Case neck tension, are people just dumb or what ?

[Willbird]

Many of us folks learned how to load from our dad, or another older person who raised us right.

And we try to pass that on.....

I think we ALL pretty much know that a crimp is really no substitute for neck tension...for some things with Boolits we can get by with almost NO neck tension...but we never use a crimp instead.

Lately I have tried to splain this to folks on another forum, and they just do not seem to grasp it.

In some cases they are ending up with bullets for say 44 magnum loads where they can push the loaded round against the edge of the bench by hand and seat the bullet deeper, then proclaim the proper crimp is achieved when you can no longer move the bullet that way. In extreme cases after seating and crimping the bullet you can SPIN the bullet around by hand.........but it does not move if you poress the loaded round against the bench edge :-).

GRRRR :-).



Bill

[45 2.1]

I think we ALL pretty much know that a crimp is really no substitute for neck tension...for some things with Boolits we can get by with almost NO neck tension...but we never use a crimp instead. Uhhhh. that isn't quite correct. I use some Very soft alloy and large boolits................. I don't want the case squeezing the boolit smaller............. and the powder i'm useing to get very good accuracy needs some retardation to burn right............ I use a crimp then.......works great. I also crimp very soft paper patched boolits for some of the same reasons. Lots of things and methodologies going on here than can be imagined......................

[44man]

Soft lead in revolvers was common long ago. Even old dies did not provide tension, having very fat expanders. Crimp alone worked OK with the powders and seemed OK even up to 2400.
But if accuracy is wanted with the slow powders, tension is a must, even more so if mag primers are used. That means hard boolits to resist sizing. Hot primers can drive a boolit out through the tightest crimp, even the tightest tension.
Now consider putting a hard crimp on soft lead. Look at fired cases and if there is still some crimp showing, the boolit was scraped, sized when shot. All the care used to prevent sizing when seating and crimping is out the window. Forcing a boolit through a crimp that will not iron out because the boolit is too soft makes little sense.
I will not use mag primers in the .44 or .45 using 296 even with the most case tension I can get. I made that mistake yesterday. I had loaded a bunch of .45's with WW primers to test. Then I put a higher front site on the gun so I could file it to sight it. It grouped so bad I actually missed the paper at 50 yards a few times.
About half done I remembered what primers I used so I had to shoot the whole box up to get rid of them. Now I have no idea where my new sight really shoots.
Back to Fed 150's to start over. I really hate "go bang" loads.
On top of that, think of the extreme boolit slump using soft lead in a revolver.
So thinking about my groups (or patterns) I checked my boolits. Water dropped WW metal that started out at 22 BHN after aging.
They are now 16 to 18 BHN from sitting too long.
My best groups start at 22 and get better at 25 BHN so I need to make a new alloy or oven harden the boolits I have left.
It is what it is! [smilie=p:

[Willbird]

I think we ALL pretty much know that a crimp is really no substitute for neck tension...for some things with Boolits we can get by with almost NO neck tension...but we never use a crimp instead. Uhhhh. that isn't quite correct. I use some Very soft alloy and large boolits................. I don't want the case squeezing the boolit smaller............. and the powder i'm useing to get very good accuracy needs some retardation to burn right............ I use a crimp then.......works great. I also crimp very soft paper patched boolits for some of the same reasons. Lots of things and methodologies going on here than can be imagined......................

I'm still gonna go out on a limb, and say that whatever neck tension is there, is doing most of the work :-).

Your a smart guy for sure, there is no need to debate that...

But lets just concentrate on garden variety reloads then...none of the special stuff we know and love.....

Just garden variety blasting ammo for typically pistols and revolvers......we would not hand seat bullets with thumb pressure, and use crimp instead of neck tension to hold the bullets in :-). And we would not teach a guy new to the bench to thumb seat bullets more or less, and use a crimp to hold them in.

if we could spin the bullets around in the case after seating and crimping, we would address that situation pronto :-).

Felix has opined that the case neck opens up even before the bullet moves (more in rifle ammo I suspect) and this can sort of be confirmed because say 22-250 once fired brass STILL has the factory crimp on the case mouth, and will often hold a bullet well enough to establish a seating depth for example...this irons out in the the next few loadings.

