303 British and my #4 Longbranch

[robertbank]

Yesterday with the temperature hovering around 7C I took my Longbranch out for a trial run.

I loaded 40 cases using 23 gr of 4227, CCI LRP and IVI Brass. Bullets were teh Lyman 314299 cast from WW and GC'd. Velocity of this load runs around 1750 on avg. over my F1 Chrony. The IVI brass consisted of 20 head stamped .303 Brit while the 2nd lot had the more familiar military head stamp dated '92.

My Longbranch is scoped.

I got going and finally managed a 3 Shot group at 50 yards of just under 1/2" with all three holes touching. With having achieved ths small victory I then took the target out to 75 yards. I put five rounds in a group of about three inches and promptly ran the last of 20 rounds using the IVI .303 Brit brass. I then switched to the IVI '92 brass.

The next 20 rounds all hit the target about 4" low in a reasonable group of around 3". I haven't had this happen to me before.

What would cause a dramatic drop in the impact area of the bullets?

I am not the best rifle shooter there is but this change in impact has me confused. Thoughts?

Take Care

Bob

[Multigunner]

Have you compared case capacity between the two types of cases?

Another possiblity, though small, would be a difference in geometry of the primer pocket causing a lesser ignition impulse. Check for a radius at the bottom of the pockets or a difference in the size of the flash hole.

Some S&B cases I once used had a severe radius at the bottom of the pocket which interfered with seating of the primer. These cases also have a much thinner case head. Differences in thickness of the head can cause a longer path for the primer flash to reach the powder.

Occasionally I've found cases with a lot of flash pushed up around the inside flash hole opening, This can also affect ignition.

The lighter the charge the more such inconsistencies can affect ignition.

PS
The different cases need not produce a noticable variation in measured muzzle velocity to produce a change in point of impact. Lesser or greater ignition impulse can affect barrel time to maximum velocity, with the bullet exiting the muzzle at a different point in the barrel vibration cycle.

[atr]

hi Bob,,,
yea,,,that 4" difference is a pretty big jump. Mulitgunner is right about cases having varying volumetric capacities...however I have found that the primer flash holes to be worse in terms of uniformity. I would certainly check those and get a tool to both open up and make all the flash holes uniform.
OR....chuckle.....was your point of aim for those last 20 rounds the same?...

OR... and this just happend to me at the range...I was helping a fellow sight in his .223 and we had it zeroed when all of a sudden all his shots were wandering way to the right of the point of aim....we discovered that one of the screws mounting the sight had worked loose the the sight itself was shifting..

[curator]

'Could also be neck tension was different with the other batch of brass. IMR4227 gives higher velocities with heavy crimp or bullets touching the rifling, both of which increases pressure. Higher velocities result in lower bullet impact at short range like 50 yards due to less barrel time and muzzle lift before the bullet exits.

[PAT303]

A change in light conditions will cause a change of impact. Pat

[robertbank]

'Could also be neck tension was different with the other batch of brass. IMR4227 gives higher velocities with heavy crimp or bullets touching the rifling, both of which increases pressure. Higher velocities result in lower bullet impact at short range like 50 yards due to less barrel time and muzzle lift before the bullet exits.

This maybe it. I spent the day reading Pat's dissertation on how he bedded his rifle. I am going back to the range on Monday, assuming the wind dies down with the rifle bedded at the nose with a slip of cigarette cardboard over the barrel and the middle of the gun bedded 360 degrees with the same thickness of cardboard. I have 20 rds loaded using the .303 Brit brass and report back to you the results. The bedding is going to be a work in progress as Pat suggests and we will see if my rifle likes one version of bedding or another or none at all.

I am determined to get decent 100 yard groups with this rifle even with abysmal lack of rifle shoting talent.

Take Care

Bob

[sundog]

Bob, I have a love-hate relationship with a particular No4MkI. Sometimes, it is absolutely phenominal, other times not. Sometimes it shoots really good and goes south while shooting. Shot a mil bolt match with it one time and did sorta okay, and then to use up the ammo I had left I shot 30 consecutive rounds into the 10 ring on SR21 at one hundred yards - the 10 ring was gone, nothing less than a 10on the target. This rifle is all original and my guess is that it will be helped A LOT with some simple bedding. Just gotta find time.

[robertbank]

Bob, I have a love-hate relationship with a particular No4MkI. Sometimes, it is absolutely phenominal, other times not. Sometimes it shoots really good and goes south while shooting. Shot a mil bolt match with it one time and did sorta okay, and then to use up the ammo I had left I shot 30 consecutive rounds into the 10 ring on SR21 at one hundred yards - the 10 ring was gone, nothing less than a 10on the target. This rifle is all original and my guess is that it will be helped A LOT with some simple bedding. Just gotta find time.

