Mondragón Rifle

[Four Fingers of Death]

Has anyone ever seen or used one of these?

I had never heard of them, but was surfing away and came across Wikipedia's list of WW1 Infantry weapons. This was shown as part of the German armoury. They were also used at Stalingrad because it functioned well in the sub zero temperatures (strange for a Mexican developed and manafactured weapon). They were also very accurate it seems and were sc oped and used as a sniper rifle. I have had an ongoing interest in military and other guns and while I haven't studied this in depth, I am amazed that there was a very useful rifle in use that I had never heard about.

Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_rifle

[NickSS]

I had heard of themand seen pictures but have never actually seen one where I could touch it. My understanding was that they were good serviceable rifles that worked fairly well except in the mud of WWI but then just about every rifle used had trouble with that. Even the ever reliable Enfield had snap on cloth covers to keep the rifles clean except when actually being used.

[Multigunner]

I've read that the Germans bought up a lot of these for use by aircraft observers before machineguns were adapted for aerial use.

[slowlead]

I have one from my dad that i havn't shot since 1974. My example is in good condition except for some outside rust pitting for the first 6-7 inches of the muzzle. The inside of the barrel is still perfect. When i showed it to a older guy from WW2 he said it may have been shoved in the ground to mark a grave. Out of approximately 160 rounds i fired it cycled perfectly with no failures to fire and gave about 2-4 inch groups with iron sights at 100 yards. It is a 7mm mauser caliber made in Switzerland (Sig marks) and the machining is amazingly complicated and extremely fine finished. It reminds me of a Swiss straight pull a lot and the semi auto function can be disconnected and it will operate in straight pull manual mode. The bottom line is when i took it apart to clean and saw all those intricate parts i realized that if i contiued to shoot it something would break and i would not be able to get parts. Its a treasured momento from my dad. They are probally worth a lot of money now.
I just looked at the wikipedia link and i do not believe some of the info. They were not mass produced (Germany got less than 2,000 in WW1) and they were probally not accurate enough to snipe with. I do not think they were used by germans in ww2 at stalingrad or by the commy chinese either. The action is just too complicated to maintain in the field. Hope this helps, Tom

[Four Fingers of Death]

Yours is a semi auto, is that what you are saying? I thought they were supposed to be full autos which could be fired single shot as a straight pull.

[Multigunner]

I have one from my dad that i havn't shot since 1974. My example is in good condition except for some outside rust pitting for the first 6-7 inches of the muzzle. The inside of the barrel is still perfect. When i showed it to a older guy from WW2 he said it may have been shoved in the ground to mark a grave. Out of approximately 160 rounds i fired it cycled perfectly with no failures to fire and gave about 2-4 inch groups with iron sights at 100 yards. It is a 7mm mauser caliber made in Switzerland (Sig marks) and the machining is amazingly complicated and extremely fine finished. It reminds me of a Swiss straight pull a lot and the semi auto function can be disconnected and it will operate in straight pull manual mode. The bottom line is when i took it apart to clean and saw all those intricate parts i realized that if i contiued to shoot it something would break and i would not be able to get parts. Its a treasured momento from my dad. They are probally worth a lot of money now.
I just looked at the wikipedia link and i do not believe some of the info. They were not mass produced (Germany got less than 2,000 in WW1) and they were probally not accurate enough to snipe with. I do not think they were used by germans in ww2 at stalingrad or by the commy chinese either. The action is just too complicated to maintain in the field. Hope this helps, Tom

I had also never heard of any WW2 use of these rifles, but in those days anything that would still shoot was issued when necessary, and even a few hundred rifles in stores might have been rushed to the front.
The Germans used many captured Soviet semi auto rifles to counter their effective use by the Soviets, and also issued captured Browning automatic rifles and the Polish built clones.
Between wars the Italians were hawking various semi auto rifle designs, these never very reliable. I have seen a early WW2 film clip of a Japanese rifleman firing what may be one of the Italian semi auto rifles, possibly captured from the Chinese. I've also seen a photo of a North African warlord whose body guards carried the Italian semi autos, possibly captured from the Italians but more likely purchased as a commercial venture.

The Mondragon was available as a sporting rifle in .30-30 caliber, but very few were made, possibly only prototypes. I had an old magazine with a photo spread on the Mondragon, the .30-30 was among the few closeups, engraved IIRC. The rifle was available in straightpull only as well as the semi auto/straightpull.

There was a French semi auto of WW1 that closely resembled the Mondragon, these were at one time sold in the US by Bannerman, the gas system disabled for straighpull use only. Could be that a few of these were mistaken for the Mondragon or old photos mislabeled.

This sort of limited issue semi auto rifle has been mostly overlooked by historians, because so little hard evidence is available, seldom more than a few scattered references and occasional glimpses in film clips.
They probably were no more than a tiny fraction of one percent of the rifles used in WW2, overshadowed by far more numerous and successful rifle types.

The French semi auto rifles of the same era did not hold up well due to the lack of suitable stainless steel alloys for the piston. The design was good but the metalurgy wasn't up to par.
So you are probably doing the right thing by not firing the rifle much if any, should the piston degrade you aren't likely to find a replacement at this late date.


PS
While not a sniper rifle per se the WW1 tactics for use of semi auto rifles by the French, and likely the Germans as well, was to deploy these in much the same manner as the BAR would be later on. A designated marksman would use the rapid aimed fire to supress sniper positions and crew served weapons, while infantry advanced.

Also I just remembered that a company history of Pratt&Whitney that I ran across awhile back said that around 1911-1912 while building the first machinery for the Lithgow factory to produce the Enfield rifles the company was also engaged in manufacturing an autoloading rifle for the Chinese Government. So far I've found no information on this autoloader, but if the Mondragon rifle was used by China they may have had them license built by Pratt&Whitney.

[Throwback]

These are beautifully made rifles but exceedingly rare, fragile, and tightly fit. I have only ever been able to handle one, a Swiss made 7mm. I might be inclined to shoot one (once!) if I were the owner.

The Wikipedia article you cite cannot have been very accurate and I seriously doubt any use in Stalingrad. I also doubt its use as a sniper rifle. Whoever made that entry is confused on his facts. Wikipedia is a good place to start but one must take every entry with a healthy degree of skepticism and research further. It was tried in the trenches in WW1 but quickly found unsatisfactory. Its only real use was briefly on airplanes. It proved too delicate for chambering in 8mm.

[Multigunner]

The Mondragon F-08 is among the list of rifles in use during the Chinese Civil War.
Used by both Nationalist and Communist forces.