Bill

[45 2.1]

. On top of that, think of the extreme boolit slump using soft lead in a revolver.
So thinking about my groups (or patterns) I checked my boolits. Water dropped WW metal that started out at 22 BHN after aging.
They are now 16 to 18 BHN from sitting too long.
My best groups start at 22 and get better at 25 BHN so I need to make a new alloy or oven harden the boolits I have left.
It is what it is! [smilie=p:
Hey Jim, not a whole lot of folks shoot gut busting loads/high pressure loadings like you do. What you say is fine for the load level your useing, but it isn't quite as applicable to LOW PRESSURE LOADS. Other things work better there.



I'm still gonna go out on a limb, and say that whatever neck tension is there, is doing most of the work :-).
What work........ making it go bang or producing real accuracy in place of poor accuracy without the crimp?

Your a smart guy for sure, there is no need to debate that...

But lets just concentrate on garden variety reloads then...none of the special stuff we know and love..... Hee hee hee...........

Just garden variety blasting ammo for typically pistols and revolvers......we would not hand seat bullets with thumb pressure, and use crimp instead of neck tension to hold the bullets in :-). Well, there are several folks who reload black powder cartridges that way for blasting ammo, and some of those actually use the modern equivalent of smokeless bulk powder to do the same thing. And we would not teach a guy new to the bench to thumb seat bullets more or less, and use a crimp to hold them in.

if we could spin the bullets around in the case after seating and crimping, we would address that situation pronto :-). hee hee, I know your point and agree with it. I just don't like blanket type statements...........:shock:

Felix has opined that the case neck opens up even before the bullet moves (more in rifle ammo I suspect) and this can sort of be confirmed because say 22-250 once fired brass STILL has the factory crimp on the case mouth, and will often hold a bullet well enough to establish a seating depth for example...this irons out in the the next few loadings.

Bill

[Rocky Raab]

Some people are smart.
Some people are stupid.
Some people are sane.
Some people are crazy.

Sadly, they all reload.

[jonk]

When I reload black powder for my trap door, I often don't size the cases. I just fill it up with the appropriate powder amount, drop a wad on it, hand seat the bullets to the top of the wad, and apply a light roll crimp to keep it in place.

Zero neck tension.

Shoots like a house on fire. Largely because without sizing the case, I can use pure soft lead bullets sized to .462, whereas if I size the case first it sizes for .457" bullets- useless in my oversized .460 trapdoor.

Though it is a pain to clean and I usually don't use black in any gun that must be cleaned from the muzzle. In which case I usually use a charge of 4759 or 5744 with dacron wad and similar hand seat and roll crimp. If I go to a slower powder, I would need some neck tension, yes.

I do like to use bp more in my Mauser 71 and 71/84 with removable bolts.

[Marlin Hunter]

When I reload black powder for my trap door, I often don't size the cases. I just fill it up with the appropriate powder amount, drop a wad on it, hand seat the bullets to the top of the wad, and apply a light roll crimp to keep it in place.

Zero neck tension.




But your TD is a single shot. You don't have to worry about recoil causing the boolit to move.

A friend of mine had some boolit pull out of the case and stop the cylinder from moving on his S&W 41 mag. The factory didn't crimp the bollits tight enough. I don't think neck tension was a factor. The boolits could not be moved by hand. The gun worked like one of those kinetic bullet hammers.

[prs]

Its pretty obvious that those who know their reloading "niche" know what works best for them. In general, for me at least, I do not rely upon crimps for boolit retention. I go for the best fit of boolit to case and use a few "tricks" to optimize that at times. My "niche" involves pretty soft alloy, unchilled WW, berm scrap, or 40:1. Mostly 45 Colt with .454 boolits, black powder revolver/lever gun and only occasional demands for accuracy on the order of minute of grapefruit. My only need for crimp is in the tube magazine of rifles and that is served well enough with minimal crimps, just enough to hide the end of the rim in the crimp groove. I use a larger than typical internal size die. I ran an experiment where I noted it was much more difficult to pull boolits with my loads than when similar loads were made with typical internal sizers and firm roll crimp. YMMV.

prs

[montana_charlie]

The discussion slides unnoticed from single shot rifle to magazine fed, and from long guns to hand guns...including revolvers.

.22 Long Rifle is a cartridge used in all types (though rarely handloaded) but appears to rely on 'crimp' more than 'neck tension'...since the bullet will spin in a properly loaded round of ammunition.

