Pistol Brass: Neck Tension or Crimp?

[Bass Ackward]

Well .... since this has been a heated topic I decided to ask myself ....why? And I have been forced to compromise my pride a little bit to do something I swore I would never do. And that is anneal pistol brass. Since you have no barrel length for harmonics and no bedding issues, I have always believed that a hangun is about ignition, ignition, ignition. Well .... that was wrong. Now my belief is that it is about ignition and sealing.

Sealing is what happens when neck tension or crimp or both are strong enough to hold the bullet until pressure gets high enough to force the brass out to the chamber wall and seal before the bullet strats to move or the chamber leaks and you get dirty chambers. Well, the guys that are going balls to the wall have brass made to accomodate that and all they need do is maintain neck tension and crimp.

But if you are trying to load something other than this level, your brass is too hard no matter how your neck tension is set up. If you need 24,000 psi before the bullet leaves the case and you are shooting a soft, PB bullet that craps at 18,000psi, then you need brass that will perform at a far lower pressure to get the seal for that bullet or mix. Different chamber dimensions also cause seal problems and can be that one chamber that throws a bullet everytime. I always thought mis-alignment. I saw this eliminated. In fact, I am more likely to believe that you have a seal problem on a chamber now than an alignment issue. And this is why most guns perform right on the top and have to have a hard bullet. Because that is where the brass thickness manufactured for that caliber is designed to perform. Period.

I chose a load of 8.5 grains of Unique which is a fairly classic charge for 44 Mag with a 240 grain bullet. This load in my line bored, tight chambered gun was about 1". In two Redhawks it was 2 1/2" almost 4 with flier. I annealed and now both Redhawks shoot round 1 3/4" groups with no flier. But One Redhawk took 7 seconds of anneal to get to that level. Now someone else might have just went up to 10 grains until they got a seal and produced the same accuracy. If they had that option with a harder bullet to take the higher pressure.

The problems with heat treating are many. How to set up a consistent heat sourse from anneal job to anneal job. You then have to mark and set that brass aside for only that pressure range when you are done because soft brass will stick at much lower pressures. In 357 you simply would use 38 brass. In a 454 Casul, use 45 Colt brass. Thin brass has options that you can load up or down. But thin brass stretches at higher pressures. So there is no free lunch. And I did ruin brass for anything over 10,000 psi in the process trying to see how far I could go. Part of the price.

So you have to start slow or low heat or light anneal and work down. Pick out 6 cases and load six at a time and heat treat a little more each time until you get to that level that you seal for that load. And watch the load come in. It may just take your mind completly off neck tension AND crimp.

[felix]

Very, very good, BA! A much appreciated experiment. Maybe some bright young one can come up with a new brass formula having different colors so we can tell the intended pressure range of a particular "lot". ... felix

[45 2.1]

John-
Your missing a good thing, try freechecking. It will open up something you haven't seen yet.

[StarMetal]

Gosh, I annealed my 45 Colt brass years ago. Never thought about it.

Felix, I had the formula's for mixing ingredients to color brass, but lost them, if that's what you are talking about to have different color brass. For annealing there are markers that you can mark the brass with and heat till that mark turns a certain color to get an even range of anneal.

John, maybe the reason my Model 25 shoots so good is my annealed Winchester brass.

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

John-
Your missing a good thing, try freechecking. It will open up something you haven't seen yet.


Bob,

I can certainly see the merits of free checking. And I probably need to get around to it. My problem is .... projects. And my ability these days is one at a time. So I will get around to free checks here. It's comming.

But I have a curiousity as to why some folks can form strong opinions about one particular technique to the point that they believe that it is the key to life itself. Whether that is choking, or seating into the lands, or weighing bullets or neck tension. And what does a guy do that has dies that doesn't produce neck tension? Is he up a creek without a paddle? Then there is my dies that produce tension on top of tension and it's no panacea for me by any means.

It all comes down to solving a particular problem with how that reloader is choosing to operate. Take seating into the lands. If you aren't running slower powders and having ignition problems, then seating into the lands might not mean very much to you or could even be detrimental. Especially if you are choking already.

Now I know that you understand this. And .... my problem is that I understood it at one time. Maybe twice. Today, I just need to be .... refreshed from time to time. And I am trying to get others to look at .... possibilities as well.


