Narrowing down on a semi-auto rifle . . .

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Howdy All!

I have been re-thinking my home defense weapons . . . in the case of an economic collapse . . .

I have a nice Rem 700 BDL Stainless with a Nikon 3X9 on top chambered in .270 Win . . . I like the gun, but I'm thinking that it does not have the round capacity, or speed if some punko's try to take on my home with their AR15's .223 pop guns!

I like the fact that my 270 has RANGE, and plenty of UUMPH to knock over whatever it hits . . .

I'm not really interested in a .223 chambered gun, I also know that is what most government soldiers use, but I like a bigger hole . . . 30 cal! (My opinion on the .223 is that it is a varmint cal, good for PD, and up to coyote size)

So enough rambling . . .

I'm thinking of a couple of different guns:

AK47
M1A
FAL

I like the idea of the AK 47 because . . .
It is a very dependable firing gun, which seems to handle "dirty" better than most any other gun.
It also is relatively cheap, compared to the others.
Is frugal on powder
High capacity mags available
Lower recoil
Shorter stock make easier for short wife to shoot!

I don't like . . .
That it seems to be offered a lot as bits and pieces from all over the world.
That is is marginal in power at 200 yards.
It's not real accurate
Foreign made

I like the M1A because . . .
It is American Made!
Has good longer range accuracy
Has plenty of knock down power at 200 yards
Longer barrel

I don't really like . . .
The price
Only seen 20 rd mags for it
More recoil

Things I like about the FAL . . .
Not made in china! (A quality import)
Long range accuracy
Has plenty of knock down power at 200 yards
Longer barrel

I don't really like . . .
The price
More recoil
Not sure if you can buy new

I would prefer to buy a good used one if it wasn't some hacked together modified experiment . . . but prepared to buy new.

I also am looking to buy two rifles one for me (I'm 6'1" and have long arms) and one for my wife (she is 5'0" and "Petite")

My wife "had" a Rem 700 ADL Youth in .243 which fit her pretty good . . . even though she though it had a bunch of recoil . . . My 700 BDL has a thick slip-on recoil pad ADDED on, an is just about right for length of pull, the 270 does kick more than I would like for a lot of shooting, I know I'm kinda wimpy!

In some ways it would be simple to only have one cartridge . . . but not sure if my wife would get use to the 308 . . .

I also would like to reload my own ammo of course, so cast is also a concern as far as guns being cast friendly.

What are your thoughts?

[smilie=s:

Edit to add: I also would like to put on something like the Trijicon Reflex, or even ACOG 2 or 3X

[sqlbullet]

Look into a Garand.

You can buy a good condition shooter (Service Grade) for $617.95 delivered to your door from the CMP. With the roughly $500 you will save over an M1A, you can buy 1000 rounds of M2 ball from the same source.

The M2 ball will hit just as hard at 200 yards as any 308. Upgrade your Garand with a Schuster gas plug, and you can have it hitting harder.

[Bloodman14]

Get yourself a couple of SKS's, outfit them with Tapco stock/compliance kits, a couple of mags each, and have a ball! Don't try to scope them; ask how I know. Adjust one for the lady, they use the same parts/ammo, it's a win/win situation. May I recommend the Yugo 59/66 model?

[Mk42gunner]

What about an M-1 Carbine? Light, low recoil, 15 and 30 round magazines available.

Robert

[45 2.1]

I'll second the SKS...........a yugo for you and a Russian/Chinese one for your wife. Good accurate rifle (depends on ammo entirely, but most SKSs with good ammo do 1 to 1.5 MOA), 10 shot magazine (or if you can find one of those that takes the real AK 30 round mag...some were imported) that takes stripper clips along with a 400 yd. capable cartridge. Good iron sights on them also. Very dependable rifles that don't break.

[mike in co]

ok i do not know what the others have been smoking but,

you can get a 25 rd( really 23/24) rd mag for the m14 clone.

for the wife...get a an ar15 in223...she will be able to shoot


for you get an ar 15 in 223

now you have two common rifles with common ammo that is common in the country you are shooting.

now for knock down and accuracy...either an ar10( 308) or the 6.8....80% of the energy of a 308 in an ar15 size package.

and the 270 can be used for single long range.

( you can get an ar in 7.62x39 but mags use to be an issue)


you are mostly correct on the ak..but some are made in the usa.

while i like sks's they are 10 round/maybe 20 rd, tho there are some mags available.

m1 carbine...no way
garand no way

BUY QUALITY..NOT PRICE.
ARMALITE, BUSHMASTER, ROCKRIVER, STAG...NOT FULTON,NOT LES BEAR, NO NAME THAT APPEARED IN THE LAST 2-3 YRS.

[bigdog454]

You must really have a big house! Do you really need a rifle that will shoot 300+ yards? and how many walls will you be shooting through? For my way of thinking. a shotgun loaded with #2 shot or #4 buck shot, is the best home defense you can get. If you are inclined for a pistol that's good too, or a carbine firing a pistol cartridge. I don't want to shoot thru someone and the walls and my neighbors walls 3oo yards away. No one, breaking into a house will argue with a shotgun, "UNLESS" they are high on drugs, and then the shotgun will win.
Just my opinion.

[44mag1]

Just do the right thing and give any perpetrator what they want. If the police catch them, they can be rehabilitated at the state level. But for me, I have both an ak-47 and an ar15. Ill take either one but would prefer the AR-15 because as the ranges get farther you can still be very accurate.

[Lead Fred]

First off you can never own a AK-47, they are called AKS.
A look-a-like semi only, which is no way anything close to a 47.

I agree with an SKS or M1 Carbine. They are both good CQC rifles.

They wont shoot as far as an M1, M1a, or FAL.
They are also cost a lot less, you can still get reloading equipt for both.

I went with an SKS because the ammo was cheaper. Ifs for the medium woman, and I didnt want her to have to deal with magazines.

[StarMetal]

The Chinese did make some SKS's that took AK magazines.

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=296757&d=1268870473

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

More questions, and comments/answers . . .

sqlbullet: Garands are nice, but are limited on "clip" capacity, actually I prefer a "mag" over a clip.

Gunnerd: I thought the SKS used "clips" not "mags" see above.

Mk42gunner: M1 Carbine seems "wimpy", not much at 200 yards . . .

45 2.1: What range are you talking with those groups? Why a yugo for me and a Russian/Chinese for wife? (are they built different sized?) Apparently my assumption (or knowledge) is wrong about Mags for SKS's . . . ?

mike in co: Mostly agree, Especially on the QUALITY! But not crazy about the .223, (seems "wimpy" to me . . .) although I'm just going by stats, never shot one . . . I like the .308 for myself . . . I don't "HAVE" to have same cartridge as wife, but it makes things simpler. What is this "6.8"? I'm not familiar with that . . .


bigdog454: Yeah, have you never heard "Things are bigger out West!"? :mrgreen:This is for those before they get inside, I have 12 gauge and handguns for inside! [smilie=w:


44mag1: Sorry . . . we are on a different page . . . I do not believe that the state or gov rehabilitates anybody, they just baby sit them till their time is up . . . I worked as a volunteer in a med sec prison in VT for 3.5 years . . . If somebody wants my stuff, or wife they are gonna only get it by paying the hard way!

Lead Fred: OK, an AKS, I assume the difference is in Full auto . . . ? Most everybody calls them AK47's here and are listed as such on gun broker . . .

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I'm looking for something hopefully I can reload, obviously having a case or two of 1000 rounds of regular "ball" as a back up is fine, but . . . I think that reloading can give you the choice of a better preforming bullet or boolit, FMJ just doesn't do much for me! I'm not interesting in "injuries" . . . Fatalities, are what I want!

How would these handle reloads? I had heard that the Garand was fussy . . . what about the others . . .

Would you say that 7.62X39 is similar to recoil as the .243? I know it will make a difference in which rifle I get for my wife as in the overall weight . . . will effect felt recoil.


I really don't know much about auto rifles . . . I have a 10/22, and even use to have a Glock 19 pistol, but never really liked the autos . . . but I think it would be prudent to have a couple in the safe just in-case "Life in these United States Changes" Or "The end of this world as we know it!"

So where does that leave me? Am I being too fussy?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

The Chinese did make some SKS's that took AK magazines.

http://forums.gunboards.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=296757&d=1268870473

So are Chinese guns better than the other garbage they make?

[44mag1]

[QUOTE=123.DieselBenz;852005]More questions, and comments/answers . . .




44mag1: Sorry . . . we are on a different page . . . I do not believe that the state or gov rehabilitates anybody, they just baby sit them till their time is up . . . I worked as a volunteer in a med sec prison in VT for 3.5 years . . . If somebody wants my stuff, or wife they are gonna only get it by paying the hard way!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Were on the same page, I was being facetious!!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

[QUOTE=123.DieselBenz;852005]More questions, and comments/answers . . .




44mag1: Sorry . . . we are on a different page . . . I do not believe that the state or gov rehabilitates anybody, they just baby sit them till their time is up . . . I worked as a volunteer in a med sec prison in VT for 3.5 years . . . If somebody wants my stuff, or wife they are gonna only get it by paying the hard way!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Were on the same page, I was being facetious!!


OK great![smilie=p: Sometimes it is hard to tell with just letters on a page!

:bigsmyl2:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Ok, it does appear that some SKS's do have removable Mags, and don't use "clips" as in a "stripper clip" I just saw a NORINCO on gunbroker with 4 mags . . . some others seem to have a magazine that pivots down and out, but does not detach from the gun . . .

Any input on the FAL? Can the be bought new?

Edit to add: How are spire points, or hp's at feeding? What about paper patched!?

I want a gun that will have enough knock down at 200+ yards, that I have a chance at hitting at that range. Further away, I could use my .270 . . . my .270 is fine for 6-9 rounds, but then I get a flinch, and the barrel is very hot too! Just being honest, I'm sure with more practice the round count to flinch could be worked out better . . .

[corvette8n]

Don't forget a 12ga. shotgun for close work

[sqlbullet]

I have read as much negative as positive regarding the detachable magazine options for the SKS. For a defense weapon, I am not sure I would count it them.

The garand is not 'fussy' per se, but with the mil spec gas plug the reload has to produce the right port pressure or you can damage your op-rod. the hornady manual lists a number of garand specific loads.

Or, you can purchase a $30 adjustable gas plug. Change them out in about 1 minute. Then you can shoot whatever you want.

Can't argue that if you want magazines, the Garand isn't the gun for you.

In that case, I would say you are looking at an AR-10, Cetme, FAL or M1A. Of those, I would pick the M1A.

[Cord]

Just reading this thread with interest, I was wondering;

What about a Ruger Mini 30 ( 7.62 x 39 ) stainless Ranch Rifle?
They now also make them in 6.8 SPC.

You can see both on G Broker...

I know it’s not a true military item, but might fit your wife
better, made in USA, hi-cap 30 round magazines are available,
it's scope ready and seems to fit most of your other requirements....

I'm not talking about a Mini 14 in .223

.

[MtGun44]

For short range, in the home defense, the various pistol caliber carbines are far easier
to hit with, less muzzle flash and noise. Keltech makes several good ones. Highpoints
work, but are really ugly. Old Marlin campguns, some Rugers were made.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I have in the house covered with double 12 gauge, and .357 mag revolvers . . .

I want something to use if things go bad, and if I have to "persuade" people from a distance to "go shopping" elsewhere! If after the 1st shot they are not discouraged, then I want some fire power to "eliminated the threat"

I'll look at that Ruger 6.8 . . . Thanks for the suggestion!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Just reading this thread with interest, I was wondering;

What about a Ruger Mini 30 stainless Ranch Rifle?
They also make them in 6.8 SPC.

I know it’s not a true military item, but might fit your wife
better, made in USA, hi-cap magazines are available, scope ready
and seems to fit most of your other requirements....

.

Actually it is the mini 14 all weather . . . but only has 5 round . . . in the 6.8

Edit to add: but the mini 30 is 7.62X39 with a 20 rnd mag . . .

[45 2.1]

45 2.1: What range are you talking with those groups? Why a yugo for me and a Russian/Chinese for wife? (are they built different sized?) Apparently my assumption (or knowledge) is wrong about Mags for SKS's . . . ?


