd quit because obviously something isn't right.

So then, I take those 20 "good" rounds and load them up to do some cycle tests in my gun. First five cycle perfectly...and wouldn't you know it...the boolit on #6 gets a little hung up in the throat and CAME OUT OF THE BRASS. When I cycled the slide, gunpowder goes everywhere. Now I"m just steaming mad.

What in the hell went wrong?

I was thinking maybe the boolits are oversized, hence the mushrooming when seating, but they mike out between .4525 and .4531 The bore on my barrel is .4515

But if they were oversized, how is it that #24 could just slide out of the brass like that? With the MO boolits, I did not crimp and I didn't crimp these either. It's obvious that I'm going to have to crimp them some to keep them from coming out AND to keep them from being seated deeper from recoil.

No, I did not size these bullets in a sizer.
The lube I'm using is 1lb parrafin, 1lb petroleum jelly, 2TBS Marvel Mystery Oil
The bullets are from a Lee .452 230gr LRN mold (1 ogive)
brass is mixed headstamp, belled to the same amount that the MO boolits were.

Seating die had not seen any changes from the last batch to this one.

I'm stumped.

[That'll Do]

When you de-primed the brass, was it in a sizing & de-priming die, or was it just a universal de-primer?

Not trying to be smart with you, but just trying to understand the situation.

Also, did you bell (expand) the case mouth before seating your boolits? It almost sounds like you seating die was unknowingly adjusted, and now it's causing you trouble.

That's all I can come up with at the moment–but I'm sure we'll get you straightened out.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Is your mold the 452-228-1R? Or is it the TL452-230-2R?
With the 452-228-1R, you have to watch your seating depth closely. The ogive is really not the right shape for the .45 ACP; you have to seat it more deeply than the standard ball round or it will contact the lands, and/or cause mis-feeds because it hits the ramp too soon. However, you can't make the COL less than what's specified in the load data, either.

The TL452-230-2R you have to seat deeply enough so that the step is at most flush with the brass; but don't go below the COL.

Some questions that might seem silly, but I gotta ask...

What brass are you reloading? Are they all the same headstamp?

Did you check to make certain that the cases were all the same length?

Did you resize the cases and slightly bell the mouths?

Are you certain that the dies were snugged down so they wouldn't change on you?

I really don't care for either of those Lee .45 boolit designs. I have a mold my Granddad made that duplicates the military ball shape, and an antique Lyman #452460 200gr SWC that I've had good results with. The H&G #68 is a really great SWC, if you can find an original mold in good shape, or a true reproduction.

[steve in kc]

When you de-primed the brass, was it in a sizing & de-priming die, or was it just a universal de-primer?

Not trying to be smart with you, but just trying to understand the situation.

Also, did you bell (expand) the case mouth before seating your boolits? It almost sounds like you seating die was unknowingly adjusted, and now it's causing you trouble.

That's all I can come up with at the moment–but I'm sure we'll get you straightened out.

It was in the de-priming/sizing die.
No problems on being 'smart'.
yes, the cases were belled.

[steve in kc]

Is your mold the 452-228-1R? Or is it the TL452-230-2R?
With the 452-228-1R, you have to watch your seating depth closely. The ogive is really not the right shape for the .45 ACP; you have to seat it more deeply than the standard ball round or it will contact the lands, and/or cause mis-feeds because it hits the ramp too soon. However, you can't make the COL less than what's specified in the load data, either.

The TL452-230-2R you have to seat deeply enough so that the step is at most flush with the brass; but don't go below the COL.

Some questions that might seem silly, but I gotta ask...

What brass are you reloading? Are they all the same headstamp?

Did you check to make certain that the cases were all the same length?

Did you resize the cases and slightly bell the mouths?

Are you certain that the dies were snugged down so they wouldn't change on you?

I really don't care for either of those Lee .45 boolit designs. I have a mold my Granddad made that duplicates the military ball shape, and an antique Lyman #452460 200gr SWC that I've had good results with. The H&G #68 is a really great SWC, if you can find an original mold in good shape, or a true reproduction.