Joe,

Well it could be. I just picked a load out of the air that has a reputation for doing well. Then I wondered why some guys need 9 to 10 grains. Then I thought about the guys that said they like new brass for only about 5 firings and then they get new. I tried to hit this with different kinds of brass, but in truth, they are all made to handle and operste at a certain pressure. If you want to operate in other areas and don't have a custom gun, then what do you do. But it could have helped you with your 45. Who knows? Ever try any new brass or is this sentimental brass handed down by your grandfather or something? :grin: That should tell you something.

Felix, color coded brass. Or better yet, designer brass. I like it. Want 44 Special performance, get softer 44Mag brass. Or call it cast bullet brass.

[45 2.1]

Now I know that you understand this. And .... my problem is that I understood it at one time. Maybe twice. Today, I just need to be .... refreshed from time to time. And I am trying to get others to look at .... possibilities as well.


Just as I am trying to get you to see the root of the problems you write about.

[44man]

Well, bass you are only getting away with annealed brass in a revolver because of the light loads. Step those up to a hunting load with 296 or so and you will have one sorry mess on your hands when all the boolits pull and jam up the gun. Just try to remove a cylinder when you have five boolits locking things up.
This is why neck tension is used and why the tension has to be the same case to case. Yes, you are evening it out by annealing but they will NOT hold a boolit under heavy recoil. Been there, done that!
Crimp will not solve the problem either and only has a limited effect on powder burn when all else is correct. The only crimp that can have any effect on burn is the one used on factory .454 cases. It looks like it is rolled into the bullet. It also shortens case life.
I suggest that if you load hot for a silhouette shoot, you leave the annealed brass home.

[Bass Ackward]

Well, bass you are only getting away with annealed brass in a revolver because of the light loads. Step those up to a hunting load with 296 or so and you will have one sorry mess on your hands when all the boolits pull and jam up the gun. Yes, you are evening it out by annealing but they will NOT hold a boolit under heavy recoil. Been there, done that!


44man,

You missed the whole gist of my test. This WAS about reduced loads.

This was about why one guy can get away with 8.5 grains of Unique and another guy requires up to 10 to get comparable accuracy. It appears that you can tune a load by annealing for pretty much any pressure level under the sun below factory specs and it appears that you are better off if you do as long as you don't go over board.

Hunting and Silhouette rounds? Funniest reality check that my dad once gave me in my power mad days was that the origional Silhouette shoots were with 250 grains of lead at 800 fps out to four hundred yards. The prize was survival. Anything over that weight / velocity / vintage of sighting system he said was cheating. :grin:

And one of these days you are going to learn that you can shoot full power loads with zero neck tension and zero crimp and never lock up a handgun. Never. Just use larger than throat diameter bullets. One gentleman that I ran into (can't recall his name) claimed that he was an Ohio State IHMSA Champ too and he shot this way using 30 BHN bullets at .439 diameter (biggest that would freely chamber) from his Super Redhawk with .432 throats. I saw him shoot 4" groups at 200 on a couple of ocassions. Sad because he was kind enough to make me .433 and .435 H&I dies in the late 80s when I had no way to do this myself. I have shot .435 in .433 throats using 4227 quite well at one time. I just have little use for full power any more.

[44man]

OK, gotcha. But my boolits won't work if they were larger in diameter because they are so long they have to enter the throats. I will not set them back into the case and lose powder space and increase pressure.

[klausg]

45 2.1, or anyone else- For the uninitiated could you describe "freechecking"? I hope this isn't a really dumb question, but I've never heard of it. Thanks

-Klaus

[45 2.1]

45 2.1, or anyone else- For the uninitiated could you describe "freechecking"? I hope this isn't a really dumb question, but I've never heard of it. Thanks

-Klaus

A freecheck is an aluminum "disc"/gascheck that is swaged on the base of a plain base boolit during sizing/lubeing. Fairly easy to do with a normal lubrisizer if you have the modified "H" die.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Good stuff! Very interesting, I've anneled a lot of rifle brass never thought to try it on pistol brass.
Interesting results.

[felix]

BB, it is not worth it because there is no good heat sink. Ideally, you can't let the bottom half of the case get hotter than 150 degrees or so, maximum 200. You can use Joe's technique with that speciallized magic marker if you really want to do an anneal job. It would be much mo' betta' to use a thick copper plate solid wheel and drill 50 holes around the circumferance having the ID equal to a fully resized case with a slight hammer-in fit. Rotate the wheel with the torch pointing at outside of the cases and watch the magic marker change at 300 or so. Drop the whole wheel into a pan of cold water to stop the progression of heat down past the cyinder openings. ... felix

[Buckshot]

...............Well ole BA done annealed some peestola cases (I 'd guess from his report) and without hearing how he did so let me gently suggest The old time tested means used by some with longish rifle cases. That is to stand them in water. Further, if you hit the casemouths with a substantial amount of heat, like right NOW............ you'd anneal that area very rapidly due to the fact that the case doesn't have a lot of mass to absorb and transfer heat much of anywhere in a hurry.