Good accurate rifle (depends on ammo entirely, but most SKSs with good ammo do 1 to 1.5 MOA)

MOA is minute of angle which is actually 1.047" at 100 yds, so groups are 1 to 1-1/2" at 100 yds off a steady rest with a good shooter. Yugos are heavy built and longer, a good solid rifle as you are bigger. Your wife OTOH is shorter, the Russian/Chinese version is more suited to her size. All SKS's I have fired are very accurate with good ammo. Most surplus is not as good as handloads and should give about 2 MOA groups. Most SKS mags are intregal to the rifle, But some came in useing the AK detachable magazines.

[Bloodman14]

123, seriously, I would lean toward the Yugo SKS; the Tapco stocks are adjustable, ammo is readily available and cheap, the guns are reliable, etc. They do come with a 10-round steel magazine, but Tapco sells 20- and 30-rounders for a good price. Mine loves the Lee 120 gr. boolit in front of H322; I can hit a 8x8 steel plate offhand at 100 yds! As far as "clips" are concerned, "clips" hold 10 rounds ready to shove into the magazine.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

45 2.1: What range are you talking with those groups? Why a yugo for me and a Russian/Chinese for wife? (are they built different sized?) Apparently my assumption (or knowledge) is wrong about Mags for SKS's . . . ?


Good accurate rifle (depends on ammo entirely, but most SKSs with good ammo do 1 to 1.5 MOA)

MOA is minute of angle which is actually 1.047" at 100 yds, so groups are 1 to 1-1/2" at 100 yds off a steady rest with a good shooter. Yugos are heavy built and longer, a good solid rifle as you are bigger. Your wife OTOH is shorter, the Russian/Chinese version is more suited to her size. All SKS's I have fired are very accurate with good ammo. Most surplus is not as good as handloads and should give about 2 MOA groups. Most SKS mags are intregal to the rifle, But some came in useing the AK detachable magazines.


OK, Thanks . . . so with the above MOA example at 200 yards that would mean 2" - 3" group, and at 300 yards 3" - 4.5" group?

How are the 7.62X39 cases for reloading? Do they hold up? How about loading/feeding spire points?

I'm still leaning towards a 308 for myself, but fear that my wife won't like it, so won't shoot it!

[45 2.1]

OK, Thanks . . . so with the above MOA example at 200 yards that would mean 2" - 3" group, and at 300 yards 3" - 4.5" group?
Yes, you have the idea correct............

How are the 7.62X39 cases for reloading? Commercial, PMC or Lake City military that are boxer primed are fine. The surplus are usually steel or copper coated steel berdan (pitch them) Do they hold up? Yes How about loading/feeding spire points? Rifles are made for them. The Lee 312-155 boolits work fine in them.

I'm still leaning towards a 308 for myself, but fear that my wife won't like it, so won't shoot it! The nice thing about the 308 is that cast works fine in them... semi-automatically. With mild recoil once you get the load worked out. She would not have a problem with it at all. Currently I have no problem getting 1.5 to 2 MOA in several 308/7.62x51 semi-auto rifles with the 30 Silohuette boolit. The only problem is finding a shorter light rifle to fit her in it (bolt action would be no problem).

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

The "Standard M1A" has a 22" barrel . . . the "Scout Squad" has a 18" barrel with a wooden stock . . . do you think that cutting the butt off the scout would work? Would it still be balanced . . .?

:idea:Probably should get one out and shoot it . . . thinking out loud now . . . do they "rent them"?

[45 2.1]

The "Standard M1A" has a 22" barrel . . . the "Scout Squad" has a 18" barrel with a wooden stock . . . do you think that cutting the butt off the scout would work? Would it still be balanced . . .?

:idea:Probably should get one out and shoot it . . . thinking out loud now . . . do they "rent them"?

I haven't got to shoot a shorter M1A, but have handled the Socom. Not bad for its potential. A really well stocked place will probably have one. Currently M1As are quite difficult to get hold of in my area.

[waksupi]

First off you can never own a AK-47, they are called AKS.
A look-a-like semi only, which is no way anything close to a 47.
.

I beg to differ. The rifles we imported were all AK47 marked, from the import papers, through the federal paperwork. Are you saying we handled over 6000 rifles that were improperly imported under government supervision?

[StarMetal]

So are Chinese guns better than the other garbage they make?

The Chinese guns are getting better. Also depends on what models. For example their SKS's are as good as anyones really. Their Norinco 1911 are pretty darn good too as are their Tokarevs.

[StarMetal]

I beg to differ. The rifles we imported were all AK47 marked, from the import papers, through the federal paperwork. Are you saying we handled over 6000 rifles that were improperly imported under government supervision?

If a person is eligible and the full auto gun is transferable, one can legally own any full auto.

If there are full auto AK47's in the country, who do you think bought them? People with the proper NFA licenses. Surely the police departments don't use them or our military. Yes I know our military has put to use lots of unissued weapons.

This was to the poster you were disagreeing with Ric.

[rockrat]

If you want a large hole, you can go with a 450Bushmaster. Think they have a sale on uppers right now. Plenty big hole, Hornady makes ammo, plus you can have uppers in 6.8, 223 and 7.62 x 39, your choice, and only one lower. Does well with cast boolits too!!

[Blammer]

Howdy All!

I have been re-thinking my home defense weapons . . . in the case of an economic collapse . . .



my question is in the light of this statement: Why would you want a firearm that depends on importation of the ammo or the brass component?

personally, I'd pick something in the 30-06 or 308 cartridge if you don't want a 223 'pop' gun.

Seriously, how far do you REALLY think you'll be shooting?

[Lead Fred]

I beg to differ. The rifles we imported were all AK47 marked, from the import papers, through the federal paperwork. Are you saying we handled over 6000 rifles that were improperly imported under government supervision?

Yup, check the net, the last AK-47 was made in 1961. The post ban ones cant even be made selective fire, they will blow up. (frames will crack).

I even found one website that called it a sub-machine gun. Which is wrong on several levels

When I retired from the Army in 92, the entire US Army had less than 12 working AK47s, and some for parts. Ya think they could find more.

and Yes more class III collectors have AK47s than the US Army does.

You can say AK family, because some form of AK have been, and are being made today.

Calling the civilian AKS a AK47 is like calling an M1A an M14

Close but no cigar.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

my question is in the light of this statement: Why would you want a firearm that depends on importation of the ammo or the brass component?

personally, I'd pick something in the 30-06 or 308 cartridge if you don't want a 223 'pop' gun.

Seriously, how far do you REALLY think you'll be shooting?

Not many 30-06 high mag semis around that I know of . . . what do you suggest?

Both the FAL & M1A use the .308 . . . which would you choose, and why?

I have an open field (empty lots) that are a good 300 yards across . . . not really 12 gauge or .357 mag range.;)

I figure that I can get, and keep the components on hand . . . so when/if they ever become "not available" I'll have enough . . .

[spqrzilla]

The best recommendation for a low cost solution is the SKS. I don't recommend getting a Yugoslavian one and adding a Tapco stock because the Yugo's for technical reasons are a 922(r) violation nightmare if you make any alterations ( a Tapco compliance kit is not enough ). If you are not going to alter them, Yugo's work well enough and are cheap. The other SKS probably are a bit more reliable as the Yugo's gas valve is a weak point.

A higher cost solution would be the Ruger Mini-30 if you are serious about not using 5.56mm ammo, otherwise the Mini 14. The newer ones are better made than the earlier Mini-30 / Mini 14's.

[Blammer]

CETME cheap and reliable shoots 308

BAR, dependable and shoots 30-06

[76 WARLOCK]

I do not know how many AK47's the army has now, but in 1986 we used about a hundred that came from the 7th Special Forces Group to train the Phillipine Army on their use and how to maintain them.

I personally have An M1a and an FAL, I love the M1A because it is what I learned on in 1964 I know a man at 450m is a sure hit.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

CETME cheap and reliable shoots 308

BAR, dependable and shoots 30-06

Is the CETME a HK clone like the PRT-91? Interesting . . . HK also makes a MR762 in .308, not sure the price range, but the HK-91's bring a commanding price!

The bar doesn't have more than 5 round mag . . .

[Cherokee]

My M1A is great. My AR15 in 7.62x39 is great and will shoot just as good as the AR15 in 223. I like my Mini14. Never tried the Mini30, or SKS. The MAC90 (AK) I had would not hardly stay on paper at 100 yd with Lapua commercial ammo, much less Ruskie stuff. I would go with M1A and get some of the new 25 round mags. For the wife, AR in 7.62x39. BTW, I have some CProducts 30 rounds mags for my AR in 7.62x39.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I've been thinking . . .;-)

One thing I don't understand are how these mixed manufactured guns fit together . . .

If it has a "X" upper, a "Y" lower (which I don't really understand that terminology) and a "Z" something else . . . Is it because they are clones that the pieces fit together? What is the advantage? Does "X" make better uppers, but the "X" lowers are not as good as "Y' lowers, so somebody plays mix and match? Or are they aftermarket parts like "Hooker Headers"?

Like I said I have no experience in these types of guns, but I'm trying to learn before I drop the cash . . . :Fire:

Would I be better off just buying a new all same serial number same manufactured gun, I'm just a tad leery of someone else's "experimenting" . . . what if the took all the lower quality pieces together, and made a gun out of those parts . . . ?:confused:

I am leaning towards a new M1A atleast for myself.

[Blammer]

last I looked the BAR has a 20 rnd detachable box magazine.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/browning.htm

[StarMetal]

Is the CETME a HK clone like the PRT-91? Interesting . . . HK also makes a MR762 in .308, not sure the price range, but the HK-91's bring a commanding price!

The bar doesn't have more than 5 round mag . . .

You need to check out the new BAR's on FNH US website. They have a model called the FNAR that has a heavy barrel, pistol grip, picatinny rail, and 20 round magazines. I bet you're thinking of the commercial hunting rifle BAR.

[spqrzilla]

"BAR" also is used to describe a sporting semi-auto rifle made by Browning.

[StarMetal]

The best recommendation for a low cost solution is the SKS. I don't recommend getting a Yugoslavian one and adding a Tapco stock because the Yugo's for technical reasons are a 922(r) violation nightmare if you make any alterations ( a Tapco compliance kit is not enough ). If you are not going to alter them, Yugo's work well enough and are cheap. The other SKS probably are a bit more reliable as the Yugo's gas valve is a weak point.

A higher cost solution would be the Ruger Mini-30 if you are serious about not using 5.56mm ammo, otherwise the Mini 14. The newer ones are better made than the earlier Mini-30 / Mini 14's.

You're thinking of the 59/66 SKS with the gas cutoff valve and the ones that have a problem can be remedied. The Yugo 66 doesn't have that same valve. The Yugo's are heads above all the rest of the SKS's including the Russian which is very desirable only because it's Russian and hard to get now. The Yugo's are robust and well made.

[a.squibload]

I've been trying to decide the same question, thanks for the thread.

It's called 6.8mm Rem SPC, not that I know anything about it, think it was developed
as an intermediate so it could be used in full-auto.
Just found this, haven't read it yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=6.8mm+spc&go=Go

[StarMetal]

I've been trying to decide the same question, thanks for the thread.

It's called 6.8mm Rem SPC, not that I know anything about it, think it was developed
as an intermediate so it could be used in full-auto.
Just found this, haven't read it yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=6.8mm+spc&go=Go

It was developed so Special Ops would have something that would have more down range punch then the 5.56 in Afghanistan. The 5.56 can be fired in full auto mode too ya know. Part of the problem is that they need an M4 carbine for house to house, room to room fighting, but then sometimes they need to take long shots say 300 meters or more the the short M4 barrel takes away lots of velocity from the 5.56.

I wouldn't get one myself if I had to depend on ammo outside of my realm.

[spqrzilla]

The Yugo 66 doesn't have that same valve. The Yugo's are heads above all the rest of the SKS's including the Russian which is very desirable only because it's Russian and hard to get now. The Yugo's are robust and well made.

I think you mean the M59. The M59/66 gas valve is a weak spot as they can show up here with corroded valves that cause malfunctioning. I don't think I'd agree that the Yugo's are "heads above" but that's a subjective argument.

[StarMetal]

I think you mean the M59. The M59/66 gas valve is a weak spot as they can show up here with corroded valves that cause malfunctioning. I don't think I'd agree that the Yugo's are "heads above" but that's a subjective argument.