Does crimp alone work because it is beng used with the rebated bullet...or because it IS a suitable means of stabilizing overall length?
CM

[Doc Highwall]

I read it some where that you cannot get more then .002" neck tension because the brass just stretches and with a lead bullet anything over that will just start to size the bullet. I shoot mostly rifles and I make my expander's .001" to .002" max smaller then the size of my sized bullet, with my 30 caliber guns I size my bullets .3095" or .310" and my expander's measure .309" or a couple of tenths smaller and works great.

[Willbird]

That is why 22 lr does not survive the washing macine :-).

But the case walls are very thin, and the bullet is nearly pure lead. it has been so long since I have bought really expensive 22 ammo (eley red box, one box when I was a kid) I do not remember if the bullets were more snug in the cases or not. The figure of .0016 is often quoted as what brass springs back after sizing or expanding. So an expander plug that is the same as bullet size would probably give you .0016 neck tension IF the sozer die reduced the neck enough for the expander to do anything. In some cases (Star loader running RP cases in 45 acp for example) the expander never does a thing because the brass is so thin the sizer die does not reduce it enough.

For rifles that in theory should shoot 1/4 moa with good bullets and brass I shoot for .001 to .0015 neck tension.

[fredj338]

Unfortunately, too many new reloaders are being dupped into thinking crimp is everything. Thus the LFCD craze. You are right, there is no substiute for proper neck tension in any center fire round that must feed from a magazine or stay put in a rev cyl. I make sure my expanders are no larger than 0.002" smaller than bullet dia. Seems to have worked for me for the last 30+yrs. The crimp just finishes off the round.

[454PB]

I've read where people have actually sized a boolit by seating it, but it hasn't happened to me.

Some time ago, I had a problem with squibs in my .454, and actually stuck a boolit half way down the barrel. I pulled the boolits from the remaining rounds and measured them. They were still .452" after pulling, and were tight enough in the cases that you could see the lube grooves through the brass. These boolits were relatively soft at 14 BHN.

I HAVE seen boolits sized within the case by using a Lee factory crimp die.

[mdi]

I "discovered" neck tension/crimping/LFC die swaging when I started reloading for an overbore Puma in .44 Mag. For my handguns, I prefer a tight neck and a mediun to heavy roll crimp. No problems there; .430" boolits, .430" cylinder throats, and .429" to .430" bores. For my Puma I need .432"+ so I'll try for less neck tension with a med. roll crimp on a Ranch Dog .433" boolit. Works for me...

[Doc Highwall]

For a rifle like my 1895 Marlin with 400+ grain bullets loaded 1700+ fps I would consider crimping, but using the least amount that I could get away with. In a smaller caliber recoil is not as much as a factor like shooting heavy bullets that pull out of the case due to recoil or a tubular magazine . Heavy revolver loads with something like a 44mag need a crimp too, but neck tension is important to all loaded ammo even if it is not crimped. Those who would think that neck tension does not make a difference have not seen what can be done with a good gun and load shot by a good shooter and will be amazed by the results of jacketed or cast bullets.

[mpmarty]

On all my bottle necked rifle cases I check then by slipping a new bullet into the case neck before processing the lot of cases. If any case won't allow a bullet to slip into the neck easily I set that case aside to have its neck turned. With cast boolits I crimp just enough to turn the bell back straight and therefore rely on neck tension to hold the boolit.

[poisonivie]

I've not been loading long enough to offer advice but I do have a question. On the 22LR topic, is that not an entirely different scenario because it is a heeled bullet and the crimp has nothing to do with the bullet seating in the bore?

[303Guy]

....
For rifles that in theory should shoot 1/4 moa with good bullets and brass I shoot for .001 to .0015 neck tension.This leads to the question (a little off topic); for which caliber? And then, is that for annealed necks? How does neck wall thickness affect that figure?

[303Guy]

poisonivie

Hornet shooters often use a tight crimp to improve accuracy with j-word loads. I don't. I use a heavy boolit and heavy load with zero neck tension, to get consistant burn. That's with a particular powder - Lil'Gun.

A hollow based, heeled boolit might just gain a little extra 'drag' from the hollow tail skirt expanding into the crimp. Just a thought.

[Doc Highwall]

I would say that the .001" to .0015" is for all calibers irregardless of wall thickness. The hardness of the brass is more important in the fact that work harden brass will spring back more and softer brass will not spring back as much. The reason wall thickness does not matter is your expander size is what controls the inside diameter of your case neck before you seat the bullet. I do want to size the outside of the case neck as little as possible and the wall thickness of the case does affect this and is the reason I like to use Redding bushing dies and Lee's collet neck dies. Right now my best shooting gun for cast bullets is my Remington 40X in 308 Winchester and I use the Lee collet neck die with my own home made M-die. Depending on the gun I would say that neck tension can be as little as being able to seat the bullet by hand like some of the people that shoot PP bullets to .002" maxium press fit.