Or at least not so fast as you could heat the mouth to a dead yellow and have the blue heat line maybe a quarter inch away? So you get on it and get off it then flick the case over into the water.

Something further to think about, which really might have no real effect is the powder's burn rate. It could very well be that with a soft casemouth, and brass a bit softer a bit lower, that a person might have to drop to a faster easier to ignite or more energetic powder? After all, if the casemouth is much softer and more likely to expand easily it MIGHT be a consideration?

This may happen in a rifle too, but there are mitigating situations such as the length of the barrel and the fact that there is no gap between cylinder and barrel where pressure is unquestionably lost. Then again the effect may not even be noticeable?

I know that rifle benchrest shooters who anneal may reload and fire the fresh cases a number of times in an old barrel before a certain number of firings in their match rifles necause annealing DOES have an effect when using rifles capable of the accuracy the serious guys are shooting.

.................Buckshot

[robertbank]

Sorry guys I got a bad case of the dizzy spells half way through the first post. I anneal ,38spl cases to fire form them into .41LC cases. I know you guys are on a different level but I apply propane torch until case is not quite cherry red - kinda brownish blueish in colour. Drop them into water. Done.

Cases work fine in the old Colt which is a low pressure round for sure. Moving to Black Powder loads in the old gun.

I use an old set of lineman pliars drilled out to about .387 to crimp my heel based bullets.

Take Care

[Bass Ackward]

Richard,

I have a case annealing kit from Hornady. This is made up of three different size case holders that are made out of thick aluminum and have a steel base the proper size and shape to fit a power screw driver. The heat sourse is a standard propane tourch. The case sticks above the holder by about 1/4 where it is exposed to the heat while rotating. Notice I didn't say flame. I place this on my bench so that I can keep the distance the same and watch a clock so that the time is the same. After that time, the cases along with the aluminum holder are douced in water and the case falls free so that everything starts from the same temperature. The aluminum and remaining water in the holder keep heat from areas of the case that you don't want it.

Works pretty slick for keeping a nice even heat treat that I have not been able to find with any other system save molten lead. The secret is speed to the water sourse.

[Bass Ackward]

More tests today and the results were fairly surprising.

This time I used a load that has been fairly accurate for me. At 25 yards it averages about 1 1/2". So out to 100 yards I went with the target being a 9" plastic dinner plate. The load was 15.4 grains of 2400, with a 14 BHN, MM285 grain Keith PB that was designed by Drew (Mstgysgt), ignited by a WLP primer in Hornady cases that have been fired 28 times. Quickload predicted velocity is 1210 fps. This is a higher pressure load than the 8.5 grains of Unique test which Quickload predicted at 16,200 psi. This load is a 28,000 psi load. This load should have been high enough for standard factory annealed brass and I expected to see little group difference as a result.

My first group was using the brass for the 29th time. I registered 3 hits on the pie plate and the total group was just over 7". The chambers got dirty so I cleaned them after each cylinder. AV was 1148 with a ES of 42. (added note: After checking the brass for this test, I lost two to splits which may have magnified the group size somewhat.)

The next group was using 3 seconds of my annealing system. All rounds hit the pie plate at exactly 4" C- C. AV was 1172 with an ES of 26. Slight sooting of the chambers.

Then came 5 seconds of anneal and the group measured 2 5/8" C to C. Extraction was still perfect. AV was 1196 with an ES of 19. Chambers remained clean and appeared unfired.

And then 10 seconds of anneal at just under 2" C to C. The cases had to be removed with a dowel rod. AV was 1233 with an ES of 6.

I find this very interesting because the improvement is rather dramatic for a 28,000 psi load. The extraction on the 10 second batch was really farther than I wanted to go, but I wanted to see what happened to extraction. I .... guess that I am gaining a new respect for annealing my pistol brass.

My next test is for 35,000 psi with these same cases (minus the 10 second batch) to see where my brass will be "ruined" for maximum pressure use.

On a negative note, I have learned that I have @ 1" of parallex in my red dot scope at 100 yards which probably skewed these results. But that 2' group at 100 yards is the best I have done in at least 20 years!