Yes sorry I picked the wrong number. I feel they are finely crafted, have excellent barrels on them, are very accurate, and very robust. I haven't handled and East German SKS so I can't compare those.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

last I looked the BAR has a 20 rnd detachable box magazine.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/browning.htm


Ah, now I see what your talking about, but . . . the M1918A version 1 or 2 came as a full auto . . . Rate of fire 550 rounds per minute . . . but . . . its weight (BAR, (18.5lbs)with bipod (2.4lbs) and a loaded bandoleer (19lbs), came to about 40 pounds), and I'm looking for semi only . . .

Now the grand baby of that Bar M1918A (I was thinking of the hunting model) the FNAR sound interesting, but is a .308, not 30-06. But that is OK.

The 6.8 seems to only be in Ruger mini 14 (6.8) as a civilian model, the military has their versions . . .

This is going great, lots of ideas!

Thanks![smilie=s:

Edit to add: Bushmaster apparently makes a 6.8 mm also on the AR15 platform . . . and a 16" barrel

[Mk42gunner]

If you want a .30-06 battle rifle with detachable magazines, check out the Italian BM-59. It is basically a Berreta manufactured M-1 Garand with a twenty round magazine. I know some were imported in the 1980's. Good luck finding enough extra magazines.

Shawn, You have mentioned being recoil shy with your .270, you are being honest with yourself, and that is good. Might I recommend that you find someone with a semiauto .308 and try it before spending your hard earned cash?

The reason I mentioned the M-1 Carbine is that it is very light, (roughly 2/3 the weight of an SKS) with manageable recoil, since you said your better half does not like recoil. Is it as effective at 200 yards as a .308? Probably not. Which is better, a hit on your theoretical adversary with a 110 gr Carbine round, or a flinch induced miss with a 147 gr .308? Who really wants to get hit with anything?

For that matter try your .357 leveractions on paper at 200 yards, I know I don't want to try to catch a bullet from even a .22 Short at any range.

Robert

[jim4065]

Is the CETME a HK clone like the PRT-91? Interesting . . . . . .

I believe the HK is a CETME clone.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Robert Thanks!

I just weighed my 700 BDL w/scope, sling, 5 rounds of 130gr in it . . . 9lbs 2oz, about what most 308s weigh without a scope, so I figure smaller cartridge = less powder, less kick!

After shooting my 270 for 3, three round groups, my Shoulder was getting sore, and flinched on the last (9th) shot.

Today I was out hunting rabbits, and a jack rabbit took off, and was a tad far when I touched off my 12 gauge, missed, it ran out to about 170 yards, and was still running when the 270 spoke, It ran another 50 - 60 yards and stopped, resting in the shade, and I gave it another round . . . missed both times, It's hard to hit a running rabbit at that range, but there was no flinch, my shoulder is not use to that much kick, and gets sore . . .

I do agree that it would be good to rent or borrow a 308.

Our three .357's are revolvers . . .

[lonewelder]

HK is Hecler and Koch.I may have spelled it wrong,but cetme is not even in the same class as H K. A HK 91 will run you about 2300$ and run like a swiss watch.I'm not downing Cetme but don' put them up against an HK.

[a.squibload]

I wouldn't get one myself if I had to depend on ammo outside of my realm.

Yeah, 6.8 seems to be not widely available, would depend on handloads. Probably
end up making brass out of 30Rem or another case, no experience with that.

OR, what about a lever gun? Not as fast but reliable? Fairly accurate? I heard
about 35Rem, 200 yards? Guess a lever would be more expensive than AK or
mini-30. I need to get adopted by a gun nut...

[jrayborn]

Don't forget about the FAL. It has Pro's and Cons in relation to the M1A, but trust me when I tell you there IS a reason over 90 countries adopted it as their main battle rifle. Although prices are higher in the last few years, they are still available used for much less than an M1A and parts and magazines are both MUCH less expensive and much more available if you look. DSA is a company that manufactures brand new ones too.

You have a lot to choose from no matter what you decide. Enjoy the journey!

[jim4065]

HK is Hecler and Koch.I may have spelled it wrong,but cetme is not even in the same class as H K. A HK 91 will run you about 2300$ and run like a swiss watch.I'm not downing Cetme but don' put them up against an HK.

I agree that H&K is an order of magnitude higher quality than CETME. When the word "clone" is used - it generally equates to "copy". In this case, H&K copied the CETME design, which was developed in Spain by expatriate Germans using a Wehrmacht assault rifle as a starting point. The H&K is a clone of the CETME, made to a higher quality standard.

[sagamore-one]

I have owned all the obove mentioned rifles and did considerable test and evaluation on each. I am a survivalist from the 1980's.
My results : got rid of every 7.62 x 39 except one bolt gun.
Kept two Fn Fal rifles in 308. , metric receiver.
Kept three Garands in 30-06. Two standard length , one Tanker.
Kept two ar-15 for the recoil shy.

Just for info... the BM 59 and 62 were 308.
Ruger mini 30 failed to pass reliability tests.
Ruger Mini 14 made empty brass with no positive accuracy results.
H K series lacked in "human engineering" was clumsy in reaction drills.
These are real world observations based on hands on experience.

If you can at all possible afford to .. buy an Fn Fal from DSA. Best at any price, and they love cast boolits.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

No, I don't think God was telling me to get a .223! But . . . I thought that the 6.8mm might not be the best choice for now, as ammo would more difficult to attain.

I also woke up at 3:57 and smiled as I went back to sleep, then woke up again at 4:58 . . . finely just got up! I like numbers, but am not into numerology.

The DSA FN FAL is not really much more $ then the M1A . . .

Edit to add: Interesting read . . . http://www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf about 2.5mb ebook on a EMP taking out the electricity!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Another question:

I was thinking that after only 9 shots (the most I've shot in a session) of my 270 really got my 24" barrel hot enough that I could not keep my finger on it! Is this normal?

How do these semi's with large capacity mags keep the barrel from getting too hot? Or does it really matter? How much does accuracy suffer?

[Bloodman14]

It will depend on how much shooting you do; my SKS will go through 2 mags worth before it gets real hot (40 rounds ). Don't sweat the gas valve; clean it real good occasionally, and leave it alone. Set it to fire normally, and you're done. Don't know how the recoil compares to a .243, never fired one. If you are concerned about Sec. 922(r) violations, just leave it in "as issued" condition. Any more ?'s, feel free to PM me.

[Blammer]

military rifles, you can shoot till you're out of ammo, don't worry about the barrel getting hot, that's why there is a hand guard.

I've shot my Garand till it was smokin hot, accuracy was still the same as when it was cold. I tested this with milsurp ammo and after the 8th consecutive enbloc the 9th was just as accurate as the first. I think I rattled of a shot about every 2-3 seconds in the test.

my AR 15, I ran 3 30rnd mags in it back to back, then shot for accuracy, same/same from cold or smoking hot brl.

in a fighting weapon, if accuracy melts away when the gun gets hot, it's junk you don't want anyways.

[BruceB]

Heat is what you get when you burn gunpowder. Added to that is the friction of the bullet travelling down the barrel, but this is a minor component compared to combustion heat. The lighter the barrel, the faster it heats up, all else being equal.

Over the years, I have had a lot of experience with all the common semi-autos mentioned so far. Currently there's an almost-new DSA SA58 in my rack, as well as a "loaded" M1A. There are some misconceptions about these rifles.

I paid MORE last year for my DSA than the price of a loaded M1A at the same time. This was partly due to the particular features of the rifle, such as fancy walnut in the butt, pistol grip and handguards, but SOME DSA rifles are not much less-expensive than SOME M1A rifles. Magazines are now about on par for prices. Recent gun shows have had FAL mags at around $20, and Checkmate Industries, supplier of M-14 mags to the US military, is selling the same mags (for M1A) at $25. Not much difference.

The M1A is a more-satisfactory rifle for those who enjoy shooting a lot in civilian-style activities. Its sights and trigger are much better than those on the FAL, which is not at all a bad rap on the FAL rifles. They're quite shootable. If the intent is to have more than one of these .308 rifles, I'd buy the M1A first, followed by the FAL. I would NEVER buy an HK91, because I simply detest that design. Others may like it, and they're welcome to it.

Civilian designs, Remington, Browning etc., need not apply.

If it's going to be just one rifle, my opinion is that the M1A in any version (EXCEPT THE $%^&*#@ SOCOM) is the one to get.

[pjh421]

When my wife shoots my Sav 110 FP she needs me to hold the barrel up for her. From a rest she does OK, not being bothered by the recoil (its a .308).

The length of an FAL could be a problem for your wife to manage. Also, I'm pretty sure the FAL has a fluted chamber. For hand loaders, this is trouble. That's too bad though, because the FAL is recoil operated and thus, cast boolit friendly. If you are looking at guns that would do well for you when times get tough and the things we need are scarce, I would think that a gun that would digest cast and jacketed would have more usefulness.

I doubt that you are going to need to engage targets at such great distances that the .223 or the .243 would hamper your efforts. Your wife could probably manage bolt guns in these calibers better than she could larger chamberings. Firing rapidly might sound like it would solve problems but in reality it leads to sloppy shooting and wasting of ammo. Bolt guns are easier on your brass and you don't have to chase it.

If in your training, you stress target acquisition and marksmanship over magazine capacity and rapid fire capability I believe you will wind up with a better end-state. Have you made range cards for the various firing positions (locations) from which you can expect to defend? Have you pre-positioned water, ammo, first aid kit, fire extinguisher, batteries, toilet paper, food, flashlight, etc. at each location? Do you have a signal system established with your wife? Have you identified the various avenues of approach to your property, identified dead space, improved the cover and concealment you will need, etc. so that when you have to act, you don't have to start from scratch?

I wouldn't, at this stage of the game, be too awfully concerned about the shades of difference between this or that cartridge/weapon as I would be about the features of survivability pertinent to your location and strategy. I don't mean to sound snippy, just want to offer this in the spirit of helping a friend.

Paul

[BruceB]

" Also, I'm pretty sure the FAL has a fluted chamber. For hand loaders, this is trouble."

Nope, it's the HK rifles that have fluted chambers. Although the fired cases look horrible, they are actually quite usable in my experience during the brief time that I was wringing-out an HK91. I really don't like that rifle....

"That's too bad though, because the FAL is recoil operated and thus, cast boolit friendly."

Nope, the FAL is gas operated, and again it's the HK rifles that are recoil-operated (and roller-locked). HOWEVER, my particular FAL refuses to co-operate with cast-bullet loads, unlike every other gas-operated rifle I've ever owned. The M1A works VERY well with cast loads, and I reckon my FAL will be restricted to jacketed-bullet loads for another thousand rounds or so, when I'll try some more cast-bullet experiments. Again the M1A turns out to be the best choice, this time for its versatility in ammunition. Mine functions with bullets from 150 to 220 grains, and speeds from about 1300 fps to the service-level jacketed loads (150 @ 2700).


"I wouldn't, at this stage of the game, be too awfully concerned about the shades of difference between this or that cartridge/weapon as I would be about the features of survivability pertinent to your location and strategy. I don't mean to sound snippy, just want to offer this in the spirit of helping a friend."


I agree 100%, and this is very useful advice! This reminds me of the saying that, "Amateurs talk equipment; professionals talk strategy and tactics."

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I like the looks and specs on the DSA FAL . . . what is the difference in type one or two receiver? But . . . does anybody else have trouble with cast in thier DSA FAL?

What is a "contoured barrel" is that a heavier barrel that has length wise "grooves" on the out side to help with cooling?

Paul you make some very good and wise suggestions, some of them I have down, others I need to implement . . .

For my wife it is not so much the need to have rapid fire capability, but I think it would be better to have larger capacity, than the standard 4-5 round capacity of most bolt guns that I'm aware of, do you have any suggestions?

What is meant by "range cards"?

My wife has very little rifle experience . . . I bought her the 700 ADL Youth back in 99, as she wanted to go hunting with me . . . she shot a box and a half of ammo through over the course of two range visits (I shot the 1st 10 !) and then it was discovered that she had skin cancer on her left forearm and went in and had it removed and then skin grafts . . . took quite awhile to heal, and she missed the deer season, never fired the rifle since . . . I loaned it to my nephew for his 1st two "youth hunting days" and then I sold it last summer . . . I tried to get her to shoot my shotgun this past summer after she got her ccw permit, which she is good with her Security Six, but she just could not shoulder my 311 w/extra butt plate . . . my wife is completely healed, cancer has not shown back up Praise the LORD!