Time, isn't that the truth. Off to teach a Safety Officer course this weekend for IDPA. I hope to get back at the .303 Brit on Monday. Problem with being retired is you never get a day off! Then there is yard work...

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

Well I am back. I loaded 40 rds using 23 gr of 4227. I do my shooting at 50 yards. I had ten rds loaded shorter oer Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook and 30 rds loaded out to 3.065. OF the 30 rds I decided to try cream of wheat filler on 20 of them. I loaded them with 23 gr of 4227 and topped the case off with cream of wheat to just below the base of the bullet.

AT this point I am sure some of the more experienced shooters are now covering their eyes.

Well the short loaded cases managed a 3" group with two fliers taking the entire group out to six inches. So much for manual specs!

The 2nd group of 10 rds loaded with 23 gr of 4227 OAL 3.065 managed a tidy one inch group. a third group of 10 were inside an inch. AT this point I was very pleased with my efforts so bring on the filler rounds.

Opps! The first bullet hit 5 inches high at 12 oclock. Each sucessive rd hit three quarters of inch higher making a nice verticle row of holes in the target, with the last round hitting nine inches high from point of aim. Ah but here comes the zinger. An inspection of the cases showed the primers to be flat. I mean real flat. Presure signs, you bet. I have no idea what velocity those bullets were going at but I do know I am not going to find out again.

I am going to back of my loadings using filler to 18 grains and work up again.

You boys are free to let me know why I am an idiot.:p Filler evidently does something more than fill the case.:groner:

Take Care

Bob
ps Barrel was free floating. Bedding the barrel did not work in this rifle.

[Ray1946]

Bob,..............I think that possibly your problem was the total weight of the projectile. I'm just guessing, but would say that the 299' out of ww's is probably 210-215 grs.. The filler on top of the 23grs. of powder is maybe 25-40 grs.. This would mean a projectile in the neighborhood of 250-265 grs. I'm not 100% certain, but that could be some of your problem..................Ray

[longbow]

Bob:

I have been using COW filler under a 314299 and over IMR4227 but lighter loads than you are using.

I started at 19 grs. with GC bullet and no filler and have gone as high as 24 grs. if memory serves. No signs of pressure.

I then decided to try the COW filler. I reduced the charge back down to 19 grs. and added filler. While there was no sticky extraction or severely flattened primers, the primers did flatten noticibly when compared to the same charge but no filler.

The added weight is a small percentage of boolit weight (27 grs. by my scale) so I doubt that raises pressure much but the reduced volume sure will.

I have been getting pretty good results as is so for now I have not worked up to a heavier load. Nor have I run these over a chronograph yet to compare.

Personally I am liking the results I am getting with filler so far and have been using the 314299 with no gas check over filler with about the same accuracy as with a gas check and no filler.

I plan to do some more load development using the filler. So far, while it is not necessary to use filler with faster powders for ignition and consistent burn, I have used it with Unique and IMR4227 without gas check with good results. I have also used the filler over IMR4064 and IMR4320. The loads I tried were not terribly accurate but no signs of pressure so I will work on those some more.

If you haven't seen these articles about using fillers, they are a good read:

http://www.303british.com/id37.html
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/castfiller/index.asp

I would back off the charge by 2 or 3 grains and try that if you want to use the filler over 4227.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Thanks Longbow. I plan to drop down to 17 gr and work up again. I want to run them over my Chrono as well to compare velocity results. I'll post here the results. Thanks for the links.

I shold add the barrel does get a polishing with the COW.

It is all wichcraft I swear.:mrgreen:

Take Care

Bob

[NickSS]

Thanks Bigedp51 this is good info and something I did not know about enfields but now that you point it out I can see what you mean.

[robertbank]

Well I went off in a different directon. Jeff in New Zealand had sent me a load for 4350 sometime ago. 40 gr under the 314299 boolit. Well I finally loaded some up and had great sucess. I started out at 50 yards and dropped 10 rds into an inch. I then went back to 100 yards.Five rds into 1.5"! Now for me that isn't too bad. I really don't think I can do much better than that. No vertical stringing. Load is stiff with boolits running over the Chrony at 2025 fps avg 10 rds SD 17.

I just loaded up 40 more rounds and hope to get out later today to seem if I am still on track.

Take Care

Bob

[madsenshooter]

I've also found slower powders to work better, in my case in a Krag that takes .311 bullets. I've also been experimenting with Puff-Lon and have ran into some problems with it. I reduce the charge, that requires more Puff-Lon, so really the pressure remains near constant as you reduce the charge. I think I'll just find a slow enough powder that the case is nearly full and forget about the rest of the space.