[44man]

I've read where people have actually sized a boolit by seating it, but it hasn't happened to me.

Some time ago, I had a problem with squibs in my .454, and actually stuck a boolit half way down the barrel. I pulled the boolits from the remaining rounds and measured them. They were still .452" after pulling, and were tight enough in the cases that you could see the lube grooves through the brass. These boolits were relatively soft at 14 BHN.

I HAVE seen boolits sized within the case by using a Lee factory crimp die.
We had a lot of squib loads in the .454 when working loads. I had to carry a brass rod and hammer down to the range. That is caused by the SR primer that has a lot of pressure but no heat. Most powder did not light off. Only full charges cured it but did not help with high ES's. We cured it by using cut down .460 brass and LP mag primers. Accuracy doubled.

[44man]

Hey Jim, not a whole lot of folks shoot gut busting loads/high pressure loadings like you do. What you say is fine for the load level your useing, but it isn't quite as applicable to LOW PRESSURE LOADS. Other things work better there.
Not true, none of my loads are max but I do like heavy boolits for hunting.
Now I proved that real hard 245 gr boolits in my .44 along with good tension also cut groups more then half. The closer I got to 30 BHN, the better they shot. That was with Unique and 231. Fast powders are more damaging to boolits then 296.
What you call low pressure loads are dumping the peak pressure right away against the boolit instead of a steady push down the bore. True, final pressure might be low but it is where it peaks that counts.
Bullseye, Unique, RD, 231, etc will ruin a soft boolit faster then the speed of light! [smilie=1:

[45 2.1]

How about some honest answers to the following, instead of running around the issue?
Not true, none of my loads are max Nothing was said about max, but you say the loads are heavy..... certainly much to heavy for a Colt SA among others. That qualifies as a heavy load. but I do like heavy boolits for hunting.
Now I proved that real hard 245 gr boolits in my .44 along with good tension Nope, you said many times equal tension sorted by how the indicator showed while loading. also cut groups more then half. Half of what? I've got some 44 Special loads that do everything yours do (within ballistic capabilities)......... chronographed to 1 fps velocity spread at normal 44 Special factory velocities and lower. The closer I got to 30 BHN, the better they shot. If you check it out, maybe you'll find that the pressure level you're at requires something that hard. Best loads usually have the boolit hardness/toughness matched to the pressure level used. That was with Unique and 231. Fast powders are more damaging to boolits then 296. bunch..................
What you call low pressure loads are dumping the peak pressure right away against the boolit instead of a steady push down the bore. True, final pressure might be low but it is where it peaks that counts.
Bullseye, Unique, RD, 231, etc will ruin a soft boolit faster then the speed of light! [smilie=1: I know your stuck on the way you do it, But lets here your method of shooting a K frame S&W 38 special revolver. Outline just what you would do. This should be entertaining if your really serious about what you say.

[44man]