We practice at times "scenario's" in the house with our carry guns, but have not done alot of outside stuff . . . I have some ideas, of "if" we had to leave, but now we are building/adding to the rear of our house which is our weakest link, since there 26' of sliding glass doors that go out to a covered porch which was sorta closed in before we bought it, we are going to put in slump blocks (concrete 4X8X16 solid blocks) to match the rest of our home, with a lot less windows, and keep those higher. From the back yard we have a small block wall courtyard about 20' deep, which I will build up with "shooting holes" as my wife calls them!

Our biggest challenge is water, as we don't have any rivers around here . . . nor our own well . . . but I'm planning on getting a diesel generator to run a well pump . . . where I work (local school) we have 17,500 gal water storage/holding tanks so that could last us for awhile . . . I also know where there is a windmill water pump for range cattle . . . but it is aways to get to it . . . 17 mi.! My old diesel car should run unless it takes a direct hit, or gets stolen! . . . and I keep extra diesel for it, and there is always water & ammo in it, plus I have a big EMT 1st aid kit in it at all times. A stock pile of non perishable food at home, and ammo, plus casting loading supplies to last a long time here at home . . . and I always carry a small flashlight with me, and my wife keeps one in her purse . . . but, I need to work on some of your other suggestions . . . also planning on some "silver coins"!

Our church has a 110 acre camp that borders the state forest, which can accommodate 150 kids in the summer for a week . . . our Pastor lives there full time, my big concern is the water supply, as it is marginal if we had 60 - 75 of us living up there full time, and the living in a dorm setting I understand could be very wearing on privacy . . . now we have about 40 bunk beds in two dorms, and 24 BB's in two more dorms, and a "A frame" with two bedrooms that we spread beds down in ever room to make everybody fit . . . there is no heat either (not much normally needed in the summer!:mrgreen:) A full kitchen dining facility, and 1000 gal tank of propane . . . and 10,000 gal of diesel, The pastor has backhoe, and large grader too . . .we would probably end up there if/when things got bad in the little village of 2,000 people that we live in.

Thanks, this is good info to digest!

Edit to add: Yesterday the church got together for our once a month printing of a local newspaper, and one guy made two sugestions on a rifle for my wife.
1. Marlin Camp 45
2. A Lever Action in 30-30 or 44 Mag, or 45 LC

What do you think?

How much higher MV will the Camp 45 have over a handgun?

Do you think the new Miha RCBS 270 hp mold I got coming would work in the Camp 45? or is it too long and heavy?
I already have MiHec H&G #503 Cramer Style Hollow Point for the 44 . . .

What is the highest capacity lever you know of?

I am anticipating getting either a 44 mag or 45LC in a revolver for myself anyways . . . but not sure about the longer range capabilities in a riffle . . .

Also to note: We routinly have winds over 20mph, (up to 50 mph this time of year!) so light bullets don't do well at further ranges . . .

[sagamore-one]

The difference between the type one and type two is a couple extra lightening cuts on the type one. Placed side by side it is hard to tell them apart. Type three is the heavier , less refined version used mainly in military applications . Just think in terms of first class, second class, and third class in degrees of refinement on a basic design.
Both my DSA Fn rifles will gobble up almost any ammo, including cast .
Metric pattern refers mainly to the magazine retaining system on the front of the magazine. Metric has a nub , inch pattern is a squarish block. Metric is the world standard, inch is sometimes hard to find. There are other changes , but magazine systems are your first clue as to whether inch or metric. Get the metric !!
Not sure about the term "contour". I would suspect that it refers to the barrel shape and diameter under the handguards. The standard barrel is sufficient.
There are Fal clones out there, some put together from kits with varying degrees of functionality and appearance. If in doubt... buy a complete rifle from DSA .

[pjh421]

Bruce,

Thank you for the kind words and thanks for clearing up my misunderstanding of the FAL, What do you think of the FNAR as mentioned in an above post in this thread? I went to their website and after looking it over and taking into consideration the good reputation of the BAR, I'm pretty much convinced I need to have one. Springfield Armory is right down the road from here. I know several people who have relatives who work there. I wouldn't be against buying an M1A or two. My wife would think that would be pretty cool (she keeps reassuring me that I can shoot my guns any time, even though they belong to her).

Shawn,

This is a great thread, thanks for starting it. Your wife sounds like a “keeper”.

A range card is simply a quick reference to information you need to engage targets of opportunity in a given sector of fire. They are of particular usefulness during periods of limited visibility when target acquisition/engagement methods you have come to rely upon will not work. Some of the items of information you may wish to include would be a North arrow to orient the card to the ground. It would be wise to include a lensatic compass with your carry gear. Mark your firing position on the card and then pick out 3 or 4 landmarks within its left and right limits such as the intersection of two roads or the tallest tree or a power line pole, etc. Shoot an azimuth to each of whichever landmarks you include and pace off the distance between them and the firing position. Mark any dead space (that is depressed areas of the land surface you cannot cover with direct fire which could be used to provide cover and concealment to an attacking force). At the bottom of the card make a table that lists the landmarks (targets) you have selected in order of their level of danger. Obviously a shallow creek which could be used as a route of ingress leading to a depression in the ground close to your defended area would be a higher priority target than say a boulder in the middle of a field. You get the idea. Also in your table record the sight settings necessary to accurately engage targets at each location from a semi-permanent rest you can construct and leave in place. We used to pound pegs into the ground at varying heights on which we would rest a rifle so as to be able to accurately input the elevation requirement for any given target. This keeps sight adjusting to a minimum when seconds count. Don't forget to write on the card which weapon the pegs or sight adjustment data is for. There are other things that can go on range cards but if you just make a few simple ones like this you will be miles ahead of not having anything.

Lets say a few words about signals. To keep from shooting each other, you and the missus need a far and a near recognition signal. White lights are out. They give your position away too easily. Use a challenge and password for the near signal. There should be an alternate password that indicates to the challenger that “I have been captured and we are coming for you. Shoot the people I'm with.” A far recognition signal could be as simple as communicating via radio. Others include popping a previously agreed-on smoke grenade, flare, maybe a compressed-air horn. I don't know, you'll have to use your imagination on that one. If you come home and there's trouble, maybe you two could have worked out a signal at a previous time such as a curtain hanging outside a window or the mailbox turned on its stand (if it has one) in an unusual direction. Just something to indicate trouble that doesn't require verbal communication.

Each firing position should have a basic first aid kit. Your EMT bag is great but if you have to go get it with a bullet in your neck or your car is on fire it kind of loses its shine.

You also kind of need to regard your plan with respect to different situations you may find yourself in. I realize you want to protect your home and belongings but aside from establishing a forward operating base, the defense is primarily used to temporarily consolidate forces, cross-level essentials and personnel, and reduce the combat power of the enemy through attrition. When you defend, you must also have a strategy to attack in force as well as run routine patrols to gather information concerning the enemy disposition and strength. It's generally accepted for planning purposes that an attacker needs a minimum of 3 times the personnel the defender has in order to overcome a well-prepared defense. If there's two of you, you're going to have your hands full with six attackers. This is not to say that your attackers would be “well trained” but other things come into play during defense operations. One of them is the need for constant security around not just your area of responsibility (in this case your property) but also in your area of interest (the surrounding properties of your neighbors, adjoining roads, etc.). You will both need sleep. Being on 50% security gets tough for just two people and that's just when you're not under attack. Before that happens, there should be discussion with your neighbors who could come to assist you and whom you could assist. This has got to be coordinated, and well. In general, the advantage is usually with the attacking force because in the absence of some sort of mission timetable, they can simply wait you out.

You are looking at a huge job. Recruiting the members of your church and community will obviously give you an advantage but without military training and a sense of commitment those same people can become quite a liability.

Keep us posted and if I can offer any advice I'd be happy to help.

Paul

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

sagamore-one,
Thank you for the info, good to hear that yours will function fine on cast![smilie=w:

I'm not looking for a cobbled together experiment of questionable parts, so I like the idea I can get a new FAL or M1A!

Paul,

Thank you for you time and information!

So would these "firing positions" be like from the front of my house, or the back, or would it be out by that tree that's 200 yards away at the edge of the road across the open field? Obviously it could apply to our church camp as well . . . I was talking with my wife about if it gets bad and there are groups out roaming looking for "supplies" that it will be hard just for the two of us to monitor, and that we don't want to just wait for them to knock down our door . . . so if it gets bad, we will need to join up with a group of like minded folks with our guns.

I'm not counting any of my immediate neighbors for help, as I'm the youngest on our dead-end street of townhouses, I'll be 44 next week, most are past 70, one is 93, my village was a developers dream to be a golf haven for retirees . . . it is mostly that, a third of the homes on my street are empty second homes, some young pip-squeaks like me have come into other areas of the village of 600 homes, but mostly you see wrinkled old golfers putting around in their golf carts!

The church members are another story, at least half a gun nuts! (probably have 20 "assault type" guns in .223) 5-6 are prior military, but in their 60's . . . the hard part is getting them to see the need to train, and be ready . . . I suggested a year ago, about with the church shootings that happen that we should have a plan to have one person in the balcony with a long gun, and that the pastor should give a signal like a false chapter and verse (a book that does not exist!) if he sees trouble from the pulpit, so the rest of us that carry can get into action, but nothing is implemented yet! Yes there are usually 8-10 concealed guns in our church all the time! Our "Dirty Dozen" the regulars that show up for Sun Eve & Wed evening are about 50 members . . .

We only recently (since Thanksgiving) have thought more on protecting our home better . . . and looking for ways to survive if our food and water sources were jeopardized, so alot of this is new to my way of thinking, I was content with my scoped .270 bolt, but have since thought, it would be nice to have other options to pick from, hence this thread.

I like the idea of being prepared . . . I need to protect my home, but if it seems to get to the point, we will have to move, and I need to get better prepared for that.

I figure that if I have a generator to supply electricity for a well, that will provide us with water, along with the pastors 10,000 gal tank of diesel . . . I'm working on learning the edible wild plants, and want to start actually harvesting, and eating them, so if we need to survive on them, we will have one less thing to stress about, as we will know what to eat, and how best to prepare it . . . rabbits are tasty too!:grin:

Anyone have any feedback on the idea of a Marlin Camp 45, or the levers?

Edit to add: Yes Paul my wife is a keeper! (And today is her B-day! & our 13th anniversary!) Just today after church she was joking with me that next Sunday I would be turning 44, so I said "So . . . I guess that means I need to buy a 44 mag!" and you know what her response was? she said "So . . . what do I get to buy then?" Ha Ha! No complaints on me buying guns!

[jsizemore]

123, If the 270 is making your shoulder sore after less then half a box of ammo, you need to go shooting with one of your neighbors that has a 308. A 150gr bullet in a 308 is going to recoil about the same as a 150 in a 270.

The camp 45 is a nice gun, but the price has really gone up on them when you can find them. If you are unsure about a round that shoots 1-1.5" groups at 100, then you ain't gonna be happy with a camp 45.

If your purpose is to buy a weapon in case the stuff hits the fan, then you need to have at least one weapon that matches your neighbors so you can share ammo and ammo making chores. And start stockpiling.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

123, If the 270 is making your shoulder sore after less then half a box of ammo, you need to go shooting with one of your neighbors that has a 308. A 150gr bullet in a 308 is going to recoil about the same as a 150 in a 270.

The camp 45 is a nice gun, but the price has really gone up on them when you can find them. If you are unsure about a round that shoots 1-1.5" groups at 100, then you ain't gonna be happy with a camp 45.

If your purpose is to buy a weapon in case the stuff hits the fan, then you need to have at least one weapon that matches your neighbors so you can share ammo and ammo making chores. And start stockpiling.

I saw a few on gunbroker, yes they have held or gained on price!

I'm not needing 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards, that was the example that 45.2 gave, I need to be able to hit 8" at 200 yards, prefer that both the gun & I can do better than that. A person (unfortunatly if it comes to that) is the target. I pray that I never have to kill another human, but if it is me or them . . . I'll do everything possible to make it them!