[JeffinNZ]

19-20gr H4227 has always worked well for me with 200-220gr bullets but as Robert has pointed out for a top end load 40-41gr of H4350 is hard to beat.

[longbow]

JeffinNZ:

Are you using heat treated boolits or ACWW?

I have been getting varying results, sometimes pretty good with ACWW and sometimes not. When I oven heat treat I seem to get more consistent accuracy. My thought was that the boolits were lagging the rifling a bit ~ not stripping but swaging wider grooves in the boolit. Some recovered boolits showed extra wide grooves.

I have not been pushing velocities either and boolit fit is about 0.002" over groove. My typical load is the same as yours at 19 grs. IMR4227.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Filler does more than just add to the ejecta weight and reduce case volume - it also compacts and acts as a plug, raising pressure. Dacron and small puffs of wool or cotton wool don't do that nor do they take up case volume. (Wool smells great on firing! :mrgreen: )

I've found that AR2209/4350 burns better at reduced loads using a filler. Proceed with caution! I seem to get very similar velocity to 4227 loads but with lower pressure. I'm still scared of the stuff but it does show promise and so far no SEE's.

[robertbank]

JeffinNZ:

Are you using heat treated boolits or ACWW?

I have been getting varying results, sometimes pretty good with ACWW and sometimes not. When I oven heat treat I seem to get more consistent accuracy. My thought was that the boolits were lagging the rifling a bit ~ not stripping but swaging wider grooves in the boolit. Some recovered boolits showed extra wide grooves.

I have not been pushing velocities either and boolit fit is about 0.002" over groove. My typical load is the same as yours at 19 grs. IMR4227.

Longbow

I just wanted to respond to your post. My boolits are water quenched and gas checked of course. In my rifle I found 19 gr of 4227 OK but could not get the consistant accuracy I wanted. With the rifle now scoped, elimiating some of my ineptness at shooting rifle, I still find my gun struggles with 4227 using loads running from 19 gr to 23. Standard deviations were tightest, less then 10, with 19 and 23 grain loads. In between SD's rose noticiably.

Take Care

Bob

[Hardcast416taylor]

There are 3 different burn rate 4350 powders here in the states. It would make for a great deal less confusion and a lot safer for newbies starting in loading if you would state WHICH 4350 was used.Robert

[longbow]

Robert:

I guess I would make similar comments to yours. I am not the best shooter having not done a lot for many years. I have cast and reloaded for over 40 years but do not compete and find I do not get out to the range as often as I would like to practice.

Having said that, I am working on loads for my Lee Enfield No. 5 with pretty good success. I started with a borrowed Lyman 314299 which cast at 0.312" so small for my 0.314" groove diameter. Accuracy was not spectacular to say the least ~ 3" to 4" at 50 yards.

I found that factory loads shot even worse ~ more like 4" to 6" 50 yards.

I bought a Lyman 314299 that cast at 0.313" and lapped it to 0.316". That worked pretty well and I started getting reasonable groups (for me) of 2" to 3" at 50 yards using old eyes and stock sights. Some groups are tighter and many have nice clusters of 3 or 4 boolits with a flyer or two.

Some recovered boolits showed signs of skidding with large grooves in the boolits. I decided to try oven heat treating and that seemed to help. More recently, I bought an NOE 316299 which casts absolutely perfect boolits and at the right size. Accuracy seems more consistent but I am thinking I need to get a scope to eliminate or at least minimize the pilot error.

I have been using mostly ACWW lately over 19 grs. IMR4227 gas checked without filler or not gas checked with filler. Experience to date with the NOE 316299 and NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. indicate that using filler gives more consistency. I have not run these loads over a chronograph yet but will.

Also, I think I will oven heat treat the next batch to try that again. I really should keep better records and work more scientifically!

Anyway, I am rambling. The question was "Do you heat treat?" and you say you water quench so I am guessing some of my inconsistency is due to soft boolits. I will go back to harder boolits and try again.

Thanks,
Longbow

[robertbank]

Yes longbow I water quench all my boolits. I prefer them on the hard side. I am going out again today. If I am able to get similar results I am goin gto switch the scope over to my #5 rifle and see what I can get out of her. Now I know I have a reasonably accurate loading I can blame my misses on bad eyes, lousy iron sights and the weather.:lol:

Hardcast416taylor: IMR 4350 sorry about that.

No need to capitalize your letters I can read just fine.