How about some honest answers to the following, instead of running around the issue?
Not true, none of my loads are max Nothing was said about max, but you say the loads are heavy..... certainly much to heavy for a Colt SA among others. That qualifies as a heavy load. but I do like heavy boolits for hunting.
Now I proved that real hard 245 gr boolits in my .44 along with good tension Nope, you said many times equal tension sorted by how the indicator showed while loading. also cut groups more then half. Half of what? I've got some 44 Special loads that do everything yours do (within ballistic capabilities)......... chronographed to 1 fps velocity spread at normal 44 Special factory velocities and lower. The closer I got to 30 BHN, the better they shot. If you check it out, maybe you'll find that the pressure level you're at requires something that hard. Best loads usually have the boolit hardness/toughness matched to the pressure level used. That was with Unique and 231. Fast powders are more damaging to boolits then 296. bunch..................
What you call low pressure loads are dumping the peak pressure right away against the boolit instead of a steady push down the bore. True, final pressure might be low but it is where it peaks that counts.
Bullseye, Unique, RD, 231, etc will ruin a soft boolit faster then the speed of light! [smilie=1: I know your stuck on the way you do it, But lets here your method of shooting a K frame S&W 38 special revolver. Outline just what you would do. This should be entertaining if your really serious about what you say.
Boy you are hard to please! :bigsmyl2:
It is true that case tension being even is more accurate but I have explained that a little looser tension is not bad compared to a tighter tension but POI will be far different at the target. I explained that if you sort a looser tension from tight and shoot a group with each, you CAN shoot 1" or under at 50 yards with EACH but POI can be as much as 10" apart. What you don't want to do is mix them because you will have 10" groups or at least two separate small groups that far apart. Now mix the whole batch of loads from looser to tighter and see what you get! They will fill in the rest of the target.
The part you keep missing is the fact I shoot a lot of light loads in the .44 and .45 using Unique and 231, most use 7 gr of either. Then you also miss the fact that I use 240 to 250 gr Keith boolits for light loads.
Now when I say I cut groups in half by hardening boolits, that is what I mean. Since light loads are for close range to 50 yards for me, cans, etc, I started at 25 yards with many different loads and if I was getting 2" at 25 I could get down to 1" or less by making the boolits harder and it helped at 50 yards too but with a Keith, only so much.
I spent many hours long ago cleaning S&W .38's for the police at West Cleveland shooting range. Solid lead inside and OUTSIDE of every revolver. The light was dawning on me back then so if I still had my K .38 shooting wad cutters, I would be using 25 to 28 BHN today. Why would that gun be different?
But look at these targets shot with 7 and 10 gr of powder. Now I ran about 200 shots making these tests over a few weeks and started with soft lead working up to 28 to 30 BHN. Most targets were so bad I tossed them and had to clean out leading over and over. Leading stopped at around 22 BHN and if you look at my patch after 30 BHN you see there is no lead on it. These were shot with the RCBS 245 gr PB.
Did I cut groups in half? YOU BET I DID! :kidding:

[45 2.1]

I spent many hours long ago cleaning S&W .38's for the police at West Cleveland shooting range. Solid lead inside and OUTSIDE of every revolver. The light was dawning on me back then so if I still had my K .38 shooting wad cutters, I would be using 25 to 28 BHN today. Why would that gun be different? Give it a try.........

[44man]

Now let me take the 245 RCBS up with 296. I shot these at 50 yards using hard lead. They are about the best I can do with a Keith.

[44man]

I spent many hours long ago cleaning S&W .38's for the police at West Cleveland shooting range. Solid lead inside and OUTSIDE of every revolver. The light was dawning on me back then so if I still had my K .38 shooting wad cutters, I would be using 25 to 28 BHN today. Why would that gun be different? Give it a try.........
I no longer have the K model or a .357. Can you do it for us to see what happens? Slowly step up hardness.
I had to sell some fine guns to buy others.
I would like to show a primer test done with the RD 265 gr boolit from my .44 at 50 yards. Using 296 with my deer load I tried the WW primer. I have often said that a mag primer is not needed or desirable in the .44 or .45 because it triples groups. I get a ton of resistance over it because the books say they are needed. I only go to a LP mag primer with larger cases like the .454 using cut down .460 brass, .475, 45-70, etc.
99% of my shooting for 54 years has not been just shooting but testing until I find what works in each caliber. My loads will work in any gun of the same caliber until boolits get too heavy for a S&W. The RD 265 shoots wonderful out of it.

[45 2.1]

I no longer have the K model or a .357. Can you do it for us to see what happens?

Jim, your the guy who says hard will work better in everything. Your going to have to show us...........yourself.... in a cartridge that is weak........ie the 38 special. We've had folks post much better groups useing Keiths at the same distances than what you show above. Keiths even do extremely well at 100 yds and farther.............. 44 Mag rifles show that the boolit is quite accurate and stabile there also.

[44man]

Jim, your the guy who says hard will work better in everything. Your going to have to show us...........yourself.... in a cartridge that is weak........ie the 38 special. We've had folks post much better groups useing Keiths at the same distances than what you show above. Keiths even do extremely well at 100 yds and farther.............. 44 Mag rifles show that the boolit is quite accurate and stabile there also.
Sorry, never got a Keith to shoot like I want. I shoot LBT's and RNFP's to 500 meters but the Keith gives out long before.
I talk average, not one super group by accident.
Now please show me anyone that has shot 1" groups at 100 yards with a Keith.
I don't have a .38---it is a useless caliber for hunting deer.
Since IHMSA days are long gone, I only hunt deer. No need for little guns.