I'd rather stock pile ammo for the gun I buy, not just buy a gun so I can trade ammo with my friends, I'll share if it fits, but I'm not gonna go buy a .223 just because everybody else does.

[waksupi]

This is the range card I use.

http://www.cybersniper.com/rangec.gif

[BD]

There is a lot to be said for a good AR 15 and a choice of uppers. I won't be without one in .223, and I'm becoming fond of the .450 Bushmaster as well. They are easy to set up, configure, repair and accurize. They can be long or short, light or heavy, your choice of sights, lights, bells and whistles. Very ergonomic. Most anyone can shoot them well, including wives and kids. You can grab the rifle and 200 rounds and still accommodate a light pack. Parts, mags and ammo are available every where, and a lot of the folks I worry about will likely be bringing more with them.

To me the AR fills the same role in a long gun that the 1911 does in a handgun, and for most of the same reasons.
BD.

[Bloodman14]

BD makes a good point; make sure that the weapons you choose can be supported by 'captured' weapons. This would include M-16's/AR-15's, AK types, including SKS's, anything in .308, .45, 9mm, etc. Captured guns can be a source of parts, too. Range cards are made for the individual fighting position; make them for the forward positions, and for each individual 'fall back' position. Get some USGS survey maps for your region, and some books on using 'intersection and 'resection' to locate positions that can be used for cover/concealment by the 'bad guys'; it will also aid in communicating with your wife where the BG's are. If you have a surplus store around, get ahold of two manuals; the "Soldiers Manual and Trainers Guide for MOS 11B, 11C, 11H, and 11M Infantry" which is full of good 'grunt' info, and FM 21-76, the SURVIVAL GUIDE for the Armed Forces. Worth their weight in ammo. I still have mine from 20 years ago.

[Three44s]

I won't suggest an HK 91 because they are so expensive. But I do own one with a bunch of accessories ....... and like it very much.

If they were a poor rifle ....... would they fetch such a premium?


You have had a ton of suggestions for rifles and I'll just fill in the "holes" where I can.

About the Camp 45 ..... not a 200 yard rifle ..... but a darned handy gun all the same.

The lever guns ....... I'd strongly suggest a Marlin in .44 mag ..... your criteria of 8" @ 200 yds should be doable ...... I'd put a rail on top and install a Bushnel Holosight on it ..... but that's my favorite sight. The EOTech is even better but more expensive, one model is Night Vision compatible and if you went for either brand .... insist on a model that uses "AA" batteries. You asked about ammo capacity ... the longer the barrel .... more rounds ...... ball park, ten rounds.

Rossi makes a Puma, a Winchester 92 clone. A friend and life long gun nut who owns one considers it a better "92" than Winchester made. Browning also made it ...... and they are TOPS ... but very expensive just like original Winchesters. I have shot the above Puma in .44 mag and LIKED it very much ..... the only downside ..... can't top mount optics. But it makes a very good Peep sight gun!

I'd still consider the SKS or AK's ....... I own two SKS's and the detachable mags for them (not the AK style mags) are hard to insert in a rush. The non removable ones are more predictable. Look at the regulations on detachable mags and SKS's carefully.

You should moderate some of your dislike on the AR-15/.5.56 combo as well.

A rifle that's been largely missed here are the AR-10 family ..... yes, some mention but not enough.

The AR-10 and ilk are found in .243, .260 and .308 ........ a .308 will recoil about like a .270 but a .243 ...... not nearly as much. The .308 is a "marshal" cartridge ...... thus more "procurable" in a period of upheaval. The .260 would bridge the gap and give you much better reach with authority than a .243 but without quite as much recoil as a .308 .... though I doubt much less recoil than a .308. A .243 would certainly fetch respect @200 and more though.

I have shot the FAL's and I like my HK much better ....... especially it's sub group construction. The FAL is a much more "busy" design.

Just look at a schematic of the two.

If you did go for a FAL .... I'd go with a metric model.

The Garrand .......... I own one and if I ever sold it ........ my wife would probably divorce me! So, naturally by extension ..... the M1A1 with a detachable magazine is tops ... price aside. If you have a number of en blocs the Garrand is no small potatoes. Eight is ENOUGH! You get good at it and you'll be scrambling for ammo soon enough.

As per your .270 ....... I would strongly suggest you try the Simms Limbsaver recoil pad. And if that does not quite do the trick .... add an Edwards recoil reducer or similar to your buttstock and she'll be a ***** cat! You can cast for the .270 and reach that 200 yd. mark with it.

The Mosin's: I'd suggest a Mosin M38 ..... a carbine. It's kicks like hell ...... but it gives you 7.62X54R capability on a shoestring (another Marshall cartridge). Mine hits golf balls at 45 yds with .308" J-words with the issued sights.

My theory is not that all my rifles need to be cast boolit friendly .... but many should be ........ after all, you can only shoot one at a time!

But most of all, let's pray this discussion proves academic!!

Three 44s

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Thank you all so much for the input!

I will look into the different recoil pad suggestions, right now on my 270 is a factory pad of maybe 1/4" then it has a slip on uncle mikes which is a tad small that I got when I bought it, but never thought much about it until now . . . it is the next size smaller than I should have on it . . . that may be my problem . . .[smilie=b:

I'm no marksman for sure, I use to shoot my little youth model Rem 514 .22 when I was a kid, and take flying birds out of the air, but I really have not shot alot since, In the last year I shot my SP101, about 2500 times, (which I can hold a 8" group standing at 25 yards, but not much in rifle shooting . . . Off a rest I can keep my 270 in 3-3.5" at 100 yards . . . I'm sure it is not the rifle!

Just yesterday I was thinking that I may need to find a trainer and see if I can get some real training lessons . . .

I need to run to work . . .

[jlchucker]

45-70 Marlin levergun with a 405 gr cast boolit. Don't worry about a large-cap mag because your home invader, unless he's superman, won't survive after the first shot--and maybe not even then.

[sagamore-one]

Give Clint Smith at Thunder Ranch a look. Check out his website .
I have been several places for training and rate his as TOP . I took my son there for the Urban Rifle course. Son used an AR 15 , I used the Garand.
Second choice would be Gunsite... distant second choice. Been there 4 times.
Difference being , Clint uses a more one on one approach, Gunsite a more class as a whole approach. Was not always this way.

[45 2.1]

I'm not needing 1-1.5" groups at 100 yards, that was the example that 45 2.1 gave, I need to be able to hit 8" at 200 yards, prefer that both the gun & I can do better than that.

It's always preferable to have an accurate rifle and ammo........... because a human is holding it and shooting it......... sometimes under duress. At those times its not the rifle which fails to provide the hit, but it is the operator which is at fault for not doing so.

[StarMetal]

I won't suggest an HK 91 because they are so expensive. But I do own one with a bunch of accessories ....... and like it very much.

If they were a poor rifle ....... would they fetch such a premium?


You have had a ton of suggestions for rifles and I'll just fill in the "holes" where I can.

About the Camp 45 ..... not a 200 yard rifle ..... but a darned handy gun all the same.

The lever guns ....... I'd strongly suggest a Marlin in .44 mag ..... your criteria of 8" @ 200 yds should be doable ...... I'd put a rail on top and install a Bushnel Holosight on it ..... but that's my favorite sight. The EOTech is even better but more expensive, one model is Night Vision compatible and if you went for either brand .... insist on a model that uses "AA" batteries. You asked about ammo capacity ... the longer the barrel .... more rounds ...... ball park, ten rounds.

Rossi makes a Puma, a Winchester 92 clone. A friend and life long gun nut who owns one considers it a better "92" than Winchester made. Browning also made it ...... and they are TOPS ... but very expensive just like original Winchesters. I have shot the above Puma in .44 mag and LIKED it very much ..... the only downside ..... can't top mount optics. But it makes a very good Peep sight gun!

I'd still consider the SKS or AK's ....... I own two SKS's and the detachable mags for them (not the AK style mags) are hard to insert in a rush. The non removable ones are more predictable. Look at the regulations on detachable mags and SKS's carefully.

You should moderate some of your dislike on the AR-15/.5.56 combo as well.

A rifle that's been largely missed here are the AR-10 family ..... yes, some mention but not enough.

The AR-10 and ilk are found in .243, .260 and .308 ........ a .308 will recoil about like a .270 but a .243 ...... not nearly as much. The .308 is a "marshal" cartridge ...... thus more "procurable" in a period of upheaval. The .260 would bridge the gap and give you much better reach with authority than a .243 but without quite as much recoil as a .308 .... though I doubt much less recoil than a .308. A .243 would certainly fetch respect @200 and more though.

I have shot the FAL's and I like my HK much better ....... especially it's sub group construction. The FAL is a much more "busy" design.

Just look at a schematic of the two.

If you did go for a FAL .... I'd go with a metric model.

The Garrand .......... I own one and if I ever sold it ........ my wife would probably divorce me! So, naturally by extension ..... the M1A1 with a detachable magazine is tops ... price aside. If you have a number of en blocs the Garrand is no small potatoes. Eight is ENOUGH! You get good at it and you'll be scrambling for ammo soon enough.

As per your .270 ....... I would strongly suggest you try the Simms Limbsaver recoil pad. And if that does not quite do the trick .... add an Edwards recoil reducer or similar to your buttstock and she'll be a ***** cat! You can cast for the .270 and reach that 200 yd. mark with it.

The Mosin's: I'd suggest a Mosin M38 ..... a carbine. It's kicks like hell ...... but it gives you 7.62X54R capability on a shoestring (another Marshall cartridge). Mine hits golf balls at 45 yds with .308" J-words with the issued sights.

My theory is not that all my rifles need to be cast boolit friendly .... but many should be ........ after all, you can only shoot one at a time!

But most of all, let's pray this discussion proves academic!!

Three 44s

The 260 has a lot less recoil then the 308. I own one in a light weight custom bolt rifle and if you didn't know the caliber you would swear you were shooting a 243. Even any of the military 6.5's loaded hot don't have nearly the recoil of a 308. If you would like to compare a smaller caliber that has about the same recoil as a 308, that would be the 7mm-08 in my opinion. Now all these calibers in a semi auto rifle will change their perceived recoil due to the type of action mechanism and bolt mass that is recoiling.

About the only criticism I have on the HK 91 is that is is heavy. The FAL's are fine rifles. They did beat the U.S. M 14 in the rifle trials, but at that time the U.S. was reluctant to purchase a foreign made rifle for their military.

Another superb rifle that is often overlooked is the French MAS 49/56.

[TCFAN]

I know that you want a auto rifle, but if it was me i would go down to Wal-Mart and buy a Marlin 336W in 30-30.I would put a good quilty 4X scope on it and lay in a good supply of Hornady ammo.

I would sight it in at 200yds.It would not be a problem to hit out to 300yds with practice.

30-30 ammo is avaible everywhere.If you have to defend against a organized army you will loose no matter what rifle you choose.Against a maurading band of scavengers a 30-30 I think would serve you well...............Terry

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I actually thought about a 45-70 about 6 months ago . . . but had to tell myself, "self that sure is gonna kick more than that Rem 700 in .270! and your a wimp" I think I need to get the right recoil pad on it and then go from there . . . I originally only put it on as a butt extender, as I have long arms, and wanted a longer pull!

I'll check on those two training sites . . . this morning while out driving, I thought maybe I should call Tom, one of the guys that gave our ccw course, as he had offered to do "extra" training for a fee by the hour, pay as we go type thing . . . not sure if he covers riffles or not . . . a call should clear that up! I mostly need to make sure that my form or style of shooting is right, and if not to correct it, before I practice more the wrong way, why reinforce the incorrect method! Hard for a 44 year old guy who has been around guns on and off my whole life, to admit I don't really know how to shoot! But mostly I have just put the gun to my shoulder and pull the trigger till it goes boom!

I'll look for those books/manuals, paper still works after we loose electricity!

I don't mind someone telling me I'm wrong, as long as they can tell me what is right, and why, Constructive criticism is how I learn best, show me where I failed, and how I can fix it!

I still like the idea of a .308, even as it may not be quite as plenteous as the .223, but seems more popular than the .260. I also realize that the auto loader is gonna soak up some power to function the action, and gun total weight will also effect felt recoil. I also realize that "in the heat of the moment" recoil and muzzle blast can disappear, like in hunting . . . I don't even feel my 12 gauge shooting at a rabbit, but at the range I sure do!