It's the 452-228-1R mold.
I don't follow what you you say about the ogive not being the right shape. It is almost identical to any 230gr FMJ I've loaded.
Also, the Missouri Bullet 230gr RN boolit is the same shape, only with a single lube groove instead of two. Those shot flawlessly (except for the leading) seated at 1.265"

[dubber123]

I shoot the 228 1R alot, close to 20,000 of them so far. The nose is "short" compared to a origional style ball bullet. You should be able to see, (or measure), where the full diameter of the boolit starts to taper down. You can't have much of this full diameter extending past the case mouth, or it may stick in the rifling at the front of the chamber. Also when seating, pay close attention to seating pressure. I have noticed some, (almost always RP cases, do not thave much neck tension on my reloads. If one seats easy, I press the boolit on the bench to make sure it won't push in. Most times it will, and these get shot in the revolver.

I think you got a case without much neck tension, and were seated too long, and got the boolit stuck in the rifling.

[steve in kc]

I shoot the 228 1R alot, close to 20,000 of them so far. The nose is "short" compared to a origional style ball bullet. You should be able to see, (or measure), where the full diameter of the boolit starts to taper down. You can't have much of this full diameter extending past the case mouth, or it may stick in the rifling at the front of the chamber. Also when seating, pay close attention to seating pressure. I have noticed some, (almost always RP cases, do not thave much neck tension on my reloads. If one seats easy, I press the boolit on the bench to make sure it won't push in. Most times it will, and these get shot in the revolver.

I think you got a case without much neck tension, and were seated too long, and got the boolit stuck in the rifling.

What is the reccomended seating depth using this boolit/mold and the following recipe?
4.5grains of red dot
CCI 300 LP Primers
Mixed headstamp brass

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

It's the 452-228-1R mold.
I don't follow what you you say about the ogive not being the right shape. It is almost identical to any 230gr FMJ I've loaded.
Also, the Missouri Bullet 230gr RN boolit is the same shape, only with a single lube groove instead of two. Those shot flawlessly (except for the leading) seated at 1.265"

Here is an image comparing a Lyman boolit (the standard mil ball profile) vs your Lee boolit:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=21164&stc=1&d=1269886418

Notice how the ogives are in fact shaped quite differently, and how much more quickly the Lee boolit reaches the OD. It's not a good thing to have your boolit jammed into the throat.

I will caution you against using mixed brass. Your results will vary widely. Case volume can vary considerably; Rem vs Win not so much, but CCI has quite a bit more volume than other brands due to the process used. Even mixing Rem and Win in the same batch is not a good idea; as you will get different neck tension on the boolits.

Consistency is everything. The more variables you can eliminate, the more reliable, accurate and SAFE that your reloads will be.

[dubber123]

What is the reccomended seating depth using this boolit/mold and the following recipe?
4.5grains of red dot
CCI 300 LP Primers
Mixed headstamp brass

A quick check of mine has them seated to 1.250" OAL, and this still has some full diameter band outside of the case. You may be able to seat longer, or may have to go shorter depending on how your particular mould casts.

Many shooters don't like this LEE design as the short OAL can cause problems with some guns. I like it myself.

[NickSS]

I think you have two things going on. The first is that with the soft lube you are using some is being squeezed up into your seating die and as it builds up it is grabbing your bullet. Second is that your lube being slipperier does not have as much neck tention and is being pulled out when your bullet sticks to the lube in your seating die. I have had similar problems with some bullet, lube and brass I have tried. Were I you I would check my brass I have found that some 45 acp brass in thinner than others and does not size down enough. Also setup your seating die to give a bit more crimp. This is easy just screw it in a bit more (like a quarter turn at a time till your bullets are held in place tightly. Bullet length and shoulder as noted in some other responses are important. The lee round nose is different then GI bullets and may require deeper seating. I have probably loaded over 100,000 45 acp with cast bullets and have seen the same problems.

[Echo]

Aggravating, ain't it!? +1 on the mixed brass. I would not be surprised if the cartridge that stuck the boolit in the barrel was made with R-P brass - I can't use R-P because of it's thinness being such that, with my die set, boolits don't have sufficient tension. I find I can mix my brass, as long as I don't have any GI cases in the mix, and don't use RR-P, but I am not loading for maximum accuracy. And some boolit-to-rifling contact is not a bad thing. The .45ACP needs that to cut out endplay.

Contrary to popular belief, the cartridge does NOT headspace on the mouth of the case. Check the length of a NEW case, versus the depth of the chamber, and you will find about .007 difference (or thereabouts). I load mine to have a few thousandths contact.