Take Care

Bob

[JeffinNZ]

I heat treat the bullets for the top end loads only.

[longbow]

I will be casting this week and will oven heat treat some NOE 316299's then load them over moderate loads of both Unique and IMR4227. They will be gas checked and no filler. These cast beautifully and at perfect size.

Not sure why I dropped the oven heat treating ~ just lazy I guess.

I am also working on loads for the NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. but have to lap out about 0.002" to suit my large groove diameter.

I have a scope mount on order too so that should help eliminate pilot error ~ at least the visual portion.

Thanks for the heat treating info Bob and Jeff.

Longbow

[leadman]

I found COW seems to raise pressures in bottleneck cartridges more than in straight walled cases.
I use poly-fil most of the time if I want a filler.

[Char-Gar]

Rifle trouble shooting step #1 - Check and make certain all action, sight and/or scope screw are cinched down real tight. If there is one or more that is not real tight, tighten and repeat tests. No sense in trying to run down the problem until this is done.

I can't remember the times, that folks had accuracy problems with a rifle, and it was all due to loose screws.

[robertbank]

Rifle trouble shooting step #1 - Check and make certain all action, sight and/or scope screw are cinched down real tight. If there is one or more that is not real tight, tighten and repeat tests. No sense in trying to run down the problem until this is done.

I can't remember the times, that folks had accuracy problems with a rifle, and it was all due to loose screws.

I thnk sometimes the only screw loose is the one in my head!

I was out on Monday and shot 1" groups with my 23 gr of IMR 4227 at 50 yards. I was minute of man with my 40 gr 4350 loads which was very disappointing after my sucess with it the week before. I may take up drinking as a full time pasttime!

I am going to back down to 19 gr of 4227 and see if I can duplicate my 23 gr load. I may also load some without gas checks a COW filler at 19 grains.

Take Care

Bob

[longbow]

Bob:

I would have to go find targets but from memory I have had best results so far from Unique, IMR4227, IMR4198 and IMR4895. Mostly I have shot 4227 and have managed some decent groups. Every time I start pushing velocity with more slower powders groups open right up even when oven heat treated.

Not sure why that is, I have good boolit fit and a pretty nice bore. I think hardness is definitely an issue with the fast twist. Some of my recovered boolits of ACWW showed large grooves in the boolits ~ not stripped just not keeping up.

Oven heat treated boolits have done best for me and I don't know why I stopped. I will be casting tonight, I hope, then oven heat treating, carefully gas checking, then loading over moderate loads in trimmed annealed cases. Trying to eliminate obvious errors. If all goes well then next time I will boost velocity a little and see how that goes.

Longbow

[robertbank]

Rifle trouble shooting step #1 - Check and make certain all action, sight and/or scope screw are cinched down real tight. If there is one or more that is not real tight, tighten and repeat tests. No sense in trying to run down the problem until this is done.

I can't remember the times, that folks had accuracy problems with a rifle, and it was all due to loose screws.

I checked the rifle last night and low and behold there were some screws that needed more tightening. I will reload this morning and redo tests. Thanks for the heads up.

I am going to do 20 rds using the 40 gr of IMR 4350, 20 rds of 23 gr IMR 4227 and 20 rds of 19 gr 4227. We shall see how they group once the present weather front riolls through.


Take Care

Bob

[longbow]

Bob:

I have another boolit to try out now.

I got my NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. a few weeks ago and did some casting and shooting but results were mediocre (again ~ at least I am consistent).

The boolit is a little small for my sloppy bore so I decided to lap the mould. I now have a nice little boolit with 0.316" driving bands. I am anxious to try them and hopefully will get out this weekend.

I will be loading these and some 316299's. All will be oven heat treated and gas checked.

I will let you know how this goes and willbe interested to see how you do as well.

Longbow

[longbow]

Bob:

Latest results using all oven heat treated range scrap boolits in my No. 5 at 50 yards:

I tried both the NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. lapped to 0.316" and the NOE 316299 both wearing my home made gas checks and home made lube.

The 0.314" x 129 gr. did not too too well but the NOE 316299 gave a four pretty good groups of 5 shots each with the best group being about 1 1/2" and the worst being 2 1/2".

Loads were 12.8 grs of Unique and 22 grs. of IMR4227 ~ no filler in either.

The NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. is improving but needs work. The NOE 316299 is a proven design and fits well so no surprise that it shoots well and the mould casts virtually perfect boolits.

I am sure a little more load work and a scope would shrink groups too so I am happy at this point.

I will load up some more and try to repeat this. If successful then I have light to moderate loads that look good. Then I will again try some slower powders to push velocities up some to see how that goes.

Longbow