I just started hunting this Jan more to increase my practice, and to get away from boring paper . . . I started out with my Ruger 10-22, but most of the rabbits would take off running, and wouldn't stop until 80-150 yards out . . . I did not have a lot of success . . . so I switched to the 12ga, and catch them before they get too far out!

I was thinking this morning . . . maybe I should switch back to the 10-22 . . . even a miss is more fun than sitting at work! (Eventually I may get it figured out again)What do you think?

Also I have a 3X12 scope on top of it mounted with see thru sights so I can use my iron sights, which do you think I would have better success with? (I was using the scope, but hard to get on the rabbit . . .)

The one downside I can see for my wife getting a lever, is slower reload capability (no mags)


I'm still learning alot!

[Three44s]

The magazines are expensive and ten rounders I believe the largest but another thought would be the Remington 760 series .... not an autoloader but a pump gun. Detachable magazines and most speciemens shoot better than reason would dictate. Many caliber choices and if you had a heavier caliber and your wife a less recoil prone one ........ if something happened that caused either of you to have to use the spouses gun there would no cross training.

Also, Remington makes the 870 shotgun in a configuration with the .223 and AR mags.

I noticed that you shot birds out of the air with a .22 rifle. ....... that's NO SMALL FEAT!

I would say you should let yourself be proud of your prior accomplishments and not beat yourself up.

I would suggest the shooting schools most certainly but first ..... try this at length ... it will give you a leg up on getting the most out of your bucks at a class .......

Get yourself a bunch of golf balls.

Use a .22 rifle ..... and a .22 revolver ........

Move in CLOSE ...... forget big groups at 25 yds. ....... we want to REBUILD your self esteem .... you'll have total blast in no time ........ gradually move back but before you do ..... bring on the "big" guns but don't over do them ........ work mostly with the .22's ........ after all basics are the foundation of your shooting and a .22 is actually better ..... you've got no recoil worries and also much less strain on your wallet.

Don't move back until you get very good at dancing your reactionary targets.

****************************

Other than it not being a Marshall cartridge ...... a 30-30 lever gun would be very good. Good performance from either j-words or boolits ..... enough range and accuracy for your 200 yd criteria.

You mentioned a .45-70 and backed off due to recoil. Remember, you can load it to Trap Door specs or upto Winchester '86 specs in a modern Marlin lever.

Also, don't forget the Marlin .444 .... there you've got a .44 mag long on steriods ... uses .44 bullets or boolits!

Yes, the levers by and large are slow to reload but they are more politically correct than mag swappable semi-autos.

And that may be important for the following reason:

We don't know what the future holds. And depending on what sort of SHTF we get into, your Semiautos may well need to be really hidden for a REALLY RAINY DAY ......

But maybe ...... a "Hunting" gun like a bolt gun or lever may be overlooked for a bit.

My strategy is many different sorts of guns so I can pick and chose what may pass in the event of being caught or seen if I am just out and about ...... all the while keeping the "heavy artillery" out of sight for a bigger moment or dire need.

I figure my old Mosins will get "laughed at" ........ and they also make good guns for "guys that show up" without a lead flipper as well.


Three 44s

[mike in co]

I

Edit to add: Yesterday the church got together for our once a month printing of a local newspaper, and one guy made two sugestions on a rifle for my wife.
1. Marlin Camp 45
2. A Lever Action in 30-30 or 44 Mag, or 45 LC

.



while a camp 45 is nice....you can buy an ar for what one will cost you today.

pass..

go back to your original question and clearly define what you want.

all else is hogwash till then.

mike in co

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Thanks Three 44s !

Mike, I'm still looking for a semi in .308 I like both the FAL & M1A, I need to get one of each in my hands, and hopefully shoot both, and make a decision . . .

But it seems that a 308 is gonna be too much for my wife, but I still want a 30 cal or bigger . . . prefer a mag fed gun, but . . . looking for ideas . . . willing to possible drop the mag requirement for her . . . this board has a very wide audience with vast amounts of knowledge. When I do shoot the 308, I will certainly let my wife try it, and maybe she will surprise me! (She doesn't mind the 357 mag!)

I measured my Rem last night and it is a 13.25" pull factory, and I actually have a Pachmyer 1/2" slip-on (Not Uncle Mikes) so it is 13.75" lop . . .If I measure my arm from the elbow area when it is bent at a 90 degree, to the 1st joint on my finger it is 16" . . . I was reading that a too short lop could also result in excessive felt recoil.

[mike in co]

an armalite ar10 t will out shoot an m1a and do it for a longer time period.

a wood stock adds wieght and no advantages. it may cause flyer shots. if bedded will require rebedding at 1009-1200 rds. yes i owned one. it never shot as well as my ar10t.

i agree with bruce on the m1a socom...an advertising pc of krap.

i have not shot an fal....it has a great rep and been used all over the world. mags are cheap.


so for you one of those two

again for your wife go with an ar15....cheap mags, cheap (well relitively) ammo...they shoot well out of the box. anything from 16" and up,,,,,i like the bush master 18" disapator...full 20" sight radius, but shorter oal.....

on any rifle you need to decide if accuracy is more important than easy of cleaning. as in chrome lined bore over match bbls.

lever guns take too long to reload...go with a mag fed gun.


mike in co

[sagamore-one]

I fully agree with Mike in co, a decent ar15 is quite acceptable for the recoil sensitive. It is also a fairly good choice for those who are not as motivated to master a larger more powerful weapon. Also a decent platform for the beginner.
But no matter what you do with an ar 15 , it is still an ar15. I personally choose to utilize the most powerful weapon that I can control. 308 is the bare bones lower limit with the 30-06 as near the top of my list. Good semi autos are available in both calibers.
......... I took my 17 year old son to Thunder Ranch for Urban Rifle training. He was preparing for the military and used an ar15, I used the Garand. In one week we fired over 1200 rounds of 223 and over 1300 rounds of 30-06 . Neither of us got "beat up" by recoil.
We learned that the 223 has limitations and the 30's have other limitations.
I can do anything with my Garand that a 223 can do. The 223 cannot do everything my Garand can do.

[mike in co]

I can do anything with my Garand that a 223 can do.

ok shoot 10 rounds without reloading....or 20 or 30 or 45 or 100...beta mag

no they are not the same .......

but there is a reason no one issues a large case 30 as an issue rifle( not special issue).

if one thinks the 223 is wimpy then go to a 7.62x39 ar, but you will have to chase the bad guy for more ammo.

and a 6.8 has 80% of the energy of a 308 in an ar15 platform...again long term ammo is an issue


mike in co

[pjh421]

Was looking at AR-10s on the Armalite website yesterday after reading all these posts from those of us who are fascinated by equipment ;-)

OK I am too but I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Anyway, after looking at the Infantry model I think I'm in love.

Shawn, I wrote a good description of how to select and prepare firing positions but when I went to post it, it disappeared. Guess I should type long posts in Word first, then copy and past. I might be in the information age but I'm not from the information age.

Paul

[44mag1]

just get a tank with a mini gun on it

[markshere2]

My SKSs ( I am up to 3 now) shoot straight.
Rugged simple and cheap to buy.
Ammo is plentiful and jacketed 7.62X39 knocks holed in 3/8 steel reactionary targets.

OEM mags hold 10 rounds and are dead nuts reliable with all my reloads and cheap russian ammo.
Stripper clips reload very fast.

.30 cal means all the boolit moulds can fill it.

You can now buy a back receiver cover that locks down and holds a picatinny rail SOLID for scopes/ lasers/ lights.

[Frank]

markshere2 said
You can now buy a back receiver cover that locks down and holds a picatinny rail SOLID for scopes
What cover do you recommend? A lot of guys complain about those types of mounts.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Mike, the one thing I like about a wood stock is that it can relativley easily be cut down, shortened . . . but your right on all the rest . . . Thank you for reminding me again (you mentioned it in your 1st post here) about the AR10 . . . I agree with Paul, it kinda makes me want one, I also like the FAL . . . but now need to find one to try out . . . !

And . . . I'll try one of the guys at churches .223, and see what my wife thinks . . . ! I agree I should not just dismiss it with out trying, as they do have a large following . . . we'll see . . .

Still not interested in "clips"

Paul, I agree that I need more pre-paredness training/preperation, but not sure what it could hurt to have another rifle . . . :mrgreen:

Looking for those manuals/booklets that were mentioned earlier . . .

[pjh421]

Shawn,

Point taken.

Paul

[mike in co]

[QUOTE=123.DieselBenz;857591]
Still not interested in "clips"

QUOTE]

just to get you back on the straight and narrow..

ar's/m14's/m1a's/fal's do not take CLIPS, they use removable box magazines or MAGS.

garqands use enblock clips or CLIPS.


NO THEY ARE NOT THE SAME....you are in the gun world, use the correct term.

[mike in co]

you said:"I have been re-thinking my home defense weapons . . . in the case of an economic collapse"


how close is your nearest neighbor ??


if residentual, then of the three you listed an ak plain and simple.

the other two are too big bulky and too much for short range work. and the ammo will cost twice as much.

so if a true short range home defense gun then the ak is it of the three you listed...


if you change the criteria the answer may change

aks are cheap as we speak, ammo cost is comming down, its no usgi, but plenty around, and it should fit the wife and recoil should not be an issue. its 30 cal and twice the bullet weight of std ar ammo.


mike in co

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Mike,

We live in a concrete town house, there are five hooked together on our side of the dead end street which ends at a fairway for the golf course, and eight on the other side of the street . . . to our East there are a bunch of empty grassed lots, that the original developer had big plans for 30 years ago . . . and are zoned as "Multiple dwellings" like out town homes . . . but will probably never get built on, as there are only a few water hook ups left in town, . . . this bunch of empty lots are 600' square (I paced it off) and our home is about in the center on the west edge of these empty lots, so 200 yards (600') to a 6' high solid fence surrounding the golf courses maintenance building and yard, (which is about 300' square) then another 500' past them across the front of the club house, (So I have 1100' clear view to the east) to the North is a fairway and about 600' to a row of single family homes on a different non connecting street . . . to our West is our street, then the row of 8 townhouse, and another section of the golf course, about 250' to our South is the road that out street hooks onto, and there are single family homes on the South side of that street.

Whew! That was a mouth full!

Each the the five town house on my side of the street have a 4' high "courtyard" wall which the width (40') of each home, and 20' from the building . . . so they could offer some cover . . . going either way, if we are not dilligent about keeping the BG's away from a distance . . .

We have been having a bunch of cross border "conflicts" in the last few weeks, which I just heard about on Tuesday! (I don't have a TV, and don't listen to the Radio, or even get a regular newspaper!) Less than a week ago about 25 miles from here a rancher was gunned down on his own property by we suspect someone in the drug business did this . . . Border Patrol followed the tracks to the border . . . http://www.kpho.com/news/22983467/detail.html others have been beaten, tied up . . . generly a unhappy time! Most of this is related to the Mexicam drug lords running "mules" up here to smuggle their drugs for them, just this morning I was out rabbit hunting 1/2 mile from our village when I saw a "trail" that I found last week with about eight sets of tracks headed North, Today, there were two fresher sets headed South . . . yesterday we had a sprinkle of rain! I don't know who they are, but I'm pretty sure that they are not here legally.

Yes, one reason I selected an AK for the short list was size fit for my wife . . . and less recoil for wife . . . and I can buy 3 AK's for the Price of one AR10, FAL, or M1A . . .

[mike in co]

it sounds liek it would be foolish for anyone to come in from the cc side as its open and you have a hunting rifle.
so the ak is good to go.....

now a fire fight around a house is pretty iffy...walls are not solid....do you have brick ?

the 4 ft wall out a ways is good....till they start shooting from it....


if really worried......consider re-enforcing some amount of the house perimeter with "decorative"
brick.
my stick house has a basement and the front has several ft of brick......need some on the north side and back....if and when.

steel plate helps but id sorta crude and obvious....


mike in co

[BarryinIN]

Of the discussed rifles, I've had: M1A, M1 Garand in .30-06 and .308, HK 91, AR-10, FAL, and AKs.