[Bass Ackward]

I just finished cleaning my Redhawk used for these tests. One surprise has been the lack of leading on this test with this bullet.

A little history. Drew designed this MM 285 gr bullet. He believed that the design was flawed in that the bullet did not carry enough lube. This is because, although he could shoot this in his Smith without a trace of leading, his fire lapped Blackhawk would lead the last inch or so of the barrel in a light wash. I wanted to test this for myself, so I purchased the mold. Sure enough, leading happened with both of my Redhawks with the last almost 2" receiving the light wash. And mine are fire lapped too. That is until today. My Smith and my rifles were OK with no leading at significantly faster velocities with this same load out of the rifles.

Today, with everything being the same from the same batch of bullets to the diameter and no other variables, after those annealed cases were fired, there isn't a trace of leading. Not even flakes. Zip. Zero. Nada. I hope Drew jumps in here because I would like to ask him if there is an appreciable difference in the size of his chambers between his Smith and his Ruger. I know that ammo neck sized for my Redhawks won't even begin to chamber in my Smith.

I will leave it for others to theorize "WHY" softer brass prevented leading. But the results were the same when I tested the PSB in these same cases. The PSB must have expanded the "hard" brass better than without is the only thing I can figure.

Any other ideas why?

[44man]

Bass, I have to ask how your red dot has parallax unless it has magnification? What brand is it? None have parallax to my knowledge. One of the features of them is you can look at any angle and as long as you can see the dot, it will hit where you aim.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I have to ask how your red dot has parallax unless it has magnification? What brand is it? None have parallax to my knowledge. One of the features of them is you can look at any angle and as long as you can see the dot, it will hit where you aim.


44man,

Well this is a $200 Sightron. It isn't supposed to have any magnification. And for how small those plates look, .... I'd .... say it doesn't. :grin: It has 4 different recticles that you can select without moving POI. (Tested) The dots cover 1", 2" 4" or 8" at 100 yards. The cross hair with a smallest dot in the center is excellent on rifles for this purpose and also maybe why I see the parallax. Never noticed it at less range either. I had this laying around having bought it for my wife who .... I found out prefers magnification with her Red Dot. (Burris)

I wonder if it could be the brightness of the dot? I just put in a new battery and it was a bright (scorcher) day, so I had it turned up.

P.S. I now see why you took the stance about 50 yards being a minimum for testing with the scope. 25 or 30 yards just doesn't tell you much. But take that sucker off and the perspective changes some. :grin:

[Bass Ackward]

Sorry guys I got a bad case of the dizzy spells half way through the first post.

I anneal ,38spl cases to fire form them into .41LC cases.

I use an old set of lineman pliars drilled out to about .387 to crimp my heel based bullets.

Take Care

Robert,

Dizzy spell? Welcome to my world.

Missed this the first time. How far do you need to expand 38 special brass to accept the heel?

Annealing was always thought to be .... a PIA for the purpose of extending brass life. Pistol cases .... just .... aren't THAT expensive in my mind. I guess that I forgot how a "controlled" anneal could work. It was the big discussion we had about 44 Specials superiority over 44 Mags and my own filler tests that made me consider the idea again. Then I remembered I had a M15 Smith back in the 60s with larger than normal chambers. I cut off 357 Mag brass to fill the chamber space with a loaded round. This was a disaster until I annealed it because the brass was too thick and too hard for 38 Special pressures. But once annealed, it could do no wrong in that gun.

Just thought you might want to know in case that idea helped you in anyway.

[44man]

Yeah, Bass, I got into the longer range testing back in 1957 or 58 when I found I could hit pretty small targets at 200 yd's with open sights. (had great eyes back then.) Shooting at close range never showed any difference in accuracy when I was working loads or testing boolits. With the great eyesight I once had, I could even shoot 100 yd's for groups.
Turning up the dot does give a lot of problems and I prefer to shoot when cloudy or in the woods where it's shady. I now need to wear my glasses with them, that dot looks like a double star now, can't tell which part or dot to aim with. I wish someone would make a focusing red dot scope.

[robertbank]

To anneal my cases I hold them with a pair of pliars and heat the tip until it turns brownish just before red. I just drop them into a pail of water.

To form the cases I ru n then into my resizing die down about 1/2" to allow for the seating of the bullet. I then lube the cases and load them up. When they come our of the gun they look like inverted milk bottles. On 2nd loading I just load them like you would any other case.

Seems to work for me. I don't shoot the gun a lot so the slow process becomes part of the experience.