[35remington]

Steve, your problem is simply this:

Since this bullet (228-1R) is nonstandard, you cannot load it to standard lengths without the bullet engaging the rifling. Your bullet's too far out of the case, and the rifling is engaging the bullet. Shorten to 1.220" and try again. This is a length my 1911's accept, but should you have a short throated barrel, you may need to go as short as 1.200." Try at the longer length first.

Echo, the most common scenario with factory jacketed ammo is headspacing on the case mouth. For handloaders, the most common scenario is either headspacing on the bullet or headspacing on the case mouth.

Due to tolerances that show that the closest a 1911 extractor can hold a cartridge to the breechface and headspace it is about 0.040" (and many exceed this on the long side) it is much more common in 1911's to headspace on the case mouth or the bullet, depending upon factory or handloaded round. This distance exceeds that combination of even common short cases and longish chambers.

I killed the "1911's headspacing more often on the extractor" argument here a few months ago.

Ain't so. Glad to show you the link, if you are wondering.

[steve in kc]

Good info. And thank you all for the replies. I took a break from working today and it dawned on me what I had done.

I did NOT, in fact, bell the case mouths. DOH!

I deprimed/sized, re-primed, charged and when right on to seating.

Since discovering the error of my ways, I fixed all the screwed up rounds and loaded up 175 more.

I do see the difference, now, between the Lyman and Lee ogive. Makes sense, however, the LEE profile is not a problem with my pistol. At a COL of 1.265, they cycle and shoot just fine. I'm still in break-in mode with this gun as I'm just over 550 rounds through it. The first 150 were FMJ's, the rest have been reloads using this recipe, at this length, with only a slight deviation of .5grains more powder for about 100 rounds.

I appreciate all the insight and help.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Seems to me that your 4.5gr of red dot is a pretty stiff load. Better check with Alliant's recommendations.

With powders that fast, 0.5gr is a very significant increase. If you were loading, say, Varget in .30-06, 0.5gr would be a pretty normal increment to use. However, with pistol loads and really fast powder, that's a pretty big jump.

A typical load for bullseye shooters is 3.5gr Bullseye with a 200gr wadcutter. Red dot is almost as fast as Bullseye, you're dealing with a boolit that has to be seated deeper than a standard ball round, and you are using mixed brass.

With all of those variables, I suggest that you should stick to the suggested starting loads, and if you do work up, do so very slowly, with max increments of 0.2gr. Jumping up 0.5gr when you're already at 4.5gr just sounds a bit too risky for my tastes.

[dubber123]

Alliant lists 5.0 grains Red Dot as max with 230 gr. jacketed as standard pressure.

[Echo]

Echo, the most common scenario with factory jacketed ammo is headspacing on the case mouth. For handloaders, the most common scenario is either headspacing on the bullet or headspacing on the case mouth.

Due to tolerances that show that the closest a 1911 extractor can hold a cartridge to the breechface and headspace it is about 0.040" (and many exceed this on the long side) it is much more common in 1911's to headspace on the case mouth or the bullet, depending upon factory or handloaded round. This distance exceeds that combination of even common short cases and longish chambers.

I killed the "1911's headspacing more often on the extractor" argument here a few months ago.

Ain't so. Glad to show you the link, if you are wondering.

I've measured too many times to go back and do it again. The chamber is longer than factory-new brass - therefore, it can't headspace on the mouth.

And I said nothing about headspacing on the extractor.

[35remington]

4.5 Red Dot and a 228-1R seated out that far will approximate a factory load in velocity. Exact velocity will depend on bullet seating depth, but such a load is standard for me in 1911's.

If the bullet was pulled out of the case at 1.265" as you first mentioned, the rifling "bit" into the bullet on chamering and pulled it when the cartridge was withdrawn. Check by loading a dummy round with no powder or primer to 1.265", chamber it and then try to eject it by hand. If it "catches" or resists ejection it's too long.

Echo, chamber length and case length differences do not preclude proper headspacing on the case mouth. They facilitate proper functioning when so dimensioned.

The case can be shorter than the chamber and still headspace on the mouth, and in fact most jacketed factory loads do just that. In fact, all cases for all calibers are shorter than the chamber headspace measurement, and they still headspace like they're supposed to.