I shot the M1A in Highpower, but hardly ever shoot it now. It was my dream gun for a long time before buying one, but after getting one, some of the charm wore off. For a match/accuracy rifle, they can be accurate, but it takes some money and needs upkeep. For a walking around rifle, I think they are clumsier than a Garand even though they are a little lighter. There is something about that square-cornered mag and the location it sticks out that makes it seem like it catches or bangs into everything. I notice it more on the M1A than others, except the AK.
The trigger is great, or can be.
The sights are great.
I think it looks good.
I have never owned a short one, but I wouldn't go under an 18" barrel on one. I know two people who had 18" models and traded them in on 16" rifles when they came out. One traded back to an 18" and the other was looking the last I knew. I don't know the details, but didn't ask. I figured that told me enough.

The HK91 was expensive. This was before the cheaper copies were everywhere. It was accurate, but the trigger was so awful that it took a lot of concentration to get it. The sights were pretty good, but took a special tool to adjust them easily.
It worked, and would probably feed ammo the others might not. It also recoiled harder than any of them, which was "enhanced" by the narrow stock and buttplate, and threw brass a long way even with the ejection port buffer. Contrary to what I've heard people say, the brass is reloadable after being fired in an HK. It just looks dirty forever.
I thought the ergonomics were lacking. Nothing was quite where it should be.

My AR-10 is an ArmaLite. It is extremely accurate, and has a great trigger. Mine is the big 24" heavy barrel model, so isn't the handiest, but other models aren't bad.
Recoil is milder than any other .308 I've fired.
With a flat top upper receiver, it is probably the easiest of the named rifles to mount a scope on if you want.
My only reservation about the AR10 compared to the others is that since they never really saw military service (aside from some Dutch, Portuguese, or Sudanese versions from long ago that might not even share any parts) so they don't have the long-term durability history. Maybe they are fine, though.
Mags get funny here. Not all AR10s use the same mag, and some are more readily available and/or cheaper than others.

My FAL is a Century Arms parts gun. Apparently I got a rare Century that works. The parts in mine are extremely worn, so I think the fact it does work is a testament to the design.
I really like it, and was looking at getting a DSA FAL a while back before I found two revolvers I had to have.
The trigger is OK. The sights are pretty good. It always works and nothing has broken. Mags are available and cheap.
I like the adjustable gas port that lets me set it as low as it will function to save beating the rifle, or crank it up if it were to get filthy.
They always looked long and clumsy to me, but don't feel that way in use. I don't think they are as long as they look. What many don't realize is how narrow and slim they are.
If I had to pick just one magazine fed semiauto .308, I'd take the FAL.

The AK is a different animal.
I really don't like them much, but have one because I wanted to stay familiar with the world's most common rifle. For that reason, I bought the cheapest I could find (a Romanian) because I felt it best represented the average AK.
It's handy. It works. It uses cheap ammo. That's the good stuff.
Really, I don't think the negatives are as bad as they are usually made out to be. "Experts" complain that the cartridge is only good to about 300 yards...but how far will you really be shooting? They slam the accuracy....but again, how much do you need? And mine does surprising well. Everything I've tried goes into 3 MOA, which is about what my issue-grade Garands will do with LC GI ball ammo. The sights aren't as good as the others named here, but there are worse sights on factory rifles. The safety is clumsy, but the Russians didn't design it to be used like we do. Their idea is that the safety went off when boots hit the ground and people controlled their trigger fingers.
It is what it is.
My biggest concern is ammo in the long-term. There is brass-cased reloadable ammo, but most is steel-cased Berdan primed. And almost all of it comes from offshore. I don't like depending on that. As it is now, and was even before the post-election ammo scare, AK ammo goes up every time the boat from Russia (or Romania or Hungary or China or wherever) is two weeks late, so what will happen if/when they quit shipping it for any number of reasons?

One more thing: When the AK comes up, people always praise them for how long they can run dirty. Yeah, but...
First, they might run longer dirty than some, but they do choke eventually. I've seen it in classes. So they may run dirty a little longer, but they don't run forever.
Second, do you really need to go as long as possible without cleaning? If Rifle A goes 5,000 rounds between cleanings, and Rifle B goes 5,500 rounds, will you need that edge? We want every edge we can get, and reliability is paramount, but when it gets down to fine differences we need to weigh how much we value them.

So of these, what do I use most?
A .308 Garand.
I know you aren't interested in clips, but hear me out. They aren't so bad. They can be carried anywhere, even a jeans pocket (a .308 box magazine gets uncomfortable shoved in a pocket) . If I should ever have to grab the rifle in a hurry, I can shove a few clips in my pockets and probably do OK. If taking a .308 mag-fed rifle, I might get one mag jammed into a pocket somewhere.
I keep a Garand as a truck gun and have loaded clips in cubbyholes all over the truck- where no magazine would go.
They aren't that much slower. Since they eject when empty, you only have to shove another in. Remember, if you should need to shoot fast enough that time matters, you are bouncing and recovering from recoil and the shots aren't exactly pouring out. You can reload quick enough that split time between shots won't be that far off.
And the best thing about clips to me is that it slims the rifle down. Of course that makes it handier to carry, but helps in other ways too. It may be a long rifle, but it's fairly trim which can help with transporting. I keep a Garand in a compartment of the SUV where an AR15 wouldn't fit because it's too tall.

I try to take some type of defensive shooting class at least once a year. Last year I took a carbine class, but I used a .308 Garand this time. An AR15 would have been easier and I've used them before in classes. But a Garand is my truck gun and I often have one handy around home so it made sense to use it. I was afraid I might drag the class down, so brought an AR to switch to rather than do that to the others. I didn't need it. I used the Garand the entire class and did fine. I kept up. I made my hits, even close rapid ones. I kept ammo in the rifle. It did fine. It would have been easier with a box magazine, but not necessary.
I think the Garand can still keep up. At least.

[Crash_Corrigan]

I had an old Mauser 98/22 by Brno in 8 MM. It was ugly, heavy and had lousy sights. I converted it to 6.5 x 55 MM Sweede and it is a beauty. Not a gun I would like to have to carry all day but accurate out past 250 yds with light recoil.

Capacity is only 5 rounds but you can hand feed extras after you fire a shot. With a decent scope it is a very effiecient weapon.

I also have a CZ bolt rifle in .223 with a Leupold scope. I have consistently hit man sized target steel at 365 yds with groups in the 10" range. Again only 5 rounds but it really gets out there and is very easy to shoot and carry.

Then there is my M-1 Garand. I load paper patched cast boolits in it and I am getting 6 inch groups at 250 yds and velocities of over 2100 FPS in cast without leading. It has more than enuf firepower for maurauding bands of Zombies or anyone else and will take them down. Ammo is available and I can make plenty of it at reasonable costs. I have rapid fired 3 clips a minute with this rifle and achieved good accuracy at 200 yds with all shots hitting the gong. This is 24 well aimed shots at 200 yds. Do I forsee a need for a faster firing weapon than that? Hardly.

For closer in work I have a Winchester '94 in 30-30 loaded with cast boolits. Out to 150 yds it will hit man sized targets with authority. Small and light and easy to handle and shoot.

The mandatory 12 pump shotgun is represented also in a Norinco Model 97 clone of the Winchester Trench Shotgun from WW I.

For your Lady I might suggest a lever action .44 Mag or .45 Colt rifle with a set of holo sights. For yourself the M-1 Garand with loaded down cast boolits that recoil like a very light .243 but are accurate and can be spewn out quickly if needed.

We all have two things, one of which is an opinion. My .02 cents.

[BruceB]

I'll be jiggered.

If BarryinIN and I sat down over a few cool ones, it would be to discuss hockey or wimmin or something like that....because I agree with EVERYTHING he just said except in detail, and his list of rifles that he's used is pretty-much the same as my list!

I've long thought that the Garand system (with clips instead of magazines) has a lot of positives for non-military shooters. If the situation is going downhill fast, the clips are DISPOSABLE, and they can also be kept loaded essentially forever. Buy a bunch of them, keep them loaded, and you're set. Pick the empties up if you have time, of course. As Barry said, almost any pocket can carry a loaded clip if need be.

On the personal level, my taste runs SLIGHTLY more to the M-14 than to the Garand, but that's a minor point. I used a pair of M-14s as truck rifles in the Arctic, and found that the detachable mag was valuable for fast reaction time....same as my #4 Enfields in my pre-M-14 days. However, a Garand also served in that role occasionally, and it wasn't much different for loading speed. I'd never contemplate mounting a scope on an M1A, as the potential problems are legion. I HAVE mounted a scope on my DSA FAL, by using the DSA mount. That was dead-easy, highly satisfactory, and should be considered if a scope is in the plans for your "service rifle".

Target-quality accuracy doesn't matter to me, and in the next day or two I expect to receive my steel IPSC silhouette, made full-size (old style, with "head") out of 3/8" AR500 plate. This should withstand jacketed service loads at 300-400 yards, and shrug off cast loads at almost any distance. Reliable hits on that target will suffice for my purposes.

I do like the .308 cartridge, and for now at least, brass is readily available...but stock up NOW!

I dislike the HK91, although it's a well-made and reliable rifle. I also don't care much for the AR10, having had an original Netherlands-made example 'way back when. Maybe the new ones are better...I sure hope so. A friend has a new DPMS in .260, and he's having issues with it.

When push comes to shove, my go-to rifle will be an M1A, closely followed by the FAL. I do enjoy my .223 AR15 and Mini-14, but if the shooting is for keeps I want the .308.......BUT THE GARAND WILL DO, AND DO VERY WELL!!!!!!!!!!!

Barry, a WELL-written screed, sir!

[BarryinIN]

BruceB- Thanks. And while it might not have been done simultaneously, we probably have shared some cold ones at the computer knocking this subject around!

[mike in co]

ya two are a bunch of relics wallowing in the past.......


chit bruce will clean my clock now for sure......


ahhhh bruce, can i buy ya a beer...maybe a six pack.....

first bruce...the current armalite ar10's will run rings around m14/m1a and garands.


no mater how fast you are with a garand, with todays 25 rd m14/ar10 mags...we load once for every three on your side.
we load from the bottom so as to not expose ourselves to fire...garands load from the top....an issue.

so the m14/ar10 are good, but over kill for his situtation........and ammo is twice the cost of ak ammo. you can buy boxer primed brass...rp sells it.


if he really wants a 308..a 20"ar10t would be great with a small scope or dot.....oh and someone makes wood stocks for the ar15....and they make all kinds of adjustable stocks and they fit ak's too.

ducking
mike in co

[BruceB]

Hey, no need to duck!

I grant you that I am a dinosaur, and probably Barry is too, but by gum we are NOT plant-eaters! I suspect we both well realize that time has moved on, but for OUR purposes, the rifles we enjoy and trust are working very well indeed.

Certainly, the average AR10 is superior in accuracy to the average M1A, and that's very much appreciated by those who like the rifle. For my purposes, the M1A is "accurate enough". I refer you now (gotta brag a bit) to the fact that my M1A was sufficiently accurate to win the little "Long Range Match" at the last Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot...five hits for five shots at a 14"x16" gong at 417 yards, WITH a cast-bullet load and FROM a field position (sitting) with iron sights, no sling, and peering through 66-year-old eyeballs.

That, friend Mike, is good enuff for this oldtimer.

Yep, we are wallowing in the past, no doubt about it. The thing is, not only do we know it, we are ENJOYING it! I've studied military rifles for decades, owned, loaded-for and shot virtually all of the major designs from the beginning of the self-contained cartridge, and the ones I own today are the distilled essence of what I found out over the years. (One thing I found out was that I STILL need a Trap-Door Springfield...how's THAT for wallowing in the past?)

No problemo, Mike. You shoot yours and be happy, and we'll do the same with ours. It's all fun, until the fire alarm rings, anyway.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Mike,

The house is built out of what we call "slump blocks" which are basically 4X8X16 decorative concrete blocks that look like they were taken out of the mold too soon, to look like adobe blocks . . . I believe that they are hollow . . . what I mentioned earlier about my building project on the back will be with solid 8" thick blocks. Inside we have 1.5" of foam insulation, and drywall . . .

This is the front of our house from the street, 55' to front door.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Sunsites/FrontLookingENE.jpg

This is looking North up our street, we live on the right, past the one house on a double lot on the corner, then there are two empty lots, then our town houses . . .
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Sunsites/SunsitesAZ-MyRd.jpg

Looking out our back yard:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Sunsites/Listings014.jpg

Thanks Barry! I appreciate the input.