Take Care

Bob

[utk]

Yeah, Bass, I got into the longer range testing back in 1957 or 58 when I found I could hit pretty small targets at 200 yd's with open sights. (had great eyes back then.) Shooting at close range never showed any difference in accuracy when I was working loads or testing boolits. With the great eyesight I once had, I could even shoot 100 yd's for groups.
Turning up the dot does give a lot of problems and I prefer to shoot when cloudy or in the woods where it's shady. I now need to wear my glasses with them, that dot looks like a double star now, can't tell which part or dot to aim with. I wish someone would make a focusing red dot scope.

Someone told me that the "irregular dot" was because my glasses didn't quite compensate the errors in my own eyes.

[fecmech]

This might help to explain dot sight paralax. See this link http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm Put the gun in a drill vise or set it up unmoveable on a bench and move your head around after you put the dot on a target. You will see some paralax, some dot sights can be really bad. I find for precision shooting I center on a black target with the dot as dim as possible, so I can almost look thru it. Nick

[Bass Ackward]

This might help to explain dot sight paralax. See this link http://www.bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm


Very educational article Nick. Thanks.

[44man]

Must be why my .475 shoots so good, I have the Ultra Dot on it.

[Bass Ackward]

To rap this up, the amount of anneal required appears to be directly proportional to the size of the revolver chambers. For the Redhawk, the cases for both the 3 and 5 second annealings were OK with 35K-36K loads. But they would have been fine with factory annealed brass too at those pressure levels. My Smith on the other hand, that has smaller chambers, could only take this load with the 3 second annealed cases without getting sticky.

So I would finish by saying that anneal is another tool in the war on group sizes and a secret to low pressure loads especially with PB bullets. For some folks this probably isn't worth the effort. I can't even promise how long I will stick with the technique. But it definately will add life to older brass that would have been tossed as a side benifit anyway.

[MGySgt]

Bass - Sorry I am late on jumping in to this (you invited me remember). You found pretty much the same as I did - larger chambers with that bullet caused leading. Before I sent that mold to you I cast up about 1k worth. I have been shooting them with different lubs trying to get no leading im my SBH. Never happened with Star line brass at any velocity.

Most of us are aware that Star Line brass is the thickest brass on the market (at least it was the last I checked). Thick brass = high chamber presure to get a good seal and there is no way with Star Line that I could get the power I wanted (about 3/4's) with good accuracy.

I dug out some old WW brass that had a LOT of loadings in, but had been annealed every 10 loadings. Well, with the mid range loads accuracy went up, but the last inch of barrel leading stayed the same.

Now I want to try that Group Buy 44 that I couldn't get any decent accurary out of at any velocity. I think with this WW brass that is softer, I can get the lower chamber pressure to work with acceptable accuracy.

I am waiting on Dan to start up again and I am going to order another mold almost like the one I sold you with just a little bit more lude. That is still the best all around shooting bullet I ever had for the SBH. But it has a thick base, middle driving band and a .09 front brand.

Drew

[Bass Ackward]

Instead of starting a new theread where some people may not understand what went on or actually want to follow along, this turned out to be an on going experiment with annealing cases.

Since this was first started, these cases have been fired and reloaded 17 more times. What I am seeing has been educational to me.

It appears that the age of the brass has more to do with hardening, and the rate of hardening, than does working the brass from reloading. All reloading was done in the same dies, firing the same load, in the same gun etc.

After the first anneal that prompted this thread, I got exactly 6 firings before my light load started to dirty up the cases / chambers again. They were fired 2 more times before accuracy was terrible again and right back where I started that prompted this experiment. So I ran the same anneal test as the first post as close as I could. And 8 seconds was needed again, with the method I used, to get back to a good chamber sealing situation.

But .... it didn't last as long. This time I only got 4 firings before I started to notice seal problems and slight accuracy loss. One more time convinced me I needed to anneal these cases again or chuck them. So I decided then to continue the experiment and repost these findings.

So I annealed for 8 seconds yet again. This time I am seeing the same problem after 3 firings.

This method of anneal is very consistent so that can't be blamed. These cases have 52 firings on them now, and may need to be retired. So apparently the length that annealing lasts, is directly related to the age of the brass. I wish I had set aside 6 cases from the first annealing process and see how long they lasted to say this for sure. But this is the most firings I have ever attempted to get from ANY brass without losing any more to neck splits.

So there is what I suspect is the final report. I am too lazy to keep annealing brass this often if I don't have to. I will break down and buy some new brass, but the experience has been educational both from an accuracy standpopint as well as longevity.