The factory jacketed ACP ammo is seated such that that the bullet does not interfere with even short throats, and does indeed headspace on the case mouth, even if the case is shorter than the chamber.

Kinda curious to understand why you are thinking a short case cannot headspace on the case mouth? The firing pin protrudes a considerable distance from the breech in most pistols, and being a little short doesn't preclude proper headspacing and function.

Heck, most cases darn well better be shorter than the chamber, or things wouldn't work. A short case will headspace properly on the case mouth. This is as intended by the manufacturers.

Should you doubt, take your case that's shorter than the chamber, size, prime with no powder and bullet, chamber it and pull the trigger.

The "pop" of the primer will show the "too short" case just headspaced on the case mouth successfully.

[steve in kc]

4.5 Red Dot and a 228-1R seated out that far will approximate a factory load in velocity. Exact velocity will depend on bullet seating depth, but such a load is standard for me in 1911's.

If the bullet was pulled out of the case at 1.265" as you first mentioned, the rifling "bit" into the bullet on chamering and pulled it when the cartridge was withdrawn. Check by loading a dummy round with no powder or primer to 1.265", chamber it and then try to eject it by hand. If it "catches" or resists ejection it's too long.

Echo, chamber length and case length differences do not preclude proper headspacing on the case mouth. They facilitate proper functioning when so dimensioned.

The case can be shorter than the chamber and still headspace on the mouth, and in fact most jacketed factory loads do just that. In fact, all cases for all calibers are shorter than the chamber headspace measurement, and they still headspace like they're supposed to.

The factory jacketed ACP ammo is seated such that that the bullet does not interfere with even short throats, and does indeed headspace on the case mouth, even if the case is shorter than the chamber.

Kinda curious to understand why you are thinking a short case cannot headspace on the case mouth? The firing pin protrudes a considerable distance from the breech in most pistols, and being a little short doesn't preclude proper headspacing and function.

Heck, most cases darn well better be shorter than the chamber, or things wouldn't work. A short case will headspace properly on the case mouth. This is as intended by the manufacturers.

Should you doubt, take your case that's shorter than the chamber, size, prime with no powder and bullet, chamber it and pull the trigger.

The "pop" of the primer will show the "too short" case just headspaced on the case mouth successfully.

In the rounds I've loaded up since the 'ah ha moment' are now 1.255" COL. 1.265 was catching when cycling by hand. 1.255 cycles just right. :D

[Echo]

Echo, chamber length and case length differences do not preclude proper headspacing on the case mouth. They facilitate proper functioning when so dimensioned.

The case can be shorter than the chamber and still headspace on the mouth, and in fact most jacketed factory loads do just that. In fact, all cases for all calibers are shorter than the chamber headspace measurement, and they still headspace like they're supposed to.

The factory jacketed ACP ammo is seated such that that the bullet does not interfere with even short throats, and does indeed headspace on the case mouth, even if the case is shorter than the chamber.

Kinda curious to understand why you are thinking a short case cannot headspace on the case mouth? The firing pin protrudes a considerable distance from the breech in most pistols, and being a little short doesn't preclude proper headspacing and function.

Heck, most cases darn well better be shorter than the chamber, or things wouldn't work. A short case will headspace properly on the case mouth. This is as intended by the manufacturers.

Should you doubt, take your case that's shorter than the chamber, size, prime with no powder and bullet, chamber it and pull the trigger.

The "pop" of the primer will show the "too short" case just headspaced on the case mouth successfully.

I see now. The firing pin forces the case forward until the case mouth strikes the front of the chamber. So the case headspaces between the firing pin and the front of the chamber. Is that about it?

[35remington]

Yep, you got it. It's true for all firearms of any kind. There's always some slack, and the case moves forward until it abuts the headspacing surface and resists the firing pin's blow.

[spqrzilla]

Or the case "headspaces" on the extractor ...

[35remington]

That doesn't happen often in a 1911.

[462]

"So then, I take those 20 "good" rounds and load them up to do some cycle tests in my gun. First five cycle perfectly...and wouldn't you know it...the boolit on #6 gets a little hung up in the throat and CAME OUT OF THE BRASS. When I cycled the slide, gunpowder goes everywhere. Now I"m just steaming mad."

This is very scary. Always use dummy rounds -- no primer, no powder -- to test for feeding and functioning, over all length, etc. Never live rounds!