[smilie=s:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

[QUOTE=123.DieselBenz;857591]
Still not interested in "clips"

QUOTE]

just to get you back on the straight and narrow..

ar's/m14's/m1a's/fal's do not take CLIPS, they use removable box magazines or MAGS.

garqands use enblock clips or CLIPS.


NO THEY ARE NOT THE SAME....you are in the gun world, use the correct term.


Mike, I was responding to Marks post about "stripper clips" in the sks . . .I know the difference, and believe I have used the correct terminology.

But I do see where I did not include his name, so you might have thought I was replying to you, as I put your name in the first sentence . . . I'm sorry if I confused you, or others.

I do appreciate you and all the others who have taken the time to post here.

[mike in co]

Hey, no need to duck!

I grant you that I am a dinosaur, and probably Barry is too, but by gum we are NOT plant-eaters! I suspect we both well realize that time has moved on, but for OUR purposes, the rifles we enjoy and trust are working very well indeed.

Certainly, the average AR10 is superior in accuracy to the average M1A, and that's very much appreciated by those who like the rifle. For my purposes, the M1A is "accurate enough". I refer you now (gotta brag a bit) to the fact that my M1A was sufficiently accurate to win the little "Long Range Match" at the last Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot...five hits for five shots at a 14"x16" gong at 417 yards, WITH a cast-bullet load and FROM a field position (sitting) with iron sights, no sling, and peering through 66-year-old eyeballs.

That, friend Mike, is good enuff for this oldtimer.

.

yep the big difference between you and me...i cannot shoot in any position but prone or off a bench/support. i will admit, with no shame, bruce can shoot, and has done a ton of work to get his rifle to shoot cast. me, i was quite happy to hit the gong 5 for 5 from the bench...using a vintage finn m39 and 210 gr boolits...it was fun.


i still think for his home, his surroundings, ak's and his hunting rifle will do. he needs good optics to view the one long shot he has to id friend or foe.

mike in co

[BarryinIN]

I will agree with that. For most people, a "deer rifle" and an AK or SKS will probably handle almost anything people buy a "black rifle" for, from one shot at 300 yards to 30 shots across the yard. Such problems may be easier solved with different guns, but they are certainly solveable with those.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

i still think for his home, his surroundings, ak's and his hunting rifle will do. he need good optics to few the one long shot he has to id friend or foe.

mike in co

I had not thought of getting some high power optics, GREAT Idea! I have two pair of bino's, one is a cheapy 16X32 (188 ft @ 1000 yards) the other is an old pair I inherited from my Father 7X35 (578 ft @ 1000 yards) What do you think I should have?

When I woke up this morning I thought . . . If I bought 2 AK's . . . to use around the house/village, and . . . a 308 (Probably either a FAL or AR10) Then I would have a longer range rifle, if we ended up having to go to the camp . . . and I could "loan" my AK to one of my "Church Brothers" if they needed a semi . . .

I am planning on mounting something like the Trijicon Reflex or a low power (under 3X) ACOG on whatever we end up with . . .

A concern I have with the AK is there seem to be so many differences . . . most of them seem to be a mix of parts . . . is that a problem? Should that bother me? Who make a good one?

[mike in co]

I had not thought of getting some high power optics, GREAT Idea! I have two pair of bino's, one is a cheapy 16X32 (188 ft @ 1000 yards) the other is an old pair I inherited from my Father 7X35 (578 ft @ 1000 yards) What do you think I should have?

When I woke up this morning I thought . . . If I bought 2 AK's . . . to use around the house/village, and . . . a 308 (Probably either a FAL or AR10) Then I would have a longer range rifle, if we ended up having to go to the camp . . . and I could "loan" my AK to one of my "Church Brothers" if they needed a semi . . .

I am planning on mounting something like the Trijicon Reflex or a low power (under 3X) ACOG on whatever we end up with . . .

A concern I have with the AK is there seem to be so many differences . . . most of them seem to be a mix of parts . . . is that a problem? Should that bother me? Who make a good one?


just spend some serious cash on quality....so you can look without pointing a gun..........is there a window where you can observe that long range area.....maybe a spoting scope.

the issue with most ak/sks/s is the rear dust cover is a loose fit, not ideal for mounting anything.

a forward mount on the forearm or gastube replacment mount.

i shoot mine( one sks. 2 ak's) with iron sights.
they do make a side rail mount and base for the aks....if you can get one with a rail then anything could be mounted.

my personal choice is an sks with detachable mags. longer sight radius, heavier bbl and ak mags. the chinese made some but all i have found is the short 16 bbl para trooper version.
i'm not an expert on ak's. you can buy from 300 and up. you can buy usa built from forgein kits, of full forgien. maybe someone will add that info.

mike in co....there must be an ak.com os sks.com site some where

[waksupi]

If the dust cover is loose on an AK, remove, and just give the rear a whack, to bend it in a bit. The tool kit for an AK consists of a hammer, and vice grips.

[pjh421]

Well thanks a lot, guys. Now I'm on a waiting list for an Armalite AR-10A2 at the local hardware store. I didn't even realize that I needed one until reading this thread. Shawn, if I were you, I would speak with everyone concerned who will be perhaps shooting, defending, patrolling, etc and see whether you can all standardize somehow the weapon and cartridge you will use. When the chips are down you don't need 47 different cartridge/magazine combinations to provide for. The fewer the better. When someone yells, "I'm out!", and someone else throws them a magazine (under fire, in the rain, at night, while treating wounded at the casualty collection point by feel with no artificial light), IT SHOULD FIT.

Paul

[BarryinIN]

A combat veteran once told me this regarding sharing magazines:
"If anyone asks me for one of my magazines, he better have a big pile of dead bodies in front of him already or he won't get any of my ammo".

[pjh421]

With all due respect, Barry, I've served with hot dogs like that before. Next thing you know, there's a hole in the perimeter and you have to turn around and fire toward the center (big no no where I come from). We win as a team and we lose as a team.

Paul

[StarMetal]

The best AK type rifle to get is the CZ V58. Better then the AK and it has some very good improvements, plus a milled receiver and it's lighter then a stamped AK. It's also very accurate and the safety is much better ergonomically.

[mike in co]

The best AK type rifle to get is the CZ V58. Better then the AK and it has some very good improvements, plus a milled receiver and it's lighter then a stamped AK. It's also very accurate and the safety is much better ergonomically.

but you did not tell him how much the mags are....

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I was poking around another forum on "Survivalist" stuff, and they have an area of guns, and also semi-auto . . . they mentioned the Bulgarian SLR-95 or SSR 85C as being really good, with The Yugo M70 also being almost as good, and the Romanian being near the bottom of the rung . . .

So . . . How much are those CZ V58 mags?

[mike in co]

I was poking around another forum on "Survivalist" stuff, and they have an area of guns, and also semi-auto . . . they mentioned the Bulgarian SLR-95 or SSR 85C as being really good, with The Yugo M70 also being almost as good, and the Romanian being near the bottom of the rung . . .

So . . . How much are those CZ V58 mags?


msrp on the rifle WAS over $1000 and it is now discontinued by cz.

the mags..still some on hand are $39 each.....not quite like a 10 dollar ak mag...


mike in co

[StarMetal]

but you did not tell him how much the mags are....

Mike, Mike, Mike.....you know I checked that out:
http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/spare-parts-and-accessories/vz-58-parts-and-accessories/?list=6

How many do you need? And you can buy the folding stock model rifles for $489. Not from the site the cheaper then your qutoed $39 magazines are on. You need to investigate this stuff more carefully my friend.

Joe

[a.squibload]

Where to get the V58 folders for $489? Just what I've been looking for...

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Get the FAL. Cartriges are everywhere. Rifle is the easiest to clean from the breach. They are as accurate a Battle Rifle as you could want. Very simple to maintain. Reliable !
I own Garands, M1A´s and Fal´s. For the present day money the FAL has all the others beat.
Ammo.. I was in 2 hardware stores this last time up that had NO 30-06.. they no longer stock it. Plenty of 308. I was in several other hardware stores that had 1 type of 30-06 but several 308. Sure some gunshops have a good selection of 30-06 but how long is that going to last in survival situations.
I like my Garands.. But I sure will not think it is a magical tool just because it was the best battle rifle 70 years ago. If I have to defend my back door 20 rounds is far superior to 8. If I have the opportunity to keep the scum 200 yards out.. 20 rounds is still superior to 8.
I like my M1A´s... But the buy into one today.. I can get the FAL with 10 magazines and 500 rounds of surplas 308 far cheaper that just the M1A rifle.

[NickSS]

If you have recoil issues with the 270 you will have them with the 308. Personally The AK 47 is basically a good reliable rifle but they are inaccurate. I have owned six of them and still have a couple and to tell the truth they both shoot 12 inch groups at 200 yards from a bench rest. In my humble opinion they are too inaccurate for what you want. I have owned M1As, FALs and H&K 91 in 308 all shoot fairly well. The M1a is the best of the lot. It handles better and has better sights. I have fired thousands of rounds of 308 in them and they can be counted on to make hits out to at least 500 yards for a GI one but if it is a tuned rifle you should be able to make hits out to 1000 yards. I do not know why you are against a 223 as you can hand load them with good 64 gr big game bullets which will down a man or a Deer at a couple hundred yards easy. However, a 308 is definitely more powerful. A 6.8 SPC is a better cartridge than the 7.62X39 as it is flatter shooting and the rifles are more accurate. However, there is no cheap ammo available in that caliber and it is not as good as the 308. Myself I use an M1 Garand and an M1 Carbine. The carbine has good short range firepower and is much more accurate than an AK and the M1 Garand can fire 32 aimed shots in one minute and is as accurate as the M1a. Mine cost me $94 from the DCM years ago and its been tuned and has a Kreger 308 barrel on it and I can hit what I aim at out to 600 yards with ease.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

M1 Carbine with 110gr hp @1800fps = 272 ft lbs @200 yards
.223 with 70gr Spitzer @2700 fps = 561 ft lbs @200 yards
7.62X39 with 130gr hp @2100 fps = 760 ft lbs @200 yards
.308 with 165gr bt @2600fps = 1688 ft lbs @200 yards
30-06 with 165gr bt @2800fps = 1990 ft lbs @200 yards

.357 mag in 4" bbl revolver with 158gr hp @1200fps = 413 ft lbs @50 yards

Data taken from Speers reloading manual . . .

[mike in co]

the M1 Garand can fire 32 aimed shots in one minute and is as accurate as the M1a.


sorry but there may have been one guy that did thet one time but it is just plain bs .
that is less than 2 seconds per aimed shot with no time for the three clip insertions....
how much time to pull a clip out from storage(belt pocket,etc), unshoulder rifle, insert clip and reshoulder rifle ??

as far as ak accuracy...you get what you pay for in ammo.....

buy wolf and similar and it is spray amd pray...

not so with rp or norma......

a bunch of us shot a 3gun match with ak's. all did well and the only common complaint was slow mag changes. ( harder than an ar, but also lack of practice)

and i don't think he ever said he was recoil sensitive with the 270 ?

123 dont worry about book numbers..all the rifles we are talking about will ge the job done.
esp if you were to open your eyes and go with the ar's.........ammo at half the cost, better accuracy, low recoil, great quality.

[mike in co]

Mike, Mike, Mike.....you know I checked that out:
http://www.czechpoint-usa.com/products/spare-parts-and-accessories/vz-58-parts-and-accessories/?list=6

How many do you need? And you can buy the folding stock model rifles for $489. Not from the site the cheaper then your qutoed $39 magazines are on. You need to investigate this stuff more carefully my friend.

Joe

nice source...great prices( yes i only looked at new from cz)

now where is your source for the $500 folder ? new ??

mike

[StarMetal]

nice source...great prices( yes i only looked at new from cz)

now where is your source for the $500 folder ? new ??

mike

Classicarms.com

But if you buy the rifle from Czeckpoint they are guaranteed

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I ended up getting two Polish 1960 model AK's with the milled receivers, these came with what is pictured, plus I ordered 4 more mags from Classic Arms . . . gonna clean them, and if my wife comes home in time, hopefully we will take them out today!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/AK47sNew.jpg

I'm gonna add a recoil pad to mine to lengthen the pull . . . sure is short, but should be fine